The Eucharist and Catholic Social Teaching, Part 1: The Eucharist Commits Us to the Poor

In 2022, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) announced that the Church in this country would undertake a Eucharistic Revival, as a way to bolster Catholics’ belief in the real presence of Christ–body, blood, soul, and divinity–in the Eucharist. This Eucharistic Revival will culminate in a nationwide pilgrimage to the city of Indianapolis in July 2024. In the months leading up to this pilgrimage, the McGrath Institute for Church Life is contributing to this revival by underscoring the intrinsic connection between the Eucharist and Catholic social teaching. 

Why are we concerned about the link between Eucharistic devotion among Catholics and our commitment to social justice? Because the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that “the Eucharist commits us to the poor” (CCC, n. 1397). Because Pope Benedict XVI declared in his encyclical Deus Caritas Est that “A Eucharist which does not pass over into the concrete practice of love is intrinsically fragmented” (Deus Caritas Est, n.14. ). And because we have it on good authority that whenever we feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, shelter the homeless, welcome the stranger, we encounter Christ, Who assures that whatever you have done to the least among you, you do for me (cf. Matthew 25:31-46). Thus our devotion to the Body of Christ in the Eucharist must be accompanied by our equally fervent devotion to serve the entire human family, especially the poor and those who are in any way oppressed. 

This theme will be taken up by the Office of Life and Human Dignity at the McGrath Institute for Church Life in an eight-part series of Conversations That Matter. In our first event, moderator Michael Baxter, Ph.D., ‘83 M.Div., visiting associate professor at the McGrath Institute, will be joined by Jennifer Newsome Martin, Ph.D. and Emmanuel Katongole, Ph.D., both professors of Theology at the University of Notre Dame, and William T. Cavanaugh, Ph.D. '84, a Notre Dame alum and professor of Catholic Studies and director of the Center for World Catholicism and Intercultural Theology at DePaul University. They will explore the intrinsic connection between the Eucharist and Catholic Social Teaching, especially as it concerns the poor. Join us as we ask how, why, and in what ways “the Eucharist commits us to the poor.”

Thanks for listening! The ThinkND Podcast is brought to you by ThinkND, the University of Notre Dame's online learning community. We connect you with videos, podcasts, articles, courses, and other resources to inspire minds and spark conversations on topics that matter to you — everything from faith and politics, to science, technology, and your career.

• Learn more about ThinkND and register for upcoming live events at think.nd.edu.
• Join our LinkedIn community for updates, episode clips, and more.

Transcript

0:06

Hi, welcome to the Spring 2024 edition of Conversations That Matter. For those of you who are new, welcome, and for those of you who are returning participants, welcome back. Each semester, the McGrath Institute hosts a series of conversations around a topic of relevance to the Catholic intellectual tradition and pastoral life. In 2022, the USCCB announced plans for the Eucharistic revival. For which will culminate in a pilgrimage later this summer, when Catholics from around the country will gather in Indianapolis for a Eucharistic Congress. In light of the upcoming Congress, this spring series will discuss the effects or fruits of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. For in the words of Pope Benedict, a Eucharist which does not pass over into the concrete practice of love is intrinsically fragmented. The spring series will include this conversation and a second conversation in April. And now it is my pleasure to introduce the host of our series this semester, Michael Baxter. Michael Baxter joins the McGrath Institute as a visiting associate professor. He currently teaches at Regis University in Denver, Colorado. He has also held teaching appointments at DePaul University, the University of Dayton, and University of Notre Dame. Michael Baxter was a co founder of Andre House in Phoenix. and the Peter Klaver Catholic Worker in South Bend. He is currently a board member of the Tamarindo Foundation and support of village based social projects in El Salvador. Michael Baxter, I'll let you take it away. thank you very much. it's good to have everyone here and we have, as well as, me, we have three, people who will be speaking with us and discussing, having conversation about the Eucharist and Catholic social teaching. First, there's Professor Jennifer Newsome Martin, who's a Catholic, systematic theologian at the University of Notre Dame with joint appointments in the Department of Theology, as well as the Program of Liberal Studies, and is the, author of Hans Urs von Balthasar and the Critical Appropriation of Russian Religious Thought, which won an important award for theological promise in 2017. Secondly, we have Professor Emmanuel Katongole, who's a Catholic priest. from the Archdiocese of Kampala in Uganda, and a professor of theology and peace studies at the University of Notre Dame. He also has an appointment in the Keough School of Global Affairs and the Kroc Institute for International Peace Studies, as well as a appointment in theology and peace studies, and he is the author of 10 books. Most recently, Who Are My People? Love, Violence, and Christianity in Sub Saharan Africa. And our third participant is Professor William Cavanaugh, who is a professor of Catholic Studies at DePaul University and a director there of the Center for World Catholicism and Intercultural Theology, is the author of nine books, most recently just out from Oxford University Press, The Uses of Idolatry. So I want to thank these three people for coming to our panel. our conversation today, and the conversation is on the Eucharist and its implications for Catholic social teaching. In the context of the Eucharistic revival, we have the Church in the United States underscoring the importance of the real presence and the importance of Eucharistic devotion, central feature of Catholic life, the source and summit of the life of the One of the fruits of, the Eucharist, which is set forth in the Catechism, is that the Eucharist, commits us to the poor. And, we want to talk about that commitment to the poor and more broadly our commitment to Catholic social teaching in order to stress the link, the interconnection between Eucharistic piety and devotion and celebration and the command that we all have to, infuse the social order with, with our beliefs. And so it's in that spirit that we have this conversation. Today, and historically, in the Catholic Church, over the last 60 years or so, there really has been something of a divide between those who are interested in the liturgy, on the one hand, and then those who seem more committed and interested, in social justice, on the other hand, as if these were two separate entities. And what we find ourselves reflecting on is the fact that, actually, they're intrinsically connected. And, we want to underscore that link between, the Eucharist and Catholic social teaching in our conversation today. So that's the direction and the orientation that we'll be stressing. and, I'm going to ask Jenny Martin, we're going to be informal here. Jenny Martin, Professor Martin, will you, tell us what you think about this connection between the Eucharist and Catholic social teaching. And, how should we think about this? Get us started. Thank you so much for the question. I'm so delighted to be here with all of you. Thank you for coming to the webinar. I think I just, as I was listening to you describe the sort of diagnosis of the problem, I couldn't help but think It seems like, this kind of divide, this artificial divide, is really symptomatic of, it seems like a broader modern tendency to want to fragment and separate, rather than to see all of the Catholic doctrines and practices as really inherently integrated and mutually implicating. I think, when the celebration of the Eucharist, Is separated not only from, our obligation to the poor and our honor to give to the poor, but also from these broader dogmatic claims about the nature of God as Trinity, about Christology, about pneumatology, the Holy Spirit, it can sometimes feel. As if the Eucharist is something that we do, something that we show up. It's a practice that we do. It's something maybe merely religious or social. But I think if we understand it within the context of these broader dogmatic claims, it's really something that we receive as a gift, right? If we understand it in terms of what's really going on in the liturgy, and which in turn kind of prompts our own Turn to giving, right? I mean, I think to me, that's what's really helpful. I mean, I think someone like Baltazar is actually really helpful about, thinking about how some of these connections are made, how our dogma connects with our Eucharist, which connects with our actual praxis in Catholic social teaching. I could say more about Baltazar if you'd like. Yeah. Yeah, say so a little more about Balthazar and why you find him so important and helpful. Yes. well, he's not, you know, really the, maybe the first person, that comes to mind when you think about sacramental theologians. but you know, as many of you know, there's this really wonderful book recently came out with Notre Dame press in 2022 by Jonathan Sorallo called the Eucharistic Form of God, and he really kind of collects a lot of Balthasar's Eucharistic Theology in one place and really helps us to see exactly what the contribution is. I mean, for me, Balthasar really, he comes up with this idea called Existential Sacramental Theology, which I think is what it's, what he's wanting to do is to bring together all of the things that you've kind of lamented, have been separated. and it's operating at two different levels. The first is really more speculative about the nature of God as self giving, as surrendering, about the nature of Christ and the way that Christ becomes communicable in the Passion and in the Eucharist and given over to us. And then the second is, at the other level, has to do with the implications of this for ordinary Christian living. And so really all of it is connected with The fundamental motivating idea in Balthazar that, the very character of God is self gift and self communication and surrender and self abandonment, right? I mean, this is the Eucharistic logic at the source. and so for Balthazar, it's actually kind of a very striking, turn of phrase where he says that the Eucharist is God in the form of his givenness. in all of these forms, even before we get to mass, right, it's God in the form of his givenness. The Father gives himself to the Son and to the Spirit in these mutual relations of, kenosis. And then we can kind of come and participate in that. and so that really the, our response to all of this self gift, is obliges us to return with more gift, right? So we become participants in the Trinity when we give, ourselves to other people. So there's no, there is no divide, right? It's all the same logic. It's all the same kind of, obedience. to this pattern of the Eucharist, which is cosmic, which is Trinitarian, which is Christological, pneumatological, and has to do with how we are sort of treated other people and the porosity of ourselves when we, when we, you know, Extend ourselves for others, right? so it's actually a lovely idea. There's one line, that I think is really lovely, from Jonathan's book. I just was going to read it to you. he says the Eucharistic Christ causes those who receive him to become Eucharistic themselves. Christ's body itself dissolved is now a dissolving agent, right? And so then we can sort of turn ourselves toward the poor. of course this is picked up in Pope Benedict as well. you know, in Deus Ex Machina. So this idea then that as Christ pours himself out to us, we then get the power somehow. The grace, the capacity to pour ourselves out toward others. Yeah. I mean, it's like it's nothing other I think than what Augustin said in De Trinitate, right? I mean, it's not an innovation like a Balthazarian innovation. I mean, Augustin says we love our brother and we know the love That we love our brother with, and that is the love of God, right? It's not, we're not making kind of competitive choices between our liturgical practice. Right, exactly. So it's almost as if God acts upon us, which enables us to act in and for others. Almost making it natural or of a second nature. Yes, and that's the crucial point, I think, because it can't be thought of as this extrinsic relationship between the Eucharist and ethics, right? It has to be an intrinsic, sort of, internally related connection. It has to be this natural connection. It can't be something that we sort of feel obligated to do, sort of, as an alien imposition. But it's all participating in the same love. So I think you're absolutely, that's all I would say. I like this idea of, the phrase, a way of life, if there's a way of life that comes with the Eucharist rather than a set of commands or obligations. And, so this is really an important, comprehensive idea and vision Balthazar has of the whole cosmos, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. but then it makes me think, all right, so then how does this. How does this cash out on the local level? people have, questions about how am I to live? what should I do? What does this, maybe another way to put it, what does this look like? When we, when it's working the way people like Balthazar says it works, when the Eucharist has this power in our lives, what does it look like? And I'm going to ask Bill Kavanaugh to help us with this, because he knows what it looks like, I think. we've talked about that. yeah, I mean, I think I've seen it a few times, in my life. I hope so, anyway. Yeah, I mean, I'm struck by, Jenny, you mentioned, Augustine in, De Trinitate, in, in the confessions, he talks about, he, God says, you know, eat, I am the food of the fully grown, eat of this. And you won't assimilate me to your body like the food that you eat, but you'll be assimilated to me. and there's this wonderful sort of messing with the boundaries between me and you and God that happened in this Eucharist. And that seems to me to just come right out of. you know, 1 Corinthians 12, where this whole image of the body of Christ is, we're individual members that are each necessary. You know, the hand can't say to the foot, I don't need you, and that sort of thing. But at the same time, the boundaries, because we're all part of the same body, the boundaries are all kind of messed up. and he says that when one suffers all suffer together, and when one rejoices all rejoice together and the members of the body with a, that seem the least honorable are clothed with the greatest honor. And so on. and and then you combine that with Matthew 25 and it's Jesus saying it was me that you visited in prison and clothed and, you know, gave food to and so on. And so there's all of this kind of boundary breaking amongst me and you and mine and yours. And us and God. and that's the, so the sense then that you can actually get in practice of the kind of breaking down of boundaries. I mean, I'm thinking now, my parish has this wonderful, migrant ministry going on where we've, you know, Chicago has been flooded with, Venezuelan. Migrants that, many of whom have been bused north by the governor of Texas. And so we have this crisis, you know, in the middle of the winter. All of these people that come without places to say so. So the, our parish has opened up an extensive ministry and buildings that we have not been using, to feed and clothe and house and provide medical care for, these newcomers. And there's this real sense, I think, in the community. I mean, it's really energized our parish a lot. And there's this real sense, I think, in the community. of that same kind of crossing over boundaries that you get in the Eucharist. That the difference between me and you, between the giver and the recipient, you know, you go and you feel like you've been ministered to by people who, have crossed the Darien Gap with, you know, two of their kids. and come thousands of miles. you know, the difference between me and you sort of breaks down and the difference between mine and yours breaks down and you don't feel like you're providing, service, but you feel like you're listening to stories and, and it's all kind of coming. what being a member of the body of Christ, means is kind of coming home. in these sorts of, encounters. yeah. I remember, you know, a friend of mine, Joe Kropor, he's a priest here at Notre Dame. He, told me once that he was working down on the border near McAllen, Texas, I think it is, where Sister Norma is receiving all these people coming over the border. And he talked to one father who said, me and my son, his one year old son, we came from Guatemala. and Joe Kropor said, How did you get here? And he said, we walked. I said, well, how did your son walk all the way? and the father said, I carried him, you know, and that just that, of course, a father, any father would do that, but that. Talk about blurring the boundaries and so on and taking on each other's burdens. That's just a perfect example of it. And to be plugged in to that reality, big reality in our society today, somehow brings us close to, I guess, maybe what Balthazar would say, the heart of the world. This is where it's really being dramatized and, lived out in our society and that the Eucharist somehow draws us toward that type of event, in a very powerful way. last thing you would want to be is all by yourself after, you know, an hour devotion to the Eucharist in adoration. That's the last thing you want to be. What you, it has this outward impulse. But you know what else? I'm thinking, especially, blurring the boundaries in the divisions. One way that the divisions and the boundaries get blurred is not just the boundaries between us and God and each other, but also of nature or creation. And, I think, Emmanuel, I think that you would, have something to say about this with your remarkable work in Uganda and the reflections that it has, generated in you about the connection between the Eucharist and creation in documents such as Laudato Si and elsewhere. What do you have to, what do you have to say about this? Thanks for the invitation to be part of the conversation. It's indeed a great joy to be part of the conversation. As Michael mentioned, I am participating in the work of, Creation care, responding to the cry of the earth and the cry of the poor. Working with young people in the rural diocese of Carro in programs of reforestation, food, regenerative food sustainability, and simple economic livelihood, means for the young people that are poor, already being, inspired by the pops and cyclical thatto. See? And, this has drawn me deeper and deeper, not only into appreciating, the issues of, the connectedness between the cry of the earth and the cry of the poor, as Pope Francis says, that the two of them got together. But also the ways in which, we need integrated ways to think about this. It's just not one or the other, but integrated ways, which he calls integral ecology. And then when he kind of fleshes that out, he kind of talks about it as a spirituality, as a mindset, and a lifestyle. So he's writing this beautiful, encyclical, Audato si, reflecting on all that. And then towards the end. Over the encyclical, he comes to reflect, he's kind of winding down, then he comes to reflect on the connection that he sees with the Trinity, and then on the, with the Eucharist, in paragraph 236, especially. When he talks about, the Eucharist, there's a beautiful, beautiful passage, actually, that kind of really, teases out, all these different connections. listen, for example, some of the expression that he uses that, in the Eucharist, all that is created finds its greatest exhortation in the Eucharist. Which is, connected to I think what, Jenny was talking about for battle, that the Eucharist, God is the form of his givenness. and then for Francis, who said, the Eucharist is the living center of the universe, the overflowing core of love in a exhaustible life, the Eucharist joins Heaven and earth. It embraces and penetrates everything. So a very rich reflection really on the Eucharist that really establishes a very deep connection between the Eucharist and the care of creation out there. I think the way I'm reading this that he's making, two points really. The first one that when we participate in the Eucharist, we are immediately drawn out of that into the care for God's creation. There is no way that we can participate in creation, sorry, in the Eucharist without moving out. As he said again in that paragraph, that the Eucharist sends us forth into the world. It gives us energy, motivation, And a model. So there is a movement from the Eucharist, really, that sends us into the world, into the care of creation. But I see in this reflection also another claim that he's making, that there is another movement, in fact. It's not only that the Eucharist sends us into the world, but the care for creation for the poor, because the cry of the earth and the cry of the poor that work actually is itself an a eucharistic drama in of itself. That work itself, is Eucharist because in this paragraph it says The Eucharist is a spirituality which embraces and penetrates, EEE, everything. And when he talks about the Eucharist as a living center of the unified. I think he's making the claim that the Eucharist actually, sorry, the care for creation is a Eucharistic table, that right there in the care of creation, we are already participating in God's self giving life to the world, that we are already participating and therefore appreciating, this God's overabundant, love and care for God's creation. That we are participating in that flow, we are participating in that drama. If that drama, again to use what Jen says that Matilda says, if that drama is God in the form of God's givenness, we see that already in, in the careful creation, working with, you can see that givenness every day in the seeds that are kind of growing, then they mature, then they die, and then they feed other organisms. And so that whole interconnectedness of givenness that is already going on within, within a creation. But that participating in that, that one already participates, not only in this kind of form of givenness, but also in this sense of overflowing gratitude, that creation itself is kind of always singing. with a song of gratitude to, to God, singing a psalm or already, which is thanksgiving, which is Eucharistia, Eucharistain, to give thanks. it's already Eucharist. I can almost also make the claim that without actually that appreciation that comes with this kind of participation in that careful, without that, we will not even be We're disposed to understand what we do when we come to the Eucharistic table, when the priest takes the bread and wine and says, blessed are you, God of creation, through your goodness, you have given us this bread to offer, a foot of the earth, work of human hands. That is just a climax of that Thanksgiving that has already been recognized and seen and participated in. in the everyday work of creation as we participate within that drama of God's steady giving, love, to, to the world. So there is that deep connection, between, the Eucharist, the Eucharistic table, and the work of creation care that is so dynamic and intimate that I see that is going on. And that's a person also, what I'm beginning to appreciate more and more. As I engage this work of creation care, you know, quick thing, Michael, I just was so struck as he was talking. I mean, it's sometimes we are very concerned that we have to show that there's a connection between, Sort of the social, the Eucharist and the social. But as you were talking, Emmanuel, I just, you know, it's already social, it's always already social, right? I mean, we're always already participating in this kind of a social life, right, the life of the Trinity, the life that is, in the creation, all this sort of mysterious life that is always sort of pulsing in all the natural world. I mean, we don't have to make it. So it is already, so it's just the way it is. We just have to open our eyes. to see, you know, that it's already social and so that the, the connection is actually much more natural than we might expect otherwise. And it is in fact, it is in fact that participation, that, social embeddedness that we are already in, that to the extent that it filled with gratitude, with giving thanks, with appreciation of this kind of givenness, it is that actually. that in a way prepares us, that forms us, to appreciate what we are doing at the Eucharistic table. Without that, I'm almost saying we would have no clue of what is going on at the Eucharistic table apart from just kind of saying words. The words just become kind of more, mere words. it's through this kind of rich, dynamic, social, or practical engagement with God's creation that we are prepared to appreciate. What a true Eucharistic table. So the movement is not just from here, Eucharistic table to the world, but the movement is from the world into the Eucharist, that, that kind of dynamic. As it says right in the Mass, through, through your goodness, we have this bread and this wine to offer you. So that, like Irenaeus points out, it's really, The stuff of creation that is worked up in the Eucharist, to become the reality of Christ among us. I like that seamless connection between creation, our own role in it, between, all of us. There's no disconnect. There's no absolute individualism. We're all somehow connected. This is, something that's important for us to notice. I guess is what you're saying. It's already there. We're not creating it. It's just gives us the eyes to see it. I love it when, you know, at a mass, you see all these different people coming up for communion. people who are in different political parties, people are different sizes, different ages. all the different, people that are in the church get in the same communion line. And, in some way, it may be standing. in communion line, we acknowledge that we're all God's welfare recipients, that we're all receiving what God has to give us, and that we don't have anything truly that's ours that we haven't been given. So it's like what, Jenny, you were saying is that it almost becomes Natural to repeat that dynamic, with those that we see, uh, in the world that, that we wanna, serve or be with or accompany. any other thoughts here? Well, it seems to me that, part of what's motivating the separation, is the fear that, the more we talk about social justice and so on. That it becomes horizontal, right? That we forget about God and it becomes. Secularized. I think that's the fear of some people in the church that, if you get away from talking about the presence of Christ in the Eucharist and Eucharistic adoration, and start talking about what's going on in the world, that you're going to forget God, and that it's going to become, just another kind of secular exercise in, you know, God forgetfulness, you know. and there's a, I think there is a danger, in that, you know, we get, we, we sometimes forget when we think of the Eucharist as action, rather than presence. We sometimes think it's our action, you know, and there is a danger to that, but it seems to me that, so that's responding to a real fear, but the danger of that then becomes the sort of opposite that, that the Eucharist becomes opiate for the masses and it never touches down. You know, we become hypocrites because it has no effect on our actual lives. We might be working for terrible corporations and doing terrible things Monday through Friday, but on Sunday we fool ourselves and, and come, you know, to receive the Eucharist in this way that doesn't have any. Any actual effect in the world. So trying to bridge that divide, it seems to me like somebody like Dorothy Day had a sense that, if God doesn't change the world, then it's not going to be changed, right? we can't rely on our own efforts to do this. And so it's only through contact with God through the Eucharist and other means as well, it's only by relying entirely on God's grace. That change in the world is going to come about. Otherwise, we're just, we're lost, right? If we're, if this becomes an exercise of, ethics, you know, or we're just kind of relying on our own, on our own efforts. it seems like there's, both sides in this debate have legitimate. fears, or both sides of this divide. It's hardly ever a debate. It's more just a divide. Both sides have legitimate fears that could be addressed, precisely by a true appreciation of what God is doing for us in the Eucharist. You mentioned Dorothy Day. I'm thinking, you know, one time in the long loneliness, she mentions how one time she walked into the church that was in their neighborhood on the Lower East Side. where they had their hospitality house, in New York and the foundation of the Catholic Worker Movement and so on. And she was looking for Peter Morin and she couldn't find him at any of the houses, so she went down the street to the church and she found him there, sitting before the Eucharist. Not mass, but he was just making a visit, as they used to say. And, and he was talking. He was talking. He was always talking. He was talking and he was, and she could just hear him mumbling and muttering and, you know, getting his plans and so on. and just, This constant conversation with God and for someone like Peter Morin to go out on the street, to step out of the doors of the church and to talk about social reconstruction made total sense to him. A total sense. It was just, if you are gods, you will have a, an impulse that is intrinsically social. If you're paying attention to God. another thought about this very same thing, Dorothy Day at a particular moment in her life. at the outset of World War II had to decide what the Catholic workers stance would be during the Second World War. And they had been a pacifist movement up to that point. And she had to write an editorial after the Pearl Harbor and the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor in December of 1941. And, and she writes the editorial and If you read closely the editorial, she says here I am sitting in this church asking you, capital Y meaning God, what should I say? What should we do? We have 75, 000 readers of the Catholic Worker. What do we say at this time of war and rumors of war? And she was writing this editorial in front of the tabernacle. Asking God, you know, what can we say? And she finally says, you know, we are still pacifists. Our manifesto is the Sermon on the Mount. But it made total sense to her to think of the work of peace as beginning and really as being formed in the presence of the Eucharist. So for her, it was, Totally seamless like that. Yeah, Daniel Berrigan told a story of saying mass at the Catholic Orator House in New York and he had used a coffee mug for the chalice and afterwards one of the volunteers was going to wash it and Dorothy Day took it and kissed it and buried it in the backyard. That was because it held the blood of Christ. Yeah, so there's the sense that we all have, I think, of. The reverence of the Eucharist and, of the precious body and blood of Christ and, it makes total sense to regard other people with equal reverence that we should, that we really, it's totally natural to, to simply hold other people's lives in our hands in the way that we hold Christ's. the body and blood of Christ, the body of Christ in our hands, or we receive it in the tongue, and so on. Yeah, but that's comparable reverence. Yeah, Emmanuel. There is something within our context right now that is yeah, that goes against all that we have been saying about this deep social connection between the Eucharist. The Eucharist not only having social implication, the Eucharist is by nature social. There is a tendency that has, over the years, that has Created this gap. And my worry is that the more that gap is not repaired, the more then the Eucharist gets weaponized. It turns into this kind of neat spiritual weapon, actually, And we sit in so many ways that this is center of the universe. The center of our unity now becomes the source of actually, of, marginalization, of excluding, I don't know what is going on, with that, but I'm concerned more. My own sense is that of course the more there is that divide between the social and the spiritual, the more the spiritual then gets weaponized. But I'm just curious from you, gentlemen and lady, what do you think about that? that, that reality? I, When, Bill was talking about the, the precious blood in the coffee cup, I kept thinking about, you know, Balthazar is one of his very favorite poets, is Peggy, and he's, he spends a lot of time, Charles Peggy, the French poet, and, he talks all the time about, when Christ gives himself to be distributed in the Eucharist, he gives himself to the possibility of misuse and dis weaponization that you're talking about. he has this long, bit about, About Simeon holding the infant body of Christ in his hands, these old kind of wrinkled parchment hands. He's holding, you know, the creator of the universe in, his poor and withered and puckered up hands. And then he makes the connection that similarly, the Eucharist is distributed into our sinful hands, right? And and I don't know, I feel very strongly, what you're saying, that there's, the Eucharist should never be an instrument of, weaponization and shouldn't be made political, right? I mean, or politicized. I mean, it's, I guess it's always social. It's always has to do with the polis, but, I think, it's, It's a testament, I think, to this self abandonment I was talking about at the start that Christ kind of places himself into our hands, and what kind of, what astonishing kind of vulnerability and, like power that, you know, we have. I don't know, I would love to hear what Bill has to say or some of the others as well, but, I just, the image of Christ's infant body in the hands of Simeon and then his Eucharistic body in our hands every Sunday, it's Yeah, I mean, you know, I wrote a book on torture and Eucharist in which I talked about the excommunication of torturers, under the military regime in Chile, by a group of bishops, there and eventually, by the whole bishops conference, and defended the idea of excommunication, under those circumstances, and so, it's a tough matter. I mean, on the one hand, You want to say the situation in which you have torturers and the people they're torturing approaching the same Eucharistic table, you've got to speak a word of truth in that circumstance and say, this is not the Eucharist and this ought not, to be happening. but the, but I've become a lot more cautious. I mean, in other circumstances, Because, because of this kind of weaponization and politicization, of, of the idea of excommunication, especially in a context where you've got elections, right? I mean, one of the things that made the Chilean case different was that, nobody was running for election. It was happening in the context where, you know, political parties had been banned and it was the, the church was the kind of last, institutional resistance to human rights abuses under the military regime. and so nobody stood there. There was no one party that stood to gain by the bishops, action in that case, whereas, in the U. S. it's quite different. And I'm, I, you know, need to be a lot more cautious than that. I mean, I'm generally of the view of being, you know, as welcoming as possible to the Eucharistic table. But one of the things that when we recognize our divisions, we can kind of take the Eucharist more seriously too. And we recognize that we're not all approaching the same table in the same way. And we can lament. lament the divisions, as well. But, but the weaponization of it, I think, is a clear and present danger that I think we need to avoid. These are tough questions. Is it Eucharist, Eucharistic politics, and who gets to come to communion, who should be barred to communion? These have been, election year issues now for more than 20 years. It's probably going to continue. I often think, I worry about people, you know, not just politicians and their particular views on pro choice and what's, and so on, but also you know, I live out in Colorado and, you know, there's good Catholics who are sitting in those missile silos ready to turn the launch key on command. And I worry about that. And I feel like saying, you know, you guys need to think about this and, that there's so many different ways in which we could use the Eucharist as a challenge, or as maybe the Pope would say, a medicine to help us to recover and to see, to get our vision again, you know, the practice of racial segregation and so on was, you know, in Louisiana in the fifties, People were told they couldn't come to communion until they would integrate their schools and so on in certain parishes. So it really is a complicated issue and it is something to be cautious about. It might help to think of excommunication not as kicking people out, but as an act of hospitality, telling them this is what you need to do. You've already broken communion. And this is what you need to do to come back in. but of course in practice, that's, you know, when that's appropriate and when it's not is really difficult. It is. And I wish there'd be more conversations among bishops and theologians who take strong stands on these over dinner and for people to really talk as, friends. I mean, isn't it the case that in some, when we are gathered in the Eucharist, we are declaring ourselves friends with each other and friends, with God. That's how Aquinas defines charity, is friendship with God. And, in fact, he uses, in the Gospel of John, the quote of Jesus where he says, I call, I no longer call you servants but friends. And he, that's how he defines charity, Aquinas does in, in the Summa Theologiae. and so that idea of friendship with God, issuing forth in charity, with each other at the same table. It's a challenge for all of us. Other thoughts? We have a lot of questions on the floor here. Yeah, why don't we go to some questions from the folks listening. All right, I'm gonna read a question here. It says, A common trope is that it is with Vatican II that a new radical emphasis on social justice takes place. Even Catholic social teaching is a relatively modern phenomenon. initiated by Pope Leo. Can you discuss how this tie between the Eucharist and Catholic social teaching can serve as a cipher for finding other instances of Catholic social and political thought in, in history? well, one thing that occurs to me in answering this is the idea that, concern for social justice, you know, is a modern phenomenon. It's not really the case. if you look back to the early, centuries of the church, It was the bishops who took on the obligation of being what Peter Brown calls governors of the poor in the 4th and 5th centuries where bishops took on the role of caring for the poor. In fact, the early church in carrying out Jesus's command to love God and neighbor, really created a new category of person called the poor, to which Christians had an obligation, to help and to be in connection with. And, uh, in the fourth and fifth century, the first hospitals were formed, uh, the first public hospitals were formed out of this impulse that we have this connection between love of God and love of neighbor formulated by Jesus. And, so really there's a witness to the social teaching of the church from. From the start. From the start. Caritas is really built into the nature of the church. Go ahead, Jenny. You're about to say something. I was just going to say, as a former Protestant, of course, I'm going to go to Acts 2. 42, right, where they live together in communal possessions and the breaking of bread and the prayers. but you know, all things held in common around this sort of very early group of, you know, the early church in Acts. And even in Deus Caritas Est, I think Ratzinger, talks about this, where he says, you know, even though we can no longer kind of do this anymore where we cannot have the sort of material things in common, as maybe we did when the church movement was very small. He does say there, that within the community of believers there can never be room for a poverty that denies anyone what is needed for a dignified life. Right? I mean, so it's like the That is sort of continued through, and I think Pope Benedict sort of traces it all the way from, you know, from the second chapter of Acts, to Deis Caritas, as for sure, that, that the Eucharist has to be the starting point, the sort of engine for, for theological anthropology, for questions of human dignity, and for questions of social justice. You know, a great part of that encyclical, Deus Caritas Est, is where Benedict underscores the fact that the very office of the diaconate shows the commitment of the church to care for the poor, written into its structures of authority and ordination. Deacons are set aside in order to practice love and to care for those who need it. It's right there and that's in Acts 2. yeah, right. And even where he says the Logos became food for us as love, right? I mean, and the Deacons certainly participate in that sort of incarnational element. Yeah, I think this is a really important point to stress that this is not something new at all. It's something really quite old. And I think that's what, Henri Delivox, work has so helpfully pointed out, you know, that, he says that in the early church, the Eucharist was more of an action than a thing. And then he kind of traces how this gets inverted, you know, the terms that the church is the real body of Christ. and the Eucharist is the Eucharistic elements of the mystical body. And that gets eventually kind of reversed, in the high middle ages and then, gets, you know, increasingly. The Eucharist just becomes this thing, and that gets sort of privatized. So it's really, goes all the way back. And you can look at some of the Eucharistic practices in the middle ages to, you know, around war making, for example, the idea that you had to refrain from the Eucharist and do penance, if you shed blood in war. Indicates that there, you know, this is not the connection between the Eucharist and questions of war and peace and economics and so on is not at all new. so re, recovering the, you know, deepest vein of the tradition of the church, I think is what we're called to now. Emmanuel. Yes. What do you have for us here? No, I was thinking about the connection that you're all making and kind of reflecting and the reality in Africa, where actually many people cannot attend the Eucharist, participate in the Eucharist. Part of it is because of the distances and so forth. So maybe once in two months, that's when the priest is able to come to. Area and they celebrate the Eucharist. so think about the many congregations that are not able to receive to, to participate in this eucharistic exercises, E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E every week where there are kind of eucharistic, deserts. but how we can also help and help them to kind of appreciate the kind of the overall eucharistic tenure of their life. in the everyday practices as well. But at the same time, I was also thinking about the politics of the Eucharist and how the Eucharist is very, often used, rather than inviting, receiving. And I like this beautiful expression that Jen has provided of Simeon, is Old, wrinkled, dirty hands kind of really holding this fragile, guard. Yeah, but many, there is a very heavy, in times also, moralistic tone to the Eucharist that actually, almost kind of pushes people Way more than inviting them into this space of standing before God. So I'm just kind of having so many thoughts going on, but thinking more specifically about the reality in Africa, and the many ways in which the Eucharist operates, not as a space of welcome, of receiving, of gratitude, but in many ways also a sense of You know, we have a message from one of our listeners and I just want to read it because it speaks to exactly this point. I think there's a question here, but the question starts out with a really helpful statement. in homily 27 on 1st Corinthians, St. John Chrysostom says that the church exists for those divided to come together. He says that, he says, this is true of the Eucharistic liturgy and it shapes how we look at the poor. And then here's the question. Can you address how the Eucharist and caring for the marginalized creates or expands the true nature of the churches, the church as united? I'm going to give a, I'll give a little story to just get this. this idea going. I was at church, a couple of weeks ago, in Denver, and at St. Elizabeth's Parish, we have a soup kitchen, and I was putting the soup on, downstairs, and it's Sunday morning, it's before Mass, about 8. 30, that 9 o'clock Mass is coming up, and there were three or four people, very devout, in church, praying, obviously, before Mass, in devotion to the Eucharist, and it was very powerful. how focused and quiet people were. Maybe six or seven people scattered about the church. And then I said, well, okay, I'm going to go turn down the soup before mass starts. And, I left. And as I was leaving, there's a homeless guy in the back, with his knapsack on, you know, and, you know, and his duffel bag and so on. And, and there he was praying with everyone. And I thought, this is so perfect. of how the Eucharist brings everyone together apart from distinctions and so on. and it just struck me how natural it was to, on the one hand, go to Mass, wait for Communion, and then right after Mass to serve on a soup line. that the dynamic is the same. is the same. and it happens all over the world, all over the world. sometimes we overlook, how much is being done out of the energy of the Eucharist, and the activity of the Eucharist. Other thoughts? Just, I was thinking, it also does a lot to, disabuse us of the idea that the poor are, is like a homogenous kind of category of, you know, them, and then us, right? Yeah, the outside. I mean, so I think that what you're saying really strikes me. I mean, I've, volunteered a bit, you know, teaching great books, things at our Center for the Homeless, and one of the things that's so powerful is, talking about Antigone or Shakespeare, you know, around people who have no homes, but not giving them 5. But saying, you know, what do you think? Do you think Antigone made the right choice when she buried her brother? Right? I mean, so it's a mutuality. We're all sitting around the table together. And if that can happen, talking about a Greek tragedy, it surely should happen when we're around the Eucharistic table. Right? So there's not, the divisions aren't as present. I'm reading some beautiful reflections in the chat actually. Yeah. Go ahead. Read one, Emmanuel. Well, Anonymous attendee, I love the idea of the Eucharist as the table and altar that we approach to practice the united social fabric that we seek in the mystical body of Christ. I think many Catholics are struggling with why they should commit to being Catholic and to, in quotation, going to church, because they struggle to live in, to live the Eucharist in their life outside Mass. The Eucharist each Sunday doesn't really make a difference for the rest of the 167 hours of the week look like. Instead of the Eucharist being truly the source and summit of our life, the first principle of givenness and thanksgiving and unity from which the rest of our lives stem from, we try to live out the Eucharist in pre existing cultures whose goals are antithetical to the Eucharist. Is that sort of embeddedness in a culture what Catholicism are about? Or should this tension between what the rest of our lives are oriented toward and what the Eucharist is oriented toward be troubling for a Catholic? Beautiful reflection and question. yeah. And I think I'm sorry. Go ahead, please. I was just going to say, I think the practice of adoration certainly is a chastening of what the culture is saying to produce, do this. But here we are just simply receiving. I think there's something really powerful about I feel that tension and I think it's a salutary attention. Sorry, Bill. Yeah. Oh, no. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, just to piggyback on that, I guess the question about this troubling tension with the rest of our lives. Bill. You know, even if we're serving the poor, but we're not asking why are people poor, then it's not a complete Eucharist. You know, if we're, I mean, there, there is a way of seeing Christ in the poor that cons, it becomes another act of consumption, right, for our own spiritual lives, that we meet, people. in dire situations and say, oh, I see Christ in you, but don't actually kind of, address the larger situation of why people are in these dire straits, to begin with. it becomes another, kind of ornament for our spiritual lives, and that ought to trouble us, I think, really deeply. maybe one thought to close on it, connects with what Jenny was saying about adoration and some of what Bill is starting to say. that we need to think of the Eucharist, not just as, the body and blood of Christ, the body, blood, soul, and video of Christ, but also in the way we set it aside an entire day. As God's day, the Lord's day. in many ways that's cultivates the kind of, attitude of reception of receiving a gift that, that we're called to, in the Eucharist that we have a certain receptivity. And if we set aside a day in order to receive what God has to give us. and set aside our work, that, that kind of disposes us to get the proper horizon to see what's really going on in the world. Um, it should kind of perfect our vision of, of our lives and where we're heading. So there's this kind of eschatological, or eternal dimension to the Eucharist that, frees us to, to do the kind of things that we're talking about here. But you know what, we've gone on for one hour and two minutes, we're supposed to, stop at this point, but, I really want to thank you all for, Jenny and Bill and Emmanuel for, for giving us, so much to think about. I want to thank everyone who's tuned in, for tuning in and for listening with us. And, we hope continuing this conversation, we hope that we have helped to, enhance and continue the conversation that all of us are called to be in as in this year of Eucharistic revival. let's pray that it's a fruitful revival and that one of the fruits is our increased and deepened commitment to the poor. for that, I want to thank you all. It's certainly gotten me thinking a lot and, I'm sorry all you out there whose questions were not answered, but if you contact us, we'll try to answer them. We have another conversation in the middle of April coming up and the same topic emphasizing a little more community building and Eucharistic culture. but for now, we, we want to thank you all for coming in, and again, thank you, Jenny, Bill, and Emmanuel for this wonderful conversation. Thanks, Mike. Thanks, everybody. Thank you, everybody. Have a good day.