The ThinkND Podcast
The ThinkND Podcast
Shakespeare & Possibility, Part 9: Utopia and Sustainability
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Episode Topic: Utopia and Sustainability
Uncover the connection between Shakespeare and the messy realities of building sustainable communities, utopias, and environmental futures. Listen in to a pre-show event from the August 31, 2024 performance of As You Like It, featuring Westin Smith, Ph.D. candidate in the Department of Romance Languages and Literatures at Notre Dame, and Mackenzie Pittman ‘24, graduate student in Notre Dame’s School of Architecture, and moderated by Jennifer Thorup Birkett ‘23 Ph.D., postdoctoral fellow with Shakespeare at Notre Dame.
Featured Speakers:
- Jennifer Thorup Birkett '23 Ph.D., University of Notre Dame
- Mackenzie Pittman '24, University of Notre Dame
- Westin Smith, University of Notre Dame
Read this episode's recap over on the University of Notre Dame's open online learning community platform, ThinkND: https://go.nd.edu/ee0bc2.
This podcast is a part of the ThinkND Series titled Shakespeare & Possibility.
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Welcome to the Notre Dame Shakespeare Festival
2Welcome everyone to the Notre Dame Shakespeare Festival. We're so glad you're here. We're so glad you could be with us for this pre-show event. is this anyone's first time to the festival? Yay. Welcome. Anyone's 20th time to the festival. Yes. Yay. That's fantastic. So this is our 24th season. We're heading into our 25th year next year, which is gonna be big. I can't tell you what show we're doing yet, but it's gonna be exciting. So come back next year as well. No, I can't tell anyone. It's a secret. my name's Jenny Burket. I'm the postdoctoral research associate for Shakespeare, Notre Dame and the coordinator of these events. So all the pre-show and post-show events that we've been doing with this series, I'm kind of in charge, but I'm joined today by two very special guests and I will introduce them each individually. And I'm gonna use my paper because I wanna make sure I say everything correctly. We have Mackenzie Pittman, who is a recent anthropology graduate from Notre Dame and a current master's of architecture student and also a longtime Shakespeare enthusiast. Am I right to believe to know that you did the not so role at Shakespeare Company while you were here? I did, yes. Oh, great. For
4three years, I was in cerebral productions and. And assistant directed and directed a small show as well. So
2yeah. That's amazing. So those of you who may or may not know the Not so Royal Shakespeare Company is an undergraduate led ran. Completely done, Shakespeare Club here, and they perform two to three times a year at
4least. Sometimes even more than that. Yeah. We usually have three shows or so per semester at this point. We do an unrehearsed, a full show, and then kind of a side show usually as well. So be up to six shows in a
Understanding Utopian Ideals in Literature and Society
2year. Great. Yeah. and those are really fantastic productions. I really highly recommend. So keep your eye out for them. anyway. And. And Mac is also her senior thesis in the last year focused on, sustainability and the Unity Gardens. So if you've heard of Unity Gardens, maybe you've seen science for them around. the local community, essentially it's a local collaborative network of community gardens here in northern Indiana. Yep. Kind of expands around. so she's gonna talk a little bit. We're all gonna talk, but she's especially gonna bring some expertise about sustainability community and what she learned in that experience. Then we have Weston Smith, and Weston is in his third year as a doctoral student in the romance languages and literature program. Where he specializes in contemporary productions and theories of space, environment, and the ontological questions of what it means to be human. Big questions. Yeah. very hamlet questions. Yeah. but much of his work has looked at environmental crisis and utopian dystopian projects and literature, and I happen to know he has a secret love for the early modern period and also Shakespeare. So we're. Thrilled to have both of you here representing some of the expertise out of this university. And, I just wanna jump right into a couple of things. So we're here tonight before, as you like it, Shakespeare's quintessential, pastoral comedy. So what does a pastoral comedy exactly mean? It's essentially a genre where we're going to juxtapose a corrupt city or a court with the simpler existence of the forest or some sort of green space, right? And usually what happens is we have people from the court flee, fleeing the corruption of the city or the court into the green space, which can be the woods, could be could be pastures, could be whatever. and while they're there, they've sort of establ a kind of utopian society of sorts, and they learn more about themselves. They see themselves differently. They see other people differently. It's kind of, the idea is it's a bit of a transcendental experience in some sense. Is, and tonight's production, which you're going to be seeing later, leans really heavy into kind of a utopia that's inspired by, let's call it like, off grid artistic communities in Vermont. That's kind of the way I think of it. it's actually very much inspired by a theater company called The Bread and Puppet Company, which is actually in New York. And so we get a lot of similar kind of ideas about that. But, I'm wondering, Weston, if you might kind of share with us or talk to us about what are the common elements or characteristics of all Utopias, whether that's what was kind of the common idea of utopia in Shakespeare's time or even now in contemporary literature? Like what, what would have to be present for us to be like, oh, this is utopian in some way?
5Yeah, I think, yeah, I. Having those kind of foundations that are key to really getting a grasp with the text or with the play and everything. I'm sorry. I don't know. Okay. There we go. I think, yeah, I think so some of the key elements of a utopian, text or work, or ideal right, is it's fundamentally two things. it's hu humanist and political, right? So you get this idea of what do. Humans need to better themselves. And like you mentioned, it's that flight from the city, flight from whatever corrupts us, which usually seems to be society, you could say, in a lot of these mentalities. And then it's fundamentally political as well, right? So what happens when humanity is allowed to live in its best way, right? So you get these, texts, especially, you know, you can't think of it without Thomas Moore's Utopia, right? Which he's one of the ultimate humanists. So then you get, this text where it's imagining how could humans be better, what would allow them to be better? and it's that, and then political as well as what's the best organization, And what effects does that have? So if those texts, if you see that, you can say, yep, that's a utopian ideal.
2Are there certain, like certain, similarities that you see in kind of all. Utopians. is it like there's no government, everyone's kind of the, a lawless, like communal or the idea is we don't have money or are there certain things where it is, where we're trying to grasp at a certain ideal, like you said, that's getting us away from some sort of societal, maybe moral evil that we've decided, or is it, I mean, I know you, you're not like a Thomas Moore utopian scholar, but I wish, what do you like. Is there something that, that is, is kind of we're trying to grasp at with the idea of utopia? Or is it really just a moving away from certain societal?
5You can almost think of this as it's a, it's an unshackling of humanity, so there's a very positive human nature that needs to be unveiled. So with Thomas Moore's, it's getting rid of money. That's a big thing. I mean, you could say that. Yeah.'cause even in Thomas Moore's Utopia, Gold is just used for the shackles of slaves. Like you keep the slaves in gold to really show how terrible, which is an interesting point actually, right? we're
2gonna put gold on the slaves. That's what we're gonna do. That. Exactly.
5So there's some, there's something of unburdening humanity, whether it's money, whether it's a totalitarian government or maybe implementing a totality government to unshackle them from the freedom of choice, whatever it is. But it's giving them some sort of freedom that they wouldn't normally have to. Let loose the innate beautiful human nature or something,
2oh, that's really fascinating. Yeah, and I think what's, what's really interesting is in, and I don't wanna say in all cases, but I'd say Utopia has seemed to be. Even since Thomas Moore's Utopian, which I'm gonna point out, was written about 80 years before this play. So this is very much something that Shakespeare is invested in his contemporaries. those who read, would've read it. People would've understood that there is kind of this idea of another way of living or even just like the exploration of other worlds and the exploration of other people. And what do we do when we come in contact with other types of people? This was all happening in the Renaissance. and I think the criticism and challenge of a utopia is that logistically they might kind of be impossible to sustain, right?
5Yeah, no, absolutely. I think, I mean, I think Thomas Moore was even aware of that. Yeah. I mean, I, we mentioned this a little bit too, but I mean, even in the original Latin Utopia, probably everyone's most, but people know this, I think I don't want, but, utopia translates to no place from the Latin. So even Thomas Moore is recognizing that this is an impossibility. This is a no place. This is. And I think we see that in the forest of Arden right in the play itself. This is unsustainable or it doesn't last or it's not completely possible. But anyway.
Challenges of Collaborative Community Projects
2Yeah. And just as a clarification, if you haven't seen as You Like It, so the woods that they go to is called the Forest of Arden, which has connections both to France. this is set in France Den. But also Shakespeare's mother's maiden name was Arden, and there was a forest and area around his, around the war share area. It's called Arden. That kind of whole, west Midlands has a lot of Arden notions, so it's very English and also very French. And so when we refer to Arden, we're kind of talking about that utopia within the storyline. but I wanna kind of think about like at this idea about. The sustainability of Utopia? Is it something and the challenge and critique of trying to build a community that works together that is maybe, almost communist in some way, right? we're gonna get away from the corruption of a government in the court and try to have this, we're all here working together and trying to make it free, and we're all just gonna bring all of our gifts to the table. And yet, as we see in this play as you like it, we start watching. sometimes people have disagreements, like they're not, they don't always agree on what's the best way and who's gonna be in charge, and who's gonna wash all these communal mugs, and who's gonna take care of the baby and who's gonna do the laundry? And actually, you and I don't agree on what love is or how it should be. and it's interesting to start seeing little conversations and little things unfold on this stage. Mac, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about. Are these the same sorts of challenges that kind of face all collaborative community projects, or initiatives? In some sense, it's kind of the, okay, great, we all agree we're gonna all bring our own, like mugs to the garden or whatever. But who agrees Who's gonna be in charge of cleaning up the mugs or washing the mugs? Or what is the challenge of a project like Unity Gardens or any kind of thing where we're gonna serve the community, we're gonna make it free. We're gonna have people volunteer. But then the logistics of that are tricky, right?
4Yeah. So you're touching on a really important point. and I think like what you said is, you know, at Unity Gardens especially, you want everyone to be mutually benefiting from the resources. whether that's the food or the access to the environment. Everyone wants to like, bring their mugs, but obviously there's still inequity in how that, labor is actually divided. who's actually growing the food at the gardens. Or who's volunteering their time versus, you know, people who are just showing up and picking food. And so that can be like a huge issue that people like, you know, oh, this person just showed up and picked food. You know, it's not, they didn't deserve that food or something. But, so at Unity Gardens, the goal is while there is hierarchy and people, you know, some people may contribute more time and energy to growing their food, they're still benefiting in a lot of different ways. like I said, not just from the food, but connecting with the people in the community and with the environment. And so rather than it being like equal across the board, that everyone shows up and, you know, does their two hours of work and then gets a bushel of tomatoes, you know, people who maybe have more time on their hands can donate an hour to volunteer and somebody who, you know, is like a single mom and has four kids to feed, they can show up and still be able to rely. on the resources that are available to them. you know, in that sense, like I said, it's not equal in that everyone's putting the same amount of time and effort in, but it's equitable to what people are able to contribute. and that's achieved by having a kind of like soft level of hierarchy that like is associated with, you know, court life or society, that necessarily isn't always in you know, a communistic society where everyone's equal and everything's the same. So I think that's kind of how Unity achieves, that aspect of a Utopia or, you know, the force of garden. You don't really see that in the plays. who's all, who's growing the food that's offered to Orlando or Rosalyn. You don't see, you know,
1who
4grew all that food, who gathered it, who harvested it, who prepared it? It's just sitting on the table and they offer it freely. So it's kinda yeah, that's not real, that's not reality. But at Unity Gardens, you know, it is real because. There are people doing the work and growing the food and, you know, the mutual benefit of what they're receiving from the garden, is what motivates them to be a part of that community and organization.
The Role of Nature and Sustainability in 'As You Like It'
2Yeah, that's a really great point is when you're watching the production, you're going to hear a lot of wonderful song. You're gonna hear, you're gonna see people singing the forest and sharing fruit and. Happily doing the dishes and doing the laundry. They seem to always have time to just have a lot of fun. And you're like, who's doing all? Like where is this fruit coming from? Or do you work in the forest? And it's also kind of important to recognize that there's different groups that have all come into the forest for different reasons. And there are people who were there first, I guess you could say, like they are native there. And they are the shepherds and the shepherdess, and they, and there's, and then you have, I guess you could say the refugees that come in and they have interesting, different ideas about what nobility is and is it something that you, it's artificial thing or is it natural? and those conversations are really essential to this play. but also there's another group of. Of living people, I guess I'm not gonna say people, but beings that are also there. And this production really hits on that, this notion of the deer and the animals that were there. And you get a character in this play called Jake, we, who's very philosophical. they've come in from the court, but now they're having questions about I don't know. I know we have to kill the deer to eat, but if we do, are we any better than what we were in the court? and so the kind of this question of like, when those things mesh, they learn something, but also they're struggling with like the ways those two places coincide. Yep. I don't know if anyone to talk about that. Yeah.
5No. I think especially with the thinking of. The relationship with the deer. and they're coming to nature. I think even the term is, he mentions that is we brought our tyranny here, or he mentions tyranny. So this idea is no matter where humans go, it, they bring something with them of that corruption. So that kind of brings into question the impossibility of the flight, right? The impossibility of, okay, we can leave something behind and go somewhere better. But what do we bring with us? and I think that calls into question this whole notion. and I think that deer perfectly exemplify that of saying, yeah.
2Yeah. And I love this idea about the impossibility of the flight. Because while this play is very, this production especially, is very focused on sustainability in, in a lot of ways, it's. the director had a very, a big vision on using, you know, the beauty of found objects. my, my piano from my living room, for instance, is a found object that is featured in this production. Or a lot of the props are mugs that came out of people's, you know, I'm saying a lot about the mugs. It's very part of this, apparently come out of people's, cupboards. we're using a lot of fabrics that are reused from things we're upcycling, beautiful things. The puppets are made of. Cardboard and paper mache. It's not silicone, you know? So there's a lot about this notion about sustainability, and yet when we actually think of the narrative of this production or this play, we have these people that go into the forest, they have this great experience, they're changed, and then spoiler, I'm sorry, at the end, they realize they can go back to the court. And Shakespeare's not like a hundred percent clear on what happens, but the idea is he leaves it open that they probably do go back. And so I wonder if there's something to be said for, we're not meant to go just like off grid and live outside of society, or, I don't know, is that, is it just like it's impossible or is the idea like to go and then bring it back? there's no right answer to this. I'm just curious if you personally have an idea of is. Is the impossibility of utopia, the impossibility of like sustainability in some sense in a modern, corrupt society ever like Escapable? Or do we always have to come back to being in the place We are in the corruption in the world, we could say, and it's just about what did we learn in the forest? Metaphorically. Big question. Sorry. I know. Yeah. I'm trying to think where to start. Yeah. Yeah. It's a
5huge question and I think that's exactly what we're grappling with today. And I think at the end of the play, it's important to recognize that it's the God Hyman who comes in and restores this order. Yeah. And kind of bestows them the gift of marriage and order, and then they can return back possibly to society. And I think that supernatural element, that thing of something greater than us, helps us return back. We see that exemplified today, right? Where we're hoping AI will save us, or
4techno salvation is yes, techno salvation or
5something greater will come in and fix the problem. And I think clearly that's been a part of the narrative since Shakespeare continues now. but if that's our dependence on something to come in and save us, we might be in trouble right when the earth is ending. But anyway, that's a whole other topic, but they're all big topics.
2Yeah. do you wanna add anything from either From seeing this production or thinking about just your own thoughts about where you think the play is pointing us in the end.
4Yeah, I think, you know, there's an interpretation of the ending that's quite pessimistic. Like you said, you're, you know, you go and have this transcendental experience in the forest and you go back to court and it's so what's that gonna do? Are you even, are you gonna take those values and implement them like we're talking, how do you implement them? what does that look like? And, you know, is it requires, you know, the climate crisis and sustainability and all that, you know, it requires a lot of change and effort, not just, you know, from the individual level, but from the top level as well. But I think people tend to, you know, cast aside the value that individual behaviors and, you know, beliefs and actions have towards, you know, sustainability and Sure, I'd like to believe that, you know, they go back to court and maybe they think differently about their relationship to the environment and you know, then that behavior is going to, you know, have a domino effect to the people that they're around. And, you know, you can create a different culture because I mean, Wendell Berry, he's like great ecologist. you know. And poet. And poet, yeah, he's fantastic novelist. You know, he says the climate crisis is a crisis of culture. It's not, you know, it's. You know, how we behave and how we treat and see ourselves in relation to nature. And you can't change that if you don't have an experience with nature, I don't think, or have some kind of connection to it. so I don't know. I would like to be more hopeful about the ending than purely, yeah, whatever. They had a great time and now they're back in court, you know? No, that's great. But how that's actually achieved, you know, who's to say,
2who's to say? We're still figuring that out. which kind of brings me to just the final point I wanna talk about or just end on before we turn it over to those of you in the audience who maybe have questions and they can be questions about any of the topics we've talked about tonight or about Shakespeare or about the play. we will do our best to answer them. I guess. I really wanna kind of think about, yeah, what is the play asking us to think about in regards to our relationship to others and our relationship to nature or the earth? and I think perhaps a good place to start that conversation is with. Is thinking about the song. So I told you this is Shakespeare's most musical play and you're gonna hear a lot of songs. You're actually gonna hear even some additional songs added to this production.
4They're
2very good. They're very good. And one of the songs that first welcomes us into Arden is this song about the gumwood tree. And the chorus says, come here, there, come here. You know, come. and it says, here you shall see no enemy, but winter and foul weather, which I love. So there's this really interesting point about We're not gonna have enemies here. we're all gonna be communal. But we also recognize that we're all exposed to the elements too. And there is winter and foul weather. And then of course, though, you'll notice that the play ends in springtime and everything's joyous and order is brought back. But, but there is this sense that this play and this production do kind of present, like, how do we, what is our duty to fellow beings? What is our duty to the earth? we see, like I said, Jake, we is a character who has very strong opinions and observes everything, but then doesn't really get involved in a very, doesn't meddle into things so much. Rosalyn meddles into everything. so you'll see very two different foils of the way that you deal with, different conflicts in this production. But what, in seeing the play or reading the play, what do you think it's inviting us to think about in. Either of those cases about our relationship to humans, our relationship to the earth. big questions once again.
1Yeah.
2And you've maybe already answered them. That's okay.
1I was gonna, you
5get to go. First question. I think at least for me, seeing a play, reading the play and all, it seems like the first thing we're supposed to take away and what I take away. Is that, never trust the appearance. Is never trust the first. Yeah. Yeah. Never trust the first impression. I mean, we get characters dressing up as other genders, other people, other stuff, and you never know who you're talking to, who you're dealing with. And then you get the people, you know, the senior or the Duke senior right. Living amongst the woods, and they see that their books have now become the Brooks and. And they're learning from the trees,
2sermons, and stones. Exactly. Sermon and stone Good and everything. Yeah.
5you know, they're seeing new things and new lights and not assuming the, you know, the first impressions where a tree is now meant to be fell to turn into a house, but now where a stone is meant to be walkway. But no, it's now giving sermons. So there's something there of, okay, new impressions, or again, new people, new genders, new, all this stuff is, it's all in flux and. Yeah.
2No, that's really beautiful. One of my favorite lines, and I almost won't tell you just for, just so I don't spoil everything, I won't tell you who says it, but one of my favorite lines from this play is actually twa. I, but tis not I, right? So it was who I was, but it's not who I am. And there's something about the change of perspective on people and also on the environment. Do you wanna add anything?
4Yeah, just a tidbit, but yeah, like change of perspective. I think, I don't wanna spoil so much about this production, but the way that. The environment and the earth is portrayed in the spiritual kind of animistic aspect to that is something that we don't see. coming from our modern perspective, I guess. there's no, you know, a tree is a tree, it's an inanimate object. It doesn't have some kind of being or spirit towards it. So people coming from court, they've never encountered, you know, issues like that. who now has this? Great respect and admiration for nature and is absolutely devastated by, you know, having to kill the deer or the death of a deer. And you know, ruminating on those, you know, new perspectives and ideas like you said, is, you know, really important. And even if they don't fully believe them in the end, but having those experiences to begin with, you know, at least makes people question what is the status quo back at court and all of that.
2Yeah,
4question
Audience Q&A: Balancing Modern Amenities and Sustainability
2everything. Basically question everything. So I really like that and I think it'd be really interesting. I wish, I hope you all come find us at the end of the play tonight. And I would love to hear if you think anyone stays in the forest. I know the actors have personal feelings about which of their characters is I'm staying in the forest, I'm leaving to go back to the court. And Shakespeare doesn't tell us exactly who or if any of them do return, but I think there is kind of a question of who's changed the most or who actually finds themselves in the forest and maybe decides they want to stay and who feels they have to return for whatever. So that would be, I don't know. That's a question I'm gonna ask you all later. But now, the questions are for you. So we've got about eight, 10 minutes, for questions from the audience that we're happy to field. And I'll pass the mic around so that we can make sure everyone can hear. Does anyone have any questions about this production or. The en environmental thoughts with Shakespeare, sustainability, utopia, big topics. anything that might be on your mind from what we've talked about?
6I'm not really sure if this is a question per se, but a thought that I've been having is how there's this idea that you need to go live off the grid and. that's how you connect the most with nature. That's how you are the most sustainable. But there's a lot of things that you can't do in nature, like plumbing. It's, there's a lot of things that to like most able-bodied people, you think, oh, I don't really need that. But when you actually look at well-documented studies, you find that things like plumbing, things like. Single use, plastic on like things in hospitals that are there for sanitization purposes. things like air conditioning and dishwashers you like. On the surface, you're like, oh, all of those are modern things. We don't need those. But they actually consume less water. They're more energy efficient. They prevent diseases, which then. Like prevents like consumption that people would need if they got more sick. And so there's, I guess, maybe how do you feel about striking a balance between like community and doing things without like capitalism or over consumption, but also having scientific advancements that do make life more sustainable and easier to live? Oh.
4I mean, I would say that's what, that, that striking, that balance is exactly what we're trying to figure out now. like you said, I think the romanticization of going out into the wilderness and being on your own and fully sustaining yourself, sure it's great, but you know, it's not. Achievable for everybody. And like you said, there are amenities that are granted us by technology that really do improve the quality of our life. Not just in terms of like comfort, but like you said, it's health and, you know, keeping people alive. so finding the way to balance that. I think, like you said, it's really important. I don't have the answer for what that balance looks like, but yeah, I don't know if you.
5I think you said it perfectly. Yeah. And I think the idea of sustainability itself is tough, right? Where it's this idea of sustaining what our current standard of living. because in a lot of ways that isn't sustainable, like you mentioned with a lot of certain amenities we have. so sustaining that lifestyle, maybe that's the question we have to start with, but sustaining life itself in the most effective way and equitable way, that should be the goal. But how do we strike that balance? People smarter than me haven't figured it out. So yeah, I'm not sure.
2Yeah, no. and that the question you were saying about what about plumbing? That, that's always the question I have about watching this production or watching Survivor or anything where it's we're gonna put someone out the windows. I'm like, they're surprisingly not sunburn. Or, why are they not concerned about bugs? Or do they just, how are they, okay, maybe we're just not focused on those things because everything's happy. We're just gonna sing songs. Sorry, other question. Yeah, coming over.
7Hi. I'm Molly. I work at Unity Gardens. I've got the privilege to work with, Mac here. And so I just, I love that question because I was thinking as Matt was talking earlier. Unity Gardens is a 5 0 1 3 C. It's largely grant funded, so we rely on society, we rely on the government to pay for people to keep everything up and running. And then you brought up plumbing, which was perfect because we used to have somebody that we paid to clean the bathrooms. But very recently. We've taken that on as a staff thing. However, I do HR there. I don't clean the bathrooms. I think it's the interns. and so that's a very new thing and I've kind of felt weird about that recently of okay, how does everyone feel about this part of the job and maintaining that community space? And if you tour Unity Gardens, a bunch of unions came together to do the plumbing for. The building there that we now have for eight years or so. There was no building. There were no bathrooms.
4There's a porta potty.
7Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so now we have that and it's oh, look at this wonderful thing we have for the community. But like you were talking about the mugs. Who cleans the mugs? Who cleans the bathrooms? And I think that it speaks to the balance of we're relying on the money that we get from grants and a lot of volunteers to. Pay people to do that work. And then I don't know it, it's blurred lines a lot because it all comes together and a lot of people that are donors that keep it running or volunteers that keep it running, it's a labor of love for them. And then it's also a labor of. Livelihood for people that are paid workers there. So I just wanted to add on that. I love that you brought up the plumbing. I was like, yes, this is something that keeps me up at night. I'm not sure how to deal with it. So I don't know that's a question, but I just wanted to add to that and thank you Mac for doing all this work. Thank you. Molly, did
4you put gold on the intern? Do you put gold? I'll the intern? I was an intern and I will say that I did not have gold on me. Same.
2there's probably time for one more question if anyone has any burning questions or thoughts. Oh, should have left the mic.
3Oh my, sorry, I haven't spoken in a little while ago. Spoken. yeah, I just had a question you were describing at the beginning. How in most of these stories about Utopias, the sort of the utopian retreat doesn't really work out for one reason or another. It seems in some sense, impossible. What I'm wondering about is, does it matter what sort of the size of the retreat is? you know, these stories where there's two people or five people, is that the same sort of, do they run into the same problems that like a city or a nation or some larger group of people who's trying to do this sort of retreat would run into.
5That's a great question. I think be, because a lot of these utopias are trying to precisely escape the problems that come with too many people. But when you think back, I mean, even say one of the earliest examples of the utopian story, the Garden of Eden, that didn't work out and and those were only two people. And a lot of the stories, I mean, I'm working a lot with contemporary literature and philosophy that deals with this. A lot of these authors and thinkers are recognizing that even people attempting it on their own struggle with it. And again, and depends so much on exterior stuff of a single individual even struggles with it. So maybe there's something inherent within humans that seem to struggle with this balance, and that's so the amount of people, I don't know, but it seems to be a pretty consistency. It doesn't, cities, two people, something happens. So it's tough. Yeah. Yeah.
Closing Remarks and Upcoming Events
2That's fantastic. I wanna thank both of you for coming to this pre-show, for sharing your expertise, for sharing your thoughts, and I wanna thank all of you for joining us as well. This is a festival tradition and we love putting on these productions, but it would mean nothing if we didn't have an audience. So thank you. Thank you so much. Just a reminder, if you want to join us throughout the year, we're not just a summer production, we have. Shows that go all throughout the year. You can follow us on Facebook or Instagram or on our website. but just so you know, we're coming back in October, right over Halloween time with 12th Night with our actors from the London stage. So if you can't get enough of this cross stressing comedy thing. we're coming back, but this time, five actors doing all the roles with what they could fit in a suitcase. So a very different experience from the big production we're doing tonight. but just as fun, just as Shakespeare. So come back. Tickets are already on sale, so if you're leaving tonight and you're like, you know what, let's just grab our tickets. You could do that. but otherwise we'll be doing things like this, then as well, and throughout the year. And yeah, come back for our secret show for next summer. Thank you. Thank you. Have a great.