Restoring Reason, Beauty, and Trust in Architecture, Part 9: New Light on the Victor Emmanuel II Monument

Episode Topic: New Light on the Victor Emmanuel II Monument (https://go.nd.edu/c924ee)

The Vittoriano Monument, honoring Victor Emmanuel II, stands as a pivotal piece in the evolution of Roman architecture during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Please join the School of Architecture as Paolo Coen provides a deeper understanding of its role in shaping modern Rome and their urban landscape.

Featured Speaker:

• Paolo Coen, Ph.D., Professor of Art History and Museum Studies at the University of Teramo

Read this episode's recap over on the University of Notre Dame's open online learning community platform, ThinkND: https://go.nd.edu/e879f6

This podcast is a part of the ThinkND Series titled Restoring Reason, Beauty, and Trust in Architecture. (https://go.nd.edu/0133ae)

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Transcript

Introduction and Speaker Background

1 0:06

Good afternoon, and welcome to the first guest lecture of the academic year. Our guest tonight is Paolo Cohen, professor of art history at the Università degli Studi in Teramo, in Abruzzo. He's also taught in several other institutions, such as the Ateneo of Udine, and the University of Sapienza. I'd say the Sapienza out of the goodness of his heart. Paolo wrote regularly for the monthly journal Roma Ieri, Oggi e Domani. this journal is dedicated to the visual cultural legacy of Rome, for example, to the great vedute, the great perspectives and views of the city in the 16th to the 19th centuries. Among his principal writings is an excellent study of Giuseppe Vasi's Magnificenzae di Roma, the Magnificences of Rome. And that was the first time I encountered Paolo's work, and I was quite impressed by that. I strongly recommend his study on Giuseppe Vasi. He is also the editor of the book Art, Market in Rome in the Eighteenth Century, A Study in the Social History of Art, which sheds new light on the Gratuo on Publications and Patrony. He's also the author of the Recupero del Rinascimento, which I'm presently reading, an extensive study of art and politics in the last decades of the nineteenth century, when Rome became the capital of a unified Italy. the subject of tonight's lecture is the recent findings at the Vittoriano in Rome. And yesterday he gave us a short preview, about what he called some interesting surprises, and we're looking forward to hearing that. he didn't tell us all the surprises, so we hope to hear most of them right now. And we look forward, we're quite eager to hear more about these recent findings. Please welcome Professor Paolo Cohen.

Historical Context and Significance

Architectural Competitions and Design

Construction and Challenges

National Style and Cultural Impact

Recent Findings and Restoration

2 1:54

Here's the main lithography. The Joseph Pennell dedicated to the Vittoriano. Pennell made it in 1911, the year of the inauguration of the monument of the Vittoriano. Pennell, one of the leading illustrators in the United States. Was inspired by Joi Batista Irani to render the image of an open, dynamic, efficient building aside in full ferment. The ano represents an important building for Rome and for the Italian state every year, 5 million visitors, go to the Vitor, in today's. European and democratic Italy, it was also important yesterday, at that precise time, Rome chose the High Renaissance style as its national language. The project was to exploit its glorious past, classical, and Renaissance to win the competition in the arts against Paris. Art production, art trade, a vital sector to give breath to national glory in a climate of increasing nationalism. The Vittoriano represented the main testbed for this challenge. The Vittoriano was also an important monument for the United States of America. Americans of that time observed the Vittoriano with very different eyes. From those of today's Americans, and we had a test in the lunchtime from 80, 18th and 76 until the early 19th century, the ancient Rome and the new Rome with freedom of speech and religious beliefs was a city of reference for a large number of artists, patrons, and men and women of culture from overseas. Again, with Paris. And in some respect, more than Paris. Okay, this is how we're going to spend our next minutes together. It's fair to start by taking some time to repeat to myself, first of all, a general profile of the Vittoriano, from its genesis to the choice of its architect, Giuseppe Sacconi. We will try then to clarify how the Vittoriano fits into a very hot topic in the Italian Risorgimento, that of the national language or national style. And why it gave a true and satisfactory solution to it. Finally, we will assess the origins and deep meaning of the national style adopted in the Vittoriano. I naturally expect a phase with questions and answers. at the end, but please feel free to interrupt if something has not been, said clearly enough, Before getting to the heart of the matter, I would like, to thank my colleague, Samir Younes, for having invited me here. Thank you very much. I would also to thank, Stephanos Poliouzoides, the Dean of the School of Architecture. Thank you very much. and Kerry Rooley, David Salem, and all those who organized my trip and sojourn here. I also would like to thank Jane Younash, who was so kind to prepare my visit to your beautiful universities. My first time here, and I'm really appreciating all this. The Vittoriano is the main monument in honor of Victor Emmanuel II, Italy's first king. Sometimes it's called Altare della Patria. The altar of the fatherland, and it is located right in the very center of Rome. It has nothing to do with Gabriele D'Annunzio's Vittoriale degli Italiani, 500 kilometers north on Lake Garda. The original idea of the Vittoriano dates back to January 1878, when the first king of Italy, Victor Emmanuel, was on his deathbed, The idea came from Prime Minister Agostino de Pretis and Interior Minister Francesco Crispi. The idea was to build a state monument to the memory of the first king, so as to identify the king with the homeland itself. The person of the king, and the Savoy monarchy in full, became the shield to defend the young kingdom of Italy from its enemies. Anarchy had strong roots in Italy. After several failed terrorist attacks against the Savoy family, the anarchists eventually succeeded. On 29th July, 1900, killing King Umberto, the first in Monsa. Other historical enemies of the Kingdom of Italy were bourbons of Naples Buron, defeated in 1860. 1861 by General Garibaldi. The Bourbons tried every mean to gain back their throne. Quite the same might be said about the Roman Pontiffs. Starting, from Pius IX, the Popes tried to regain possession of the state of the Church. Things started to change, with Pius X, at the beginning of the new century. the first meaning of the Vittoriano was to convey the affection of Italians toward the first king, so to become a shield against the enemies of Italy. To get from idea to project required two competitions, not one, two of them. Having the first one failed, the second competition was held in 1882 1883. As the German scholar Torsten Rodjek notes, the Second Competition made things easier and let the political nature of the monument become obvious. Its urban cornerstones were laid directly by Prime Minister Agostino de Pretis. Again, the Vittoriano was to be erected in the heart of Rome, on the capital hill, Campidoglio. That is to stand as a scenic backdrop with an ascending terraced course. Also clear is the orientation exactly northwards, toward Via del Corso and even further towards Piazza del Popolo. Traditionally, the entrance to the city, for travelers, who would come from North. The statue of King Victor Emmanuel II was to dominate the center. The statue, which later became an equestrian statue, like the Marcus Aurelius, was and still is the main sculptural element of a rich sculptural apparatus. The winner of this second competition was Giuseppe Sacconi, a young architect from the Marche region. Here is an image of Sacconi's winning project, dating 1882. As one can see, its structure is quite close to the final monument, with few exceptions. One of Sacconi's main characteristics was his strong classical and neo Renaissance background. I show here a previous project of Sacconi. The facade for a small but impressive church in Force. in the province of Marche, in the heart of Marche region, where he came from. One may successfully compare the church in Sforce to a project which is traditionally ascribed to Donato Bramante, Santa Maria Annunziata of Roccaverano in Piedmont, northern Italy. Sacconi started to build the Vittoriano in 1885, two, three years after the project you will be seeing together. He changed it radically. he had to change the statics of the building. Distributing the weight through a complex system of tunnels and arcades. Zaccone led the building site until his death in September 1905. In the perspective Of the inauguration, three architects took over a sort of triumvirate. After all, we are in Rome. The aim now was to inaugurate the monument in 1911 to celebrate the first 50 years of the kingdom. This was an order coming directly from the young king, Victor Emmanuel III, grandson and namesake of Victor Emmanuel II. To glorify his grandfather would serve to glorify his lineage and thus himself. This was essentially the king's thinking. Work continued, after 1911. many parts still had to be completed, especially the sculptural decorations. Including the two large bronze quadrigas at the top of the building. After the First World War, the monument would see the addition of the tomb of the unknown soldier in 1921. The completion of the building owes a lot to Armando Bresini, one of the main architects of the fascist era. I have already mentioned the issue of the national style. The mentality of the 19th century. The national style indicated. That particular artistic and especially architectural language capable more and better than any other language of interpreting and conveying the soul of a single nation. And consequently, also the language to be adopted on an official and institutional level in modern buildings. The issue was not typical of Italy. It started in France and in England, in the England of Augustus Pugin, and then extended to Germany. These countries adopted their respective declinations of Gothic But for various reasons, things became more complex in Italy after 1861, One of these reasons was the poor state of studies on Italian Middle Ages. scholars, didn't have a clear view on the role of Italy in the Middle Ages. Only later this would have become true. Eventually, the issue was taken over and resolved by Camillo Boito, one of the most influential personalities in the field of architecture and art of the Italian Risorgimento. Boito worked as an architect. Restorer and theorist in Milan. He was one of the souls of the Brera Academy and later the Politecnico, where he trained two generations of architects. He was also very active in the field of learned journalism, earning space as a columnist on art, architecture, and culture in large circulation newspapers and periodicals. We will see shortly how this was effective. Boito dealt with the national style. After having chosen 14th century Lombard architecture for some Milanese projects, When it came to Rome, Boto opted in favor of the mature Renaissance of Doma. Of Donato Braman. As I mentioned earlier, the vi Victor is a monument with a strong political character. Its political framework was due to Prime Minister Augustino de Preti as Prime Minister. The practice was also the head of the Victoria of the Royal Commission of the Victoriano. the body of the Italian government in charge of approving all the choices made by architect and expenses related to the monument. Now, since September 1880, the praetors asked Camillo Boito to become a member of the Royal Commission. Here is the English translation of the document I found in the State Archive of Rome. It is, My dear sir, my illustrious sir, a commission has been appointed for the Vittoriano Your illustrious lordship has been called to take part in it. Now, since September 1880, he became then a member, Boito became a member of the commission, and this was a very clever move by Agostino de Pretis. Acting from inside the commission, Boito, among other things, provided de Pretis and the government with the theoretical, technical, and moral support for demolishing the urban tissue of the whole area, so to make room for the monument and the square before it, Piazza Venezia. See, this is a quite clear critical point. Even today, some of the criticism stems from the sacrifices needed to make room for the Vittoriano, forgetting what has just been exposed. The Vitoriano was conceived as a strong sign of a new kingdom right in the heart of Rome. It was meant to be as it is. Beutel wrote several articles fighting back the attacks of the archaeologist Rodolfo Lanciani, and convincing the public opinion, Because he was a learned journalist, he knew how to write and communicate it. And again, Boito was behind the choice of architect Giuseppe Sacconi. He was in the commission, so he contributed and convinced others to choose Sacconi. As I said, an architect and a project with a strong Neo Renaissance character. a project that relied upon Donato Bramante's mature language, especially Language of the Belvedere Courtyard, so to recover some classical landscape scale plans. My immediate reference is to, to the Temple of Fortuna Primigenia at Preneste, beautiful site, archaeological site, near Rome, a large terraced and stepped construction on a hill with a strong focus in the center. Just like the Belvedere and, of course, the Vittoriano. At the times of Sacconi, the second half of the 19th century, the temple of Fortuna Primigenia lied under the medieval urban tissue of Palestrina, so it was not visible. Nevertheless, it was very well known since the Renaissance through reconstructions made by several architects, among others, Andrea Palladio. As Jörg Martin Mertz has made clear, it seems fair now to broaden the picture and spend a few final minutes on the adoption, the recovery of the Renaissance as a national style of the Kingdom of Italy. In cultural terms, the operation has wide and deep roots and meanings. Let's focus now on the success of the term itself, Rinascimento, Renaissance. Giorgio Vasari and his followers never used the term Renaissance when referring to the period of time, of art time, spanning from Brunelleschi, from Filippo Brunelleschi, To Michelangelo, Vasari used the expression maniera moderna, that could be somehow translated in modern manner, and opposing maniera moderna to the darkness of Middle Ages and of the Byzantine Age. The term Renaissance was born and applied to this period of time in France, much later from the 18th and 19th century. came thanks to this man, the Swiss historian Jakob Burckhardt, and his book, The Civilization of the Renaissance in Italy. Burckhardt truly marked a turning point in the perception of Italy and its culture. From then on, intellectuals used the term Renaissance as an easy label to point out a period when Italy reached its peak. Italian patriots, on the other hand, Established a subtle and effective parallel between renaissance, and the phase of inner renewal of Italian identity. I was in your beautiful library. I visit two of them. The one I'm referring to is the main one. It holds fine examples of the divine comedy by Dante Alighieri, the Florentine late middle age poet. Italian high level language, that is literary, poetic, and academic, is very antique. When in school, Italian students, may read and pretend to understand 700 years old texts by Dante, Petrarca, and Boccaccio. But written language was, and somehow still is, an exception. In 1861, new born Italy was extremely fragmented. A famous phrase attributed to the politician Massimo d'Azeglio goes like this. Fatta l'Italia, adesso è il momento di fare, dobbiamo fare di italiani. That is, roughly, having made Italy, Having reached the unity of Italy, we must now make Italians, so we must shape the Italian identity. The fathers of the country worked hard to shape the new national identity. Right after 1861, the year of the unification of Italy, scholars from different disciplines were called, traced, and sometimes invented unifying and cohesive factors. They shaped our Italian identity. This explains the efforts of Alessandro Manzoni in school programs, of Francesco De Santi in literature, Pellegrino Artusi in cooking. Italian cuisine is a myth. You have regional cuisines. It was invented by Pellegrino Artusi. And Adolfo Venturi in Art History, there are several, books and studies such as I just quoted. what was carried out in the field of art and architecture by Camillo Boito, again, to identify in the Renaissance a unitary and national style applied by architects such as Giuseppe Sacconi in the Vittoriano. Find this, find easily these parallels. Behind all this were a genuine patriotic spirit and genuine gratitude towards the new first king, Victor Emmanuel II, for having finally unified the country. Published in 1886, Cuore, Heart by Mondo di Amici, remains the key novel for understanding these feelings, which We're pure and genuine, but we must not underestimate the whole framework, which was not necessarily pure and genuine. Italy, one of the last entrants on the European scene, wanted to become quickly a world power. Colonialism. Expansion, imperialism, these are other key concepts of the time, also to understand Italy. Like England, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany, Italy needed mental and cultural structures to expand outside its borders. For this, Italy equipped itself with tools which would advantage her in the international competition. Something which started in 1880, 1882, in perfect synchrony with the Vittoriano. In 1906, 1907, a poor Spanish painter named Pablo Picasso put his hand to Les Demoiselles d'Avignon. Picasso struggled to get back to Paris to let his career take. In fact, he made the Demoiselles in a poor and crumbling building named Les Bateaux Lavoir. 19th and early 20th century Paris exerted a strong attraction on American artists. Collectors and dealers, after all, the United States, even before France itself, was the first to appreciate and buy the Impressionists in the 1880s. Quite the same happened to Picasso. Just think of the U. S. poetess Gertrude Stein. But another part of Americans was afraid, or at least suspicious, of Paris. We can call it the other side of the country. Bourgeois, Catholic, Puritan or Quaker, conservative and often very wealthy America, much quieter than the previous one. For this second America, Paris was and remained for decades the city of the Commune. And communard, the most famous insurrection of the times. Paris, also, was the city of brothels and prostitutes. Something scandalous and, of course, attractive for non French conformists. That is why many among the non French kept away their children, sons, daughters, and students from it. this kind of Americans preferred Rome. the very option of the recovering of the Renaissance. This is, for instance, the story of a great architect, Charles Follin McKim, and the story of the American Academy in Rome, which still exists today. Right on top of the Janiculum Hill. After 1870, Rome entered into open competition with Paris. The Vittoriano must be read in this way. Paris in 1870 was crushed, defeated by Germany, the Germany of the Chancellor Bismarck. Rome also excluded a French artist, Henri Polynoy, who had legitimately won the first competition for the Vittoriano. Despite the convinced support of the state, Rome failed to understand that academies and state exhibitions like the Biennale were almost useless. The real challenge of contemporary art lay in true and open linguistic research and breaking of conventions. This is the story told by Cubism and other avant garde, including, of course, Futurism which in fact condemned the Vittoriano in no uncertain terms. Futurism was the first to condemn Vittoriano. Not surprisingly, it was precisely from here, from intellectuals, Connected to futurism, such as Giovanni Papini, that the Victoriano's misfortune would begin. But this would sound like the start of another story, a story of a condemnation of a monument. So I'd better stop here and thank you very much.

3 26:47

Oh, that's a good question. Perhaps you can share with the audience. Some of the recent findings you've identified, especially in Vitoria, in Brutalistara.

2 26:56

Absolutely, extemporary means, out of program, okay, for those who are not familiar or totally familiar with Latin, the, the day, yesterday, the day before yesterday started to share with my good friend. Samir Younes, the new findings of the Vittoriano has been a lot of work in the running of the Vittoriano in the last seven, eight years. It started from 8, 000, 800, 000, sorry, visitors, 2000, data's are 2017, 18. Now it raised to 5 million. It keeps raising and raising the number of visitors. And it's changing very quickly. These are one of the changes professor, UNES was mentioning. Okay, on top above, you see usual, I wouldn't call color, I mean situation, of the bronzes of the Vitor. The ones who got in in, in Rome are used to see a contrast between the white of the Ticino marble. Total white with black dark gray or bronze. This is true everywhere from the monument to the king in the center, to here, the victories in the beginning, just in front of the, when you're getting into the, into the entrance. Now the news are that they were completely gilded. So it's bronze covered with gold. Very impressive situation. Of course, it is not being re gilded. what you see is gold, which was underneath the patina. I'm speaking now to the experts of restoration, Marcus. what wasn't there has been replaced. By removable yellow Terra di Siena, so it's color, not new gold over it. this has been much disputation on this point, criticizing, not on the Vittoriano, especially for restoration made in Russia. I'll just make one quick example to Zarcoe Selo, because to put completely new leaf of gold. This is not the case. these first results, we're talking of a photograph taken eight days ago and the same thing is going to be applied everywhere. Also in the quadrigas in bronze on the top. So the dynamics and the contrasts of color is going to change radically when you get back to Rome and see the Vittoriano is not going to be black, dark gray against white. It's going to be gold against white. to me, it's quite astonishing, the contrast.

4 29:54

I guess the

2 29:55

Western statue of the king is also going to be all gilded as well. there are traces. If you look closely, you can see very easily, also the equestrian statue of Marcus Aurelius was totally gilded, and one must understand that the huge, statue of King Victor Emmanuel I, the original, I'm talking to students, Marcus Aurelius was still in the middle of Michelangelo's project in the capital, so you could almost see each other. There is a strong connection. It was taken as a model.

6 30:30

Thank you very much for your presentation. I was wondering if you could speak a little bit more to other examples of the Reor Demento national style in Rome and throughout Italy, and maybe how pervasive that style was, at the time.

Q&A Session

2 30:44

Thank you very much. National style Reor. I got it. I got it. thank you very much. To me the brightest. Example or kind, is, zoia by Alini on the other side of Thet and has a strong connection in ears and also installed, I worked quite a bit on Palazzo. Not as much as I did with ano. There is more, inspiration to Andrea Palladio in the Palazzo di Giustizia. And I would say that it was, discovered. by Americans, was many Americans, many American scholars do not have so much prejudice against this kind of monuments as we Italians used to have. So probably now we are getting to the right distance to re establish a good relationship with our past.

7 31:38

Okay. Thank you. Could you say a little bit more about the role of

2 31:42

Absolutely. One often thinks that, Brasini took over in 1924. There has been, a congress on Armando Brasini in Rome with many good scholars. And the actual date slips to 1927, so that is from 1927 to 1937, totally under the fascist regime. Armando Brasini in the Vittoriano, as we'd say, completed quite all. Everywhere you can see his hand because the monument, though inaugurated in 1911, was largely unfinished. To be, to go to your point, for instance, the function, how it functions, how the tune of the Unknown Soldiers is quite clever. The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, was laid in 1921 to recall those Italian soldiers who fell in the First World Conflict, and who were not recognizable. This is a cult, which is widespread also in Washington, D. C., and Arlington Cemetery, we have the tomb. of the Unknown Soldiers, which is about the same years. it recalls U. S. soldiers who were not recognizable. But the fact is that the Vittoriano has nothing to do with religion. The body of the king lies in the Pantheon. It's a memorial. But the introduction of a body dedicated to one soldier, to all soldiers, Implied religion from the public. the wives of the soldiers, the mothers of the soldiers, mainly, wanted to also have a, church relief. So, there was a need for this. So, what Brasini did, he made a two sided coffin. one side of the coffin is outside. It has nothing to do with religion. It's a civil and, war memorial. But inside, he built the chapel, which is religious. It's a Catholic chapel for praying unto the body. It's the same coffin outside and inside. Second, very important, innovation made by Armando Bresini has to do with the statics of the Vittoriano. statics is a problem. Briefly, when the competition was issued, it was given for granted that the weight of the building would lay on the top and on the side of the Capitol Hill. But this couldn't be made because simply it would fall apart. So it was invented to make a self standing building, like a backpack on the Vittoriano, But eventually the Vittoriano, under Sacconi, started to fall, eastbound. So one had to build another building, to sustain it. And this is the so called Alla Bresini. The Alla Bresini is a huge gallery. it's a new museum. Built eastbound on the Via dei Fori Imperiali, which still exists, and it's going to be another of the novelties of the Vittoriano 2025. It's going to be open as an international place of exhibition. this was built by Bresini. It was thought by the Triumvirate, but was made technically by Bresini in the 30s. I would definitely put these two things, and also the quadrigas were made under his, his moment was the director. So he managed to put these two huge. Bronze things right on the top. Not an easy thing to do, was clever and very inventive.

4 35:33

Defending

8 35:34

the urban fabric that was there was not important enough and it could be removed. What was known about the Roman cell? foundation, the substructure, what existed below that fabric, and were extensive excavations conducted, after the removal of that medieval fabric.

2 35:57

Okay. I couldn't say better than you did. I mean, these are the two goals, the two main pillars. I would add that there was a strong ideological and political contrast between the destra storica, the right historical wing, That, of course, cannot be confused with fascism whatsoever, it was just very close to the Vatican. And Shani was part of it, was part of the major, Leopoldo Torlogna, as well, of the so called black nobility, black aristocracy, that used this contrast as a tool to put in doubt of the rightness of this opposite side, which was Was a sinistra storica, historical left, which has nothing to do with communism or socialism, just very, say, entrepreneur like. And to get to the point, Lanciani made a list when the competition came out, with all the issues made by De Preti himself, written on and issued by the Gazetto Fisale, that is, what architects who want to compete must follow. The, the polemics started and, Lanciani wrote a whole, Lanciani was a, a key archaeologist and topographer of ancient Rome, much in contact with America himself because he had an American wife. He kept conferences here in America and thought extremely bad about the next to come. Project. So he made a list, 20 points list of writing. It's going to be this, this, this, this, and this. And he gave it to Leopoldo Torlogna, and from then on, the point that Vittoriano destroyed the whole center of Rome became very popular. It is somehow still today, again, forgetting something very important. It was and is a project. It's a strong sign. The world of semiotics and urbanism. It's very important to read correctly the victoriano. It's not just, detrimental destroying something. It's to very thoughtful project, but the answer is no. To get friendly to your point was taken over. But no, not extensive. This was not the case of making new and extensive exhibition. Things were discovered, of course, For instance, the Museo di Roma, which is in Palazzo Braschi on Corso Vittorio Emanuele, holds quite a lot of things which were, discovered then, or just, kept. For instance, the frescoes of the so called Torre, the Tower of Paul III, of Pope Paul III, it was a magnificent, 16th century architecture. You can find some things there, but not very much. also the Pasetto was destroyed. The Pasetto, the way that led from Palazzo Venezia to the tower itself. Many things have been destroyed. it has been a pleasure to see how Boito was so clever to manipulate things, thanks to his communication skills.

9 39:19

I have a question. Thanks for an informative lecture. I was wondering, and this is a provocative question, admittedly. do you see any role, any place in the present for the idea of a national style in architecture or perhaps a local style?

2 39:37

First, thank you for the question, and I always adore how provocative questions are always made with a very soft tone. so the question is, where, you can find national style in the world? That is, there are examples today of national style. Yeah, to my opinion. There's been a shade in my lecture, which I always weigh a lot, and words have weight, of course. And there is the moment when I said, was important. yesterday, the Vittoriano, the subject of my phrase is Vittoriano, and it's important today in, non fascist Italy, anti fascist Italy, republican and democratic Italy, and European Italy. The role of the Vittoriano is, getting back towards the public now. nationalism, at least in Italy, has been substituted by a wider concept. if we speak about Europe and this strange and still unfinished political, cultural, economic, identitarian project, it's the time to, not to reevaluate, but to reconsider, this kind of monuments. Today we were talking with colleagues of ours, with my colleagues, about cemeteries, war memorials, which are very important for all the people who died. it's something that must be, reconsidered. to get to your question, I don't think the concept of language, of style I prefer the word language must be considered deeply and widely. So I wouldn't say that there are styles, there are languages, but I don't believe that you can find a nationality behind

3 41:30

it.