Reunion 2024: Does Your Work Matter to God?

We receive many strong and clear messages that our work matters in general, but fewer messages that this work matters from a faith perspective. To strengthen the link between Sundays and Mondays through Fridays, this seminar will ponder questions including whether and why God cares about what work we choose to do, what motivates us to do that work, how we measure success in that work, and the impact our work has on ourselves, our loved ones, and society in general. 

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Transcript

Joe Holt 0:06

welcome back to your home away from home, Domers. June, marks my 20th anniversary at Notre Dame. So I started in June of four. I went to five different schools. I taught at another six or seven. And I've always said I've never been anywhere where there's a more loyal, generous, devoted alumni network. That's really extraordinary when you ask alumni to be guest speakers and all that kind of thing. That was good. Got something really special, going on here, I'm Joe Holt. I teach in the Business School in the Management Department. I have a confused past. I was a Jesuit seminarian priest for 12 years. I had, degrees in Philosophy, Theology. I studied Hebrew and Christian Scripture over at the Gregorian University, one of the Vatican Universities over in Rome. As a Jesuit, I taught business ethics. My concern then and my concern now is how do people connect Sunday with Monday through Friday. The topic today is up my alley, if at all. But I found when I talked to people in business or law, I'd get a polite hearing, but there'd always be a little smile like, nice idea, but you have no idea what it's actually like. when I left the Jesuits, my friends on Wall Street said, Why don't you find out what it's like? So I did a brief stint as a stockbroker, in New York, and then I went to, law school in the Boston area, and then practiced corporate law for about, five and a half years, while teaching a course on spirituality at work in Loyola Chicago's MBA program in the evening. And, then I taught at University of Chicago Law School, and I directed their clinic on entrepreneurship. Me and the law and business students helped low income inner city entrepreneurs start up grow businesses. And then I came here, 20 years ago. business school, I I do spirituality of leadership, course. I do business ethics, I do international ethics, I do non profit ethics. I do, sustainability, I do gender equity class that I created with the MBA women, leaders. I do business law, I do a lot of negotiations, I just do different things on different days. that's me. Anyway, this topic is extremely near and dear to my heart. If I had to pick, of the things I care about everything I teach, this is the one I care about the most, so, pleasure to be talking about this, with you. question, just to get thoughts in the room. If you were asked to give a talk on this topic in your local parish, whatever your faith community is, to a group of high school students who are beginning to think about what do they want to major in, what do they want their career path to be, what would you say? Not working again. I'll just do it manually. I've done this in Africa where the electricity went out and I had to make it up for seven hours or so. We can work with it. Anyway, so give me something you would say to them or not. Does the God you believe in care about the work that you do?

Audience 2:42

When my activities are about the service of others, making a contribution to a greater good and not a self interest, that's when I feel closest connected to me. My activities are providing a meaningful and serving others.

Joe Holt 3:02

It's interesting you should say that. In Catholic social teaching, What makes your work a calling rather than a job or career is that you do it with a concern for the common good rather than concern for yourself or your firm. that you are trying to help other people, in general. that's great. That's powerful. Other thoughts? These are all fantastic. There's a Jesuit professor I had when I was getting my MDiv who was talking about, the will of God. He said a lot of people have this notion of the will of God as something concrete, predetermined, God wants me to do some specific thing. His point was that, maybe yes, maybe no. There are some people in Scripture for whom God did have a definite plan, Abraham, Moses, John the Baptist, Mary, Paul. But there are quite a few people. There was no indication that he had anything that specific. But he said the other thing to take seriously is that God also gave us imagination. So part of it is to, look at your talents, your skills, your passions, your dreams, and then use your imagination, to think about how could you best put those to use, to serve. getting back to that point, there was a line I was gonna share later, but I can bring it up now. Aristotle had this marvelous formula. for finding your calling, and it was where your talents and the needs of the world intersect, there lies your vocation. Where your talents and needs of the world intersect. So first look in. What are my talents, my passions, my dreams, my skills? Then look outside of you. What are the most pressing needs of the world you, you live in? When you find the best possible use to which you can put your talent to address one of the pressing needs, then you've, then you've got a calling. Which is a technical way to Think about it. I had a Jesuit friend who, a degree in theology, who's also really good at science, and he was going to be doing, doctoral and then postdoctoral work in science, and he was deciding what he could do with that doctoral degree in science. he could be a doctor, could be a teacher of doctors, could be a research scientist trying to find a cure for Alzheimer's, MS, anything like that. to your point, Any one of those would be a pudding to use his talents, his skills. He chose to do the research part of it. but, but, imagination is not like a hood ornament on a car. It was given to us for a reason. so his point was that, what God's will for you is undeniably is to flourish as the unique individual God has made you to be. So take who God has made you to be seriously and flourish as that person. I had a friend, I went to that Catholic school in the Boston area, so I had a friend in the 80s who was an education major, loved teaching, students loved her, but it was the 80s, it was bright lights, big city, Gordon Gekko and all that, people going off to Wall Street and making a ton of money. So she didn't feel successful enough if she just went into teaching, so she went to Wall Street. And she did okay, but within a year or two she had an ulcer and she wasn't happy and all this kind of a thing. And then eventually she went back to teaching and is still doing that and loves it, but that was just not her talent, her gift was not that. She knew what she was called to do, but didn't do it. And by the way, there are people, God needs some good people on Wall Street too, so they could be that. I also teach ethics and finance. Did you ever see, there's this book I use, you can actually order it on Amazon. It's called The Complete Book of Wall Street Ethics. Ever seen this? It's 200 pages, all the pages are blank. I use it as a discussion piece. is that actually true? I suggest it is not, because if you don't have trust, it doesn't work. yes, the room behind you. Yeah. Absolutely.

Audience 6:36

Yeah, so I might, yeah, I mean I, you're talking about teaching, all these things, Prioritizing a list of user enhancements. No to what? To rely on God's list that, Prioritizing a list of user enhancements for a software product, Those things don't feel

Joe Holt 6:53

So you think, Let's say Mother Teresa, instead of doing what she did with her life, decided to become a healthcare administrator of a big hospital chain.

Audience 7:03

Did you think God

Joe Holt 7:03

would care about that?

Audience 7:05

Yeah, Healthcare, you're getting into areas that really touch I'm just saying Yeah, Yeah, software for SEC filing is

Joe Holt 7:11

very useful. It's interesting for me as a Jesuit, the question is not, am I doing a good thing for a Jesuit? The question is, am I doing the best possible thing I could be doing? It's the greater glory of God. It's just, it's just given my talents, given my connections, given everything I have in life, am I making the best possible use I could? out of those to do what I could do. I had a Jesuit friend who was from Italy and became a multi millionaire before he was 30, that then he in, then he became a Jesuit and he was concerned about poverty in Nicaragua after the Sandinista revolution in there in 79. And he's saying I could go down there and work in a refugee camp or something like that, but he said with my background, maybe I could help them change policy so there'd be less poverty in the first place. So he applied to the doctoral program at Harvard, he spent one year in Cambridge, Wrote his dissertation on the Nicaraguan economy and got him to change policies, so there'd be less poverty in the first place. So to him, that's the other things would be perfectly fine things to do, but they wouldn't be the best things he could be doing, given his background. He's, by the way, still down there, doing that work, 40 years later. yes?

Audience 8:15

Are we going to talk about how you figure out what your talents are and what you're good at and what you're supposed to look for?

Joe Holt 8:23

Yeah, part of it, the formula I just gave you is, I think, a key to it. Another part of it, I had some undergrads ask me a couple of years ago, how do you choose the right major? And I said, there's some practical considerations that go into that. But I said, the number one question I would ask is, would you ever read a book in this subject area if it weren't required? Because if the answer to that question is yes, then you're actually interested in what you're majoring in. And it's not going to feel like a chore if the answer to that question is no, then you're actually not interested in what you are majoring in. And by the way, having majored in something for four years that you're not interested in, you are likely to get a job you were also not interested in. to me that's what are you intrinsically motivated to do? I gave a talk when I was at the University of Chicago of meaning, money, and the avoidance of misery in the practice of law. My point was, by the way, I was going to give a talk on finding joy in the practice of law. And the University of Chicago student said, nobody will They're anti Joy. meaning, money meaning avoidance of misery, that pact of notoriety. But my point was that unless you find some meaning beyond the money and what you do for a living, you will be more or less miserable. Unless you have a reason for getting out of bed on Monday morning, besides the fact that you need a paycheck. You'll be more or less miserable. That's the point. You feel like you're making some kind of difference. is it?

Audience 9:37

Responding to the question that's up on the board, if I were a major in your career, I'm a major, but as I go through life, and very few, I think very few people, when they are a high school senior, know what they want to do in their life. Some people are destined to be a doctor, they know it, I admire that. When I came out of high school, I didn't know what I wanted to be, but I had an advisor, and he said, You're good in, chemistry, and you're good in, mathematics. You should be a chemical engineer. So I came here, and I got a degree in chemical engineering. I went to Northwestern and got a master's in chemical engineering, at which time I decided I didn't want to be a chemist. My advice is, follow your interests. A major is not necessarily your career, but follow your interest in life, and God, and bring God with you.

Joe Holt 10:57

Yeah. you added it's not always, the major is not always connected with career, but it often is. Most people go into engineering, do some engineering, then they go on to something else later on. People who study law do law teaching, do teachers, the accountant students generally go into accounting. Some of them don't. But, but a lot do. So it can be a connection. My advice on that one is, like I said, life is like this treasure hunt where at every step you get a clue that tells you how to get to the next step, but not to the end. And a lot of happiness is learning to be at peace with not knowing the end. it's so just be open minded, pay attention to the evidence that life and the Lord of Life are showing you. and to the question about discernment, where are you most at peace would be the number one question for the Jesuits. There's a wonderful St. Irenaeus in the like 3rd century said that the glory of God is a human person fully alive. I've always said when I make any decision in life, what I'm majoring in, what I'm doing for work, what I'm eating, my exercise program, who are my friends, where do I live? The question is where am I most alive in God and for others? To me, it's that simple. I'm much more alive. As a teacher here than I was at University of Chicago. I'm much more of a live teacher at University of Chicago than I was practicing corporate law. That's just me. there are people, I have a friend who's a CPA and a tax attorney and he loves it. God bless him. the world needs, people are good at that. So that, that, that's terrific. I'm glad he finds fulfillment, in that. So take, take that seriously. Interesting question in terms of how we end up where we are in life. I don't know if any of you are ministers or priests, but assuming most of you are not, how did you end up being a layperson? in church when they pray for vocations, what are they praying for? Priests, sisters, all of that, right? So the idea is that, so that's what you think of as having a vocation, and so basically, for a lot of people, I didn't decide to become a priest or a sister or a minister, So I ended up being a layperson. So me being a layperson was a result of me having not made a particular choice. It's not something I specifically chose to do. I think it is true for most of us. There was a, former leader of the Jesuits. Peter Colvenbach, who is saying that being a layperson, being a member of the laity, is one state of life among others that you can choose in order to live out your faith. In order to serve the kingdom of God, you ought to choose it. I'm choosing to be a layperson, I'm choosing to be married or single, everything ought to be a choice, not the result of not making a choice. This is the best way I can do it. St. Thomas More, the man for all seasons. Thanks. was married, had kids and all that. When he was young, he thought about becoming a priest and he said, I decided I'd rather be a, good husband and father than a bad priest. so for him, that was just, he was gonna be a better Christian as a husband and father than as a priest. so make it a choice is the point. But I would say for a lot of us, it is really not a choice. It's really just just, I ended up being a lay person. Because I didn't choose to be anything else, is it. So it's just, how reflective am I about big choices in life? I asked the students here, what percentage of your classmates went on to college, and it's almost everybody, and I said, only about a third of them, Americans over 25 have a bachelor's degree, so you're not normal. in that sense, but I said, for how many of you was going from high school to college a critically reflective choice? How much do you think maybe I'll do that and maybe I won't, or for how many of you is it just a given? And I think for the vast majority it's just a given. Which to me, that's I don't think it ought to be just a given. I think it ought to be something you, think about. there, so I think that's, part of what we could, what we could work on. there's a Jesuit spiritual writer, Thomas Green, who makes this distinction between working for God, And doing God's work that I find really, thought provoking. And he does it based on this passage from Luke 10 about Martha and Mary. both Martha and Mary care about Jesus. Most of them are concerned to do something for him. But think about the difference between how Martha and Mary go about that. So Jesus and his disciples were on their way home. He came to a village where a woman named Martha opened her home to him. She had a sister called Mary who sat at the Lord's feet listening to what he said. But Martha was distracted by all the preparations that had to be made. She came to him and asked him, Lord, don't you care that my sister has left me to do the work by myself? Tell her to help me. Martha of Martha, the Lord answered, you were worried, upset about many things, but few things are needed, or indeed only one. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her. So what's the difference between Martha and Mary? They both care about Jesus, both concerned to do something for Him. What's the difference? Between how they decide what they're going to do for her?

Audience 15:32

It reminds me of a concept I've learned over the years, there's two types of people, those that, feel, what's important is who's important, and others that say what's important. Okay. and Okay. The what's important part is a rare commodity that is In this case, Mary chose what's important. Martha was currently concerned about who's important.

Joe Holt 15:59

Right, And sitting at his feet and trying to figure what's on his mind, what his care about. The key thing is that Martha chose what it was. Martha's very confident that she knows what it's most important to be doing, and she sets herself to doing that. Mary does not, and Mary's just setting it to Lord's feet. Trying to listen to what he has to say. the, distinction there is that, deciding on your own. If I, the question I ask the MBA students in spirituality class is, for how many of you was your decision of a career path a faith based decision? to what extent was your faith at all involved in that choice? The vast majority, it was not. there are people who consider themselves like good Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, whatever their faith is, but that wasn't part of it. They say, it's pretty interesting. When you're thinking about, how are you going to spend most of your time, talent, and energy in life, in your person of faith, and your faith has nothing to do with how you answer that question? That's interesting. So that's, I'm deciding what I'm going to do with my life based on something other than my faith. So I'm gonna be a successful business person, a successful doctor, a lawyer, whatever. And then I'll use whatever money influence I gain to help out those in need to help out the poor. So I'm gonna do something for God, but I'm gonna decide what it is. so that is working for God. so that's Martha. doing God's work is trying to discern what is it that God wants me to do, trying to ask the Lord for guidance. Please let me know what it is he would most like me to do. in life and then setting about that. interesting example would be Paul before conversion and Paul after conversion. So Paul before conversion was rounding up Christians and killing them, right? If you asked him was he doing something for God, what do you think he would have said? Absolutely. Wholeheartedly. Energetically. Day in, day out. Was he doing what God wanted him to be doing? no. So that would be working for God. Working assiduously for God. So before conversion, working for God. After conversion, doing God's work. Make any sense? there. So the question I ask is, so far in your career, are you working for God or doing God's work? When I practice corporate law, by the way, as a stockbroker, I would sometimes pray, Lord, if you're going to come back, could you delay it a few years? I'm going to get back to doing good stuff. By the way, those can be very good things. There are people who are called to that,

Audience 18:21

I think there's a challenge sometimes, like, when it's something that's like a fly picture, but when you're actually in the weeds doing the work itself, I think that's a challenge. And you're getting to the point of burnout, it almost feels like you can forget the bigger, motivation, right? Yeah. Of doing God's work. So one example I have is, apparently in affordable housing, and the day to day part of actually developing these communities is very challenging. And with all the red tape and everything. So it can get very exhausting. But it's not until You get your TCO, and you open the building, and you have your first person who's been living in the car the last two or three years, that you see the fruit of that come out. So I think it feels like sometimes when we're doing kind of these, whether it's a corporal work of mercy or, something else that's so direct, even though it's direct, it's like deeper down, that connection isn't always there. Makes a lot of sense. I think of Martha and Mary, right? And Martha was so busy doing the actual work and preparing, and that's really good, and being there to serve our Lord. But, Mary was just fully present, the mindfulness part of it. So how can we merge the two? Because they're both good, they're both doing

Joe Holt 19:49

Yeah, Martha's not doing a bad thing. And her heart's in the right place. What's interesting is that what it says about what the Lord says to Martha What it says, Martha was distracted by all the preparations. So distraction is a kind of a key thing in the faith life. There's a Jesuit scholar, John Courtney Murray, who described an atheism of distraction in the marketplace. He said that, when I was in Rome, they talked a lot at the Vatican about practical atheism. So theoretical atheism is somebody who's thought about the question whether God exists and decided they believe that God doesn't exist. Practical atheism refers to somebody Who believes that God exists and they might even go to church, but the faith they profess makes no difference how they lead their lives. So on a practical level, you might as well be an atheist, for all the difference your faith is making to how you conduct yourself. That's kind of it. But atheism and distraction can lead to that. It's not a result of a particular choice, again. It's you get tied up with so many things, it can easily happen. It's interesting, at the business school, we did a workshop for leaders of Catholic charities for a number of years. And, they, like a lot of non profit folks, are always pressured to do more and more with less and less. And they're on the edge of burnout a lot of times. I asked them one day, I said, Did Jesus heal and feed a lot of people? They said yes. I said, Did Jesus feed and heal as many people as he could have? What do you think? No, not even close. why not? Is it because he wasn't loving enough? Too lazy? Why not? Because they're trying to feed and heal as many people as they can. yes?

Audience 21:20

my answer to that is that if God would have taken care of everybody, that leaves nothing for us to do.

Joe Holt 21:26

Good point. yeah, because to me that's true, because feeding and healing people was important, but not the only thing that was important. The other thing he did was important was forming his disciples. doing the coaching and the mentoring of other people on your team. And sometimes he just took time to go off to the mountain by himself. Just a prayer, reflection, all of that. But that was important. I do a big section on solitude and leadership. I gave a talk in Silicon Valley before the pandemic on solitude and leadership. The importance of kind of stepping back. Incredible essay, by the way, if you want to read it, called Solitude and Leadership by William Dereshowitz. You can Google it. It's an American scholar. there, but, out of curiosity, how many of you, exercise on a regular basis? What would you be like if you had to go two or three weeks and you couldn't exercise at all? Would you be fun to be around? My wife Megan sometimes, stands by the front door of the gym bag saying, Go on, go off. They're always happy when you come back, so go off and do that. Cause it feels like the exercise has become such an integral part of your life that it feels like You feel off if you don't get to do it. It feels like something is missing. when we were living in Chicago, I went to the export gym that was down the street, and about five, six years ago there was a stretch of about two weeks in Chicago where the high temperature was minus five. And I went there after five o'clock on a weekday, and the gym was jam packed. Couldn't get a treadmill, elliptical, whatever. So people were that committed to their physical well being. That they weren't going to miss a workout day, even though it was minus, minus five, or whatever, and I was there, but that's fine. But what would our lives be like if we were that committed to our intellectual and spiritual well being? If prayer, meditation, whatever works, yoga, whatever works for you, became such an integral part of your life that you feel off if you don't get to do it. It feels like something's missing if you don't get to do it. That's because for Jesus, there was that kind of rhythm. Also honored the Sabbath. It's interesting with the Sabbath, I studied Hebrew and Christian scripture over in Rome, and when we think about the Sabbath, we think about what you're not supposed to do, you're not supposed to work. But there's also a positive part of it, to keep the day holy. The word holy in Hebrew is kadosh, and kadosh comes from the root to separate or cut off. So what is holy is what is separate or to cut off from what's not holy. So Jerusalem's a holy city, separated for God's purposes, the Israelites and the Christians are holy people, separated for God's purposes, the temple and the church are holy buildings, separated for God's purposes, goes on like that. So to keep a day holy means to keep the day separated or cut off from other days, for God's purposes. So to step back, you've always got stuff to do, but step back from that once a week and just recall the larger purpose you have in life, the bigger picture sort of thing. My take is that most, Christians I know practice, I call it Sabbath minimalism. I'll set aside 45 minutes to an hour for church, and then the rest of the day I just do whatever I do on any other day. If you, anybody ever been in Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, by the way? how much is going on? You, right? Yeah. you need to go to press the button. Shabbat goi. yeah. Nothing going on unless you go to the Christian Muslim quarter. So it really is a different day. there I've sometimes been good about doing that and sometimes not. But I find when I am good about doing that, I I'm excited, more productive the rest of the week. But it's easier to recall that kind of larger purpose that you're about. It's giving it the time that it deserves, in life. So that's a challenge for me. okay. Next one, job, career, calling. So how would you distinguish the three? When do you have, when does somebody have just a job? Most of us in high school, college, whatever, have the job you do for spending money. oh yeah, I worked at a gas station on cars in high school for a few years and all that kind of thing. I had a friend who loved skiing so he got a job in a restaurant In Vail, Colorado, just so he could, to pay for his rent so he could go off and ski. Be a ski bum, that was just a job for him. He just needed whatever would pay the bills for him. When does a job become a career? What's the difference there? Professional expert. Professional expertise, knowledge of some kind. Yeah, and usually, there's a, kind of a sense of progress, career development. You don't hear everybody talking about job development. So a job is just, you do what you do. And if you did it for 40 years, you'd still be doing the same thing. is it a career making progress? When does it become a calling? By the way, we call it a calling, but a Jesuit friend of mine pointed out, actually from our point of view, it's really responding. It's God does a calling, and what we do is respond to that. probably better to call it responding. anyway.

Audience 26:05

When you wake up without an alarm clock.

Joe Holt 26:08

Ah, nice. Warren Buffett talks about tap dancing to work. and by the way, why is he even working? is he 90 yet even? Let's say he doesn't need to work financially. I was once in my chiropractor's office in Chicago and, sitting in the waiting room by myself and who walked in but, Ross from Friends, David Schwimmer. So this is after Friends was over and he was working in a little theater. Looking Glass Theatre, in Chicago. And I said, would you mind if I asked you a question? He said, no. I said, I would imagine that financially you don't need to be doing any work. Why are you still doing that? And he said, I just love it. So, if I won the lottery tomorrow, I'd still do what I'm doing full time. do you feel that way about your work or not? They call it sometimes your life work. You feel like this is what I came in the world to do. is it? You're intrinsically motivated to do it. That's the, the question. So this was a question, raised before, by the way, do you have to be like a doctor, a nurse, a social worker doing some life saving sort of thing to have a calling when a, it's all that personal feeling of

Audience 27:13

SEC filing, like software stuff, right? You feel like a higher calling of I'm protecting people by doing what I'm doing, or however you've layered down to. I think it's important to include in this conversation

Joe Holt 27:29

unpaid work, like

Audience 27:31

being a full

Joe Holt 27:34

time parent or

Audience 27:36

a volunteer. Yeah, my best

Joe Holt 27:40

friend from

Audience 27:41

law

Joe Holt 27:42

school is a corporate executive and At a very high level. And I asked him, does he have a job for a calling? And he said, what I do for a paycheck is a career. My calling is to be a great husband, father, involved. He's in the Greek Orthodox faith community. That's his thing. and there are people I know, like when I practice corporate law, there are people for whom the work they did day in, day out was a career. Their pro bono work was their calling. They did volunteer work on the side. So calling can be paid or unpaid. It can be full time or part time. So do you feel called to doing this all the time or just part of the time as something you had to figure out with God? Yes?

Audience 28:20

I think the calling ties into the service of others as your purpose is self and some self return.

Joe Holt 28:33

Yeah, and you can be, you can be a heart surgeon and concerned to restore somebody to being and back to their loved ones and you can be a heart surgeon Doing the exact same thing. Who's concerned to make a lot of money or be known as a renowned heart surgeon? You know doing the same work, but from a spiritual moral point of view, it's very different depending on why are you doing? What you're doing is the question There when it was a Jesuit I volunteered as a nurse's aide with terminal cancer patients And, during a pandemic, I got my CNA and I worked in ICUs and hot zones as a, with, worst off COVID patients doing all that kind of thing. And, one of the Catholic hospitals where I was volunteering, the, administrators told the janitors, they said, you're part of the healthcare team. They said, you're in the patient's room often longer than the doctors are. That's a human encounter. Make it one. Talk, talk to them and so forth. also these people have no defenses, so they can't fight off. viruses and things, so whether or not they get sick depends a lot on how well you clean their rooms. Do you think that changed the way these janitors saw and understood their work? Yeah, absolutely. If that's what motivates them to do the cleaning they're doing day in, day out. that can be a calling, right? so getting back to the question that was asked, later. by the way, sometimes finding a calling requires changing what work I'm doing. Sometimes it requires changing not the work, but my mindset about it. Why am I doing what I'm doing? I just, an MBA student who, we were having this conversation, and he said, I thought about I'm not finding a calling but I decided I'm just going into financial services. So that can be a problem. I have an incredible financial advisor who really knows her stuff takes care of me the way that I would take care of my loved ones if I knew that stuff. so the central commandment in Christianity is to love, right? And love is an active concern for the well being of others. So if what motivates you to do what you're doing at work is an active concern for the well being of others, that is living out. Christian command to love, kind of thing. so that can perfectly well be, be calling. two people doing the same work, one might have a calling doing that work and the other not. Just depends in part on what you're doing, in part on the mindset about what you're, about what you're doing. based on your experience, percentage of folks who have a, calling, rather than job or career. Where'd you put the number? Fall apart. In the workplace in general. People you work with.

Audience 30:52

Five percent calling.

Joe Holt 30:55

Five percent. Ballpark agreeing with that? Small number. How many would say single digits? Below ten, so most of you would. Yeah, I've never heard anybody say like more than a quarter or something like that. so that is interesting, to me. folks who don't have a calling, is that because they looked for one but didn't find it? Found it, but concluded that they can't pursue it because it doesn't pay enough or whatever, or didn't look for one in the first place. What would your guess be? The last one? How does that happen? Isn't that kind of interesting? Because to me, all four of my grandparents were immigrants from Ireland and they all came over penniless. My dad's dad drove a bus up and down Fifth Avenue in the Bronx. My mom's dad dug tunnels between Manhattan and Brooklyn in New Jersey. My mom's mom was a cleaning woman on Wall Street. When I practiced law, the cleaning women were almost all Polish, and they said I was the only one who knew their names. They actually taught me some Polish, because I treated them the way I was, the way my grandmother was treated, doing that. So those folks, came over penniless. They didn't have a lot of opportunity to find a calling. I'm not saying they couldn't, it's just harder. They just did whatever they could to put food on the table. a lot of people in the world today living on less than two dollars a day, I'm not saying they can't have a calling, I'm just saying it's harder. throughout history, if you were born the child of a serf in the Middle Ages, you were probably going to be a serf. it's not like going to night school and working your way up. Jesus was born the son of a carpenter, he was a carpenter. it's just the way history has worked. But anybody on this campus could find a calling. or is free to find one. if you wanted to. So to me, to have the freedom to do that and not use it is interesting and a little sad, to me. But, my take on it is that most of us don't have a calling because most of us don't have a calling. If we lived in a society in which more than 90 percent of people had a calling, then I think young people growing up would be thinking more about having a calling. But because they grow up in a world in which most people don't have a calling and don't feel that way about work, then they don't grow up Thinking about that. Make any sense? Oprah once did this little show in some town in Iowa, where the whole town gets together under some big tent in the morning and they practice yoga. So I'm guessing if I grew up there, I'd be thinking about yoga. I'd be thinking about going to a center, whatever. so to me it's just interesting. And sometimes you can find one, and it's not practicable. And sometimes you don't find one, but not looking in the first place is If you could. Make a living that would enable you to have the life you want to have, plus you find it deeply fulfilling. And I describe it as looking forward to Monday as well as Friday. If you don't look forward to, Monday, then you don't enjoy what you're spending most of your time, talent, and energy doing. If you don't look forward to Friday, then you don't have a life. So the balance is somewhere between. But, why not at least try to look for that. I kid around here and say there's always career services on campuses. We need a calling services department, so we can put some stuff there. By the way, there are MBA students who talk about feeling discouraged from pursuing their calling. If they want to do, part of rankings is based on how much money our students make when they graduate, starting salaries. some of them feel pressure to become iBanking, consulting, take a higher paying position, rather than going into HR, sustainability, or something that their heart's more into, but pays less. for that, so that's something we sometimes need to wOrk on ourselves, I think. any school I've been at, that would be true. It's interesting. The Jesuits actually did an interesting thing in Chicago, like four or five years ago. They started this Arrupe Community College. They found there were a lot of people from poor backgrounds who were smart enough to go to college, but they can't pay fifty, sixty thousand dollars or more. So Arrupe College is a community college. They pay fifteen thousand a year, and it's a Jesuit school. You get a Jesuit education, and some of them go on to a four year degree, but they're paying fifteen instead of The law school I went to, got tired of people coming to law school saying they wanted to change the world, but then they go into debt and said, I'm gonna work in this Wall Street firm for a number of years, pay off my loans, then I'll go back to saving the world. Most of them don't go back to saving the world. They get the kind of the golden handcuffs. So they started this LIP program, low income protection program, where if you graduate from law school and accept a lower paying job, that's public service. So it could be being a public defender, DA, could be environmental law, human rights work, whatever. They pay your loans as long as you stay in that job. If you stay in that job ten years, they pay off your loans completely. If you stay in the job five years, they pay off your loan for five years, and then when you go back to the high paying job, then you have to start picking up the payments, but you don't have to pay them anything back. University of Chicago was starting that when I left in law school. That's kind of a cool thing. Scott Malpass used to be our chief investment officer. I think he's, I think he's a reunion this weekend. He was a guest speaker in an ethics and finance class. He was, he's incredible. But I asked him, what are you most proud of in the work you've done? And he said, the scholarship money. So the money we raised enables people to go to school who wouldn't be able to. Otherwise was his number one thing. So that's a real serious thing though. right, Yes?

Audience 36:04

I think all of us have a calling, which is Yeah,

Joe Holt 36:13

that, in theology

Audience 36:15

So 100 percent of us have that calling.

Joe Holt 36:18

that is the distinction between, God's general will for us and God's particular will for us. So the general will is to, be a person of faith, hope, and love and serve the Lord and all that. Particular will is, how's it going, why don't you spend your day? Okay. What work do you want to do? So that is, so thank you for making that distinction, but that is, that is true. so that's the Aristotle formula that I talked about, which I loved. so qualities of a good job. living in the U. S., if you hear that, somebody graduated from Notre Dame last spring and got a really good job, you don't know anything else about it, what would most people take that to mean? Pay a lot of money. Usually the answer is pay a lot of money or a prestigious firm. Somebody asks you who you're working for, you're proud to give the answer. and there's nothing wrong with a high paying job at a prestigious firm, but can you think of somebody who's got a high paying job at a prestigious firm for whom it's really not a good job for them? And if so, then why? So the question I, It's just to be brainstorming about, money and prestige is fine, but what are the other elements to go into a job that's really a good job for you? So what would you include in that bucket? Excuse me? Alignment with strengths. Alignment with strengths, so something you're really good at. Yeah.

Audience 37:35

Opportunities for development.

Joe Holt 37:37

Yeah, and to millennials and Gen Z that matter more. It's always mattered to them. It matters an incredible amount. Yes, please. Yeah, we're social beings, right? do you like and trust who you work with? do enjoy seeing the people you work with? Do you hang out outside of work? Do you enjoy each other's company? Or not? that makes a big difference. Yes, please. Yeah. have you ever had a job that you were like miserable at or been in a relationship with somebody who was miserable at their job? And when they come home at the end of the day, do you need to ask them how the day went? No. You can just tell, right? I do. I always say that the most important part of a leader's legacy is the shape your people are in when they come home at the end of the day. Do they walk through the door at the end of the day feeling encouraged or discouraged? Appreciated or taken for granted? Hopeful or despairing? That impacts them and it impacts all the relationships they're in as well. So as a leader, you can do that. I had a, this former Jesuit friend who, got his PhD at Harvard and then did the work in Nicaragua. I met him in Panama before the pandemic. I was doing some work down there. And he was interviewed and he was asked how he defined leader. Cause he's saying they, they, contribute money to teams based on leadership or not. He said a leader is someone with a proving track record of bringing out the best in others. I'd never heard that definition before. I love it. Proven track record of bringing, and believe in the potential of your people. You're committed to helping them realize their potential. You're committed to helping them flourish as unique individuals they're meant to be. There's a guy, Patrick Lencioni, who wrote this book, The Three Signs of a Miserable Job. One of the signs is anonymity. Anonymity is the sense that nobody around here cares about me as an individual. if I were gone tomorrow, they'd hire another body to do the same thing I'm doing, but nobody cares about What motivates me to do my work, my talents, my dreams, my hopes, anything like that. what Fran was talking about is the opposite of that. Do you want to know the other two signs, by the way? The second one was a word he made up called in measurement. In measurement is, there are some criteria on the basis of which it's decided who's going to get what bonus, promotion, choice, assignment, etc. But I can't figure out what those criteria are. I want to get better, but I don't know how to get better. What do we need to do? By the way, this is especially a problem for women in the workplace. Women are much more likely to get feedback that is not helpful, not concrete, not actionable, there. So that, that, that is especially a problem, for, for them. And then the third sign is irrelevance. Irrelevance is the work we, the sense that the work we do around here really doesn't make a difference. We're really not helping anybody. So my favorite example of that, there used to be a company in the UK called Spray On Mud. So it's meant for people who live in a city like London or Manchester, and they have off the road vehicles, but they never go off the road, but they want to make it look like they went off the road. So you get a bottle of mud, and you can spray it on your car to make it look like you've been roading. So if you meet somebody, and they bring you home to meet their family, and say, what do you do for a living? You say, oh, I'm the leading salesperson for Spray On Mud. ThinkND. com Is that a bad thing? It's not a bad thing, but it's, Is that, inspire you to wake up on Monday in the morning kind of thing? I don't I suggest not. anyway. So all of, all that. So I think we can all help younger people think about that. What are the other things that go into a good job? and the whole work life balance thing. Balancing work and the rest of life. All of, All of that. I know when I practiced corporate law, it was hard. I was single at the time. It was hard to be in a relationship. Because somebody, my girlfriend would ask, do you want to go to a play next week? I don't know if I'll be able to get out by 8. My family in New York is asking if I'm coming home for Thanksgiving in October. I say, I don't know. It depends on what deal is active then and everything. So it's just hard and hard to be frustrating for somebody. One of my colleagues, You're supposed to bill 2, 000 hours a year. He made the fatal mistake of getting an apartment across the street from our office. So when anybody needed anything, no, so I was right across the street to call him. So he ended up billing 3, 000 hours instead of 2, 000. so he started out the year engaged and the end of the year no longer engaged. I can put that to that. we could all feel for her. Anyway, so all of that. So all that in mind, coming back, does God in you care, you believe in, care about any of the following? So any further thoughts on that? And we've had some new people come in, so how would you answer this question? Does God care about the work you do? my quick hit list is this, what work do you choose to do? So again, if Mother Teresa was a healthcare administrator and said I know what she's doing, that wouldn't be like a bad thing, but it wouldn't be the thing she's called to do. If Michelangelo never did anything creative, I think that would, if Michael, Michael Jordan never did anything competitive, that would probably not be the thing that they are meant to do. so am I doing the thing, is there a thing that I'm meant to do? And again, it could be multiple things, to your earlier point about the, the talent. It could be multiple things, but is it at least one, one of those? why you choose to do it, your measure of success in doing it. I did an article for Notre Dame Business Magazine on an Irish social entrepreneur who grew up poor. in Ireland, and he started a, non profit that helped, long term unemployed poor people get professional IT positions with IBM, Dell, Lotus, whatever, and I asked him how he measured success. I said, do you measure success by the number of people you help? And he said, no, we don't measure success based on the number of lives we touch. We measure success based on the degree to which those lives are transformed. Which to me is just brilliant. I think that, that's, That's fantastic. So how do you measure success in what you're, in what you're, doing, how, in Catholic social teaching part of the meaning of work is it enables you to provide for the people that you love. So does it enable you to do that or not? How much is enough is an interesting question for a lot of us to ask. I had a friend whose father was a partner in an accounting firm in Chicago, very active in full life. And, he was a runner, he was volunteering in his local church, he enjoyed the arts, he had an incredibly close relationship with his wife and kids. And he was saying that, there are partners in the firm who have, a bigger paycheck than I do, their partners have a bigger office than I do, and there are days when I envy them, their bigger paycheck or bigger office. But he said, I wouldn't trade the total package I have in life for anybody else's total package. To me, that was a wise way to think about it. Are you making enough? But do you have other things to feed your soul? Interestingly, by the way, I gave a talk on integral excellence in work to a group of 900 investment consultants a number of years ago. And, a guy in his mid 40s came up to me afterwards and he said, You've got me thinking. I come to two or three conferences a year to become a better investment consultant. I'm always reading articles or books about how to become a better investment consultant. I'm married, and I'm a father, and I love my wife and kids. I've never read a single article or book on how to be a better husband or a better father. That's something to think about. professionally, I'm always trying to get better. That part of my life, that just is what it is. I'm not trying to improve in that area. to me, that's an interesting, thought provoking question. with that, how does your work shape you as a person? St. John Paul II liked to say, Through our work, we shape the world in, but the work also shapes us. Kind of for better or worse, there. I had a friend, a Catholic colleague I practiced law with and I came into her office one day to say hello and she was, reaming out that this attorney was on the other side of some case she was litigating and, when she hung up the phone, she looked at me, she said, I've become a she devil. So she wasn't by nature a she devil. So she stopped doing that work six months later. So for her, that wasn't having a good shaping effect. So the question is, think about yourself when you started your career, think about yourself 5, 10, 15 years or more into your career. Are you becoming more or less a person of faith, hope, love? Are you more or less at peace? How is the work shaping you, for better or worse, is the question. But it has an impact. who are you spending your time with? I went from being a Jesuit to being a stockbroker. different conversations. Laughter. there. And then how does the work affect others? It's interesting. If you look up the Oxford American Dictionary, definition of success, it says the attainment of wealth, fame, or position, wealth, fame, or position. It's, a dictionary. Yes, it's a dictionary thought of moral text. It's not saying that's good or bad things. So when people use this word in this culture, here's what they mean by it. But can you think of anybody who's got a lot of wealth, fame, or impressive position who you would not consider a success in life? if so, why? What's missing? So whoever you're thinking about, why would you not call that a success in life? Even though they have wealth, fame, or position? Yeah?

Audience 46:34

Joy.

Joe Holt 46:36

Yeah, joy. It's nothing to do with that. Yeah, the problem is it defines success entirely in terms of having rather than being. wealth, fame, and position are something you have, so it's nothing about being the kind of person you are. Or the quality of the relationships. I had a Jesuit friend who was asked to fill in for another priest to say a funeral mass for an elderly guy who had died and he didn't know the family. But the priest who did know the family got sick and he couldn't do the mass. So this other priest was filling in, and, he was told the widow and the kids would be there. So when he came to the homily, he was saying some generic nice thing. he was a loving husband. They saw the widow getting agitated. He was a devoted father. The widow stood up in the middle of the homily, said, He was a son of a bitch! I don't know what this guy had in terms of a well favored position, but that's what your loved ones think about when you're gone. You did not live a successful life. so that matters. does your work matter? To me the question is, your work does matter to God. I need to move along, you've gotten the signal. your work does matter to God, but it's not what matters most to God. C. S. Lewis, great Anglican writer, wrote Mere Christianity, said, God cares not exactly about your actions, what He cares about is that we should be creatures of a certain kind or quality. Kind of creatures he intended us to be. So people of faith, hope, and love. All that. Again, the shaping thing. Are you becoming that person God wants you to be? A belief in Christianity that doesn't get much attention is the Trinity. the Surgeon General came up, said loneliness is an epidemic. Something like 30 percent of households are a single person. There's, A lot of people just feel during the pandemic, a lot of people felt isolated. With remote work, a lot of people are feeling isolated, too, all that kind of a thing. So the Trinity is a belief that we're made in the image of God, but we're made in the image of God who's not an isolated loner, but a community of three persons united in love. So unless we are, connected to other people in love, we're literally not true to the image in which we've been made. We were made for love. It's like a natural for us to not be in loving relationships. with others is kind of the point with that. what makes for a good job that you feel connected with others is an important thing. By the way, the word company comes from the Latin com and panis. a com is together with, panis is bread. literally, company is those with whom you break bread. In ancient civilization, you signify oneness with somebody by breaking bread with them, sharing a meal with them. is it. Europeans tend to think of company a little more that way than we do. There, but there's something rich to that. Semi permanent community people are committed to doing things together. so one criteria for measuring progress or regress in work is the fruits of the spirit. So again, as my career progresses or calling progresses, am I becoming more or less a person of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, challenge, self control? To me, that's one criteria you could use for the way I'm being shaped. Or not, another one I like to use is the priest prayer. So I'm more or less inclined to sell love when I see hatred, to pardon when there's an injury, to provide faith when people are in doubt, provide hope when people are despairing, light when there's darkness, etc. I'll make all these slides available to you folks, by the way. These were made for you, there. So those are two criteria I use to think about it. last thing I wanted to end with. When I was in Rome, I had a Jesuit friend who was a liturgist. And he said something that changed the way that I understand and experience math, mass. he said in, in mass today, Jesus is doing the same four things with us that he did with his original disciples. And those four things are to gather, teach, nourish, and send. So he gathered them together. There are people who, but for being called by him, would not have been hanging out together. tax collectors and, physicians and fishermen and all of that. He taught them the parables, the Our Father, all that kind of thing. Nourished them, multiplication of the loaves and the fish, the Last Supper, all of that. But then he sent them. There's a passage, early in the Gospels, they follow him around. There's a passage in the 9th chapter of Luke where Jesus sends them off on their own, and he stays back. What's interesting, by the way, is it goes really well for them, and when they come back and say how well everything went. it says he rejoiced mightily in the spirit when that happened. one of my scripture professors said that's the only verb in the New Testament that could be translated as he laughed. So the thing that brought him the greatest joy was how well they did when he wasn't there. How well they did on their own. Which to me, again, another kind of great sign of a leader. So gathering, teaching, nourishing. In the mass, gathering together, the gathering hymn, teaching, the readings, the homily on good days at least, nourishing, the Eucharist. And then the sending. It used to be go in peace, to love, and serve the Lord. Now they change the language in a way that, have a nice day is less helpful. Anyway. But the point the liturgist made is that the gathering and teaching and nourishing are for the sake of the sending. So I ought to experience myself as being sent, and where I'm being sent into is the rest of the week. I'm being sent into, the Our Father. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Jesus wants the kingdom to be present throughout the world, not only in churches and, synagogues and all of that. And there are places in the world where there are no priests and popes and bishops and sisters who are there. It's only you folks, your home, your workplace. If somebody's gonna do something to make the kingdom real there, it's gotta be you. So am I feeling nourished and encouraged to do that or not is the question. ought to be. anyway, we're one minute past. Thanks very much for