The ThinkND Podcast

Letras Latinas, Part 14: A Conversation with Brenda Cardenas

• Think ND

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 56:32

Episode Topic: A Conversation with Brenda Cardenas

Listen in to an oral history conversation with award-winning Poet Laureate of Wisconsin Brenda Cárdenas, interviewed by writer and poet Maria Kelson, who at the time (as Maria Melendez) was an associate professor of English at St. Mary’s College, and was teaching a course on Chicana literature. Brenda and Maria discuss playing with multiple languages in poems, the joy of listening to the music and rhythm of words, Brenda’s lively ekphrastic collaborations with visual artists over the years, and the hope that comes from writing for the audiences of the future.


Featured Speakers:

  • Brenda Cárdenas, Wisconsin Poet Laureate
  • Maria Melendez Kelson, poet and author

Read this episode's recap over on the University of Notre Dame's open online learning community platform, ThinkND: https://go.nd.edu/504f05.

This podcast is a part of the ThinkND Series titled Letras Latinas.

Thanks for listening! The ThinkND Podcast is brought to you by ThinkND, the University of Notre Dame's online learning community. We connect you with videos, podcasts, articles, courses, and other resources to inspire minds and spark conversations on topics that matter to you — everything from faith and politics, to science, technology, and your career.

  • Learn more about ThinkND and register for upcoming live events at think.nd.edu.
  • Join our LinkedIn community for updates, episode clips, and more.

Introduction and Discussing Interlingual Poetry

1

Um, my students were discussing your poetry this morning. Oh, my, my Chicano Lit class

2

Uhhuh,

1

and they remarked, we were talking about inter lingualism and they remarked how, um, in poems like, um, report from the Temple, um, you are very explicitly using both languages line by line. You're mixing'em line by line. Mm-hmm. In other poems, they're more distinct, like in calculations you have some Spanish standard, some English standard, and of course you have, then you have the, um, ro um, Spanish poems and then the pure English poems. Mm-hmm. You have a range in your inter lingual techniques. Mm-hmm. Does that follow any kind of, um, pattern in your development? Was there a period where you were writing more of one way or another? Or have you always, um, kind of. Uh, decided on a poem by poem basis. How, how has that

3

worked for you? I've decided on a poem by poem basis. Mm-hmm. Uh, I really have, I think, uh, as long as I've been writing, I've been using some Spanish uhhuh. But to what degree, whether the poem, like you say, within each line, mixed Spanish and English, or whether there's certain stanzas in Spanish or,

4

yeah.

3

Uh, all Spanish or, or no Spanish really, uh, is dictated to me by, by the, uh, the poem and what the poem is trying to do. So, uh, some of the poems where there's one stanza in English and another stanza in Spanish, there, those, there are conversational poems, Uhhuh, um, perhaps there are, for example, like two distinct human speakers dialogues, Uhhuh, right. Uh, who are speaking back and forth. And one of those speakers, uh, might be, uh, someone who's predominant language is Spanish uhhuh, and the other one might be someone who's predominant language is more English uhhuh. And so that, that reflects that. Yeah. Some of the poems aren't necessarily dialogues in the sense of, um, in the sense of one person talking to another, but there are multiple voices in the poem. Mm-hmm. And one voice, you know, multiple voices. Like there are multiple voices in our consciousness Uhhuh. So one voice might be more in Spanish and the other one more in English Uhhuh. Um, sometimes, uh, the kind of formal structure of the poem, like Report from the Temple of Confessions is written in, um, old English alliterative verse. And, and I played with that a little bit. I mean, I took some license, but almost every line follows, you know, that three alliterations per line Uhhuh, the two Hemi Stitches Uhhuh. And so in there, um, you find, uh, the Spanish and English mixed in almost every line. Um, I think partly because I was. Getting as much mileage as I could out of alliterating between languages, Uhhuh, and, I mean, that's one of the reasons I work Interally Uhhuh. Um, it's, it's not just to reflect that, you know, this Spanish speaker would speak in Spanish, but it's also to, um, play with language. Because I think, you know, that's a big part of what poetry is all about Yeah. Is, uh, how words rub rub up against each other and we can get these beautiful alliterations and, and, you know, abstinence and um, uh, you know, inter lingual rhymes. Yeah. By, by placing one language next to the other. So in that poem, um, that's what I'm doing.

4

Uhhuh

3

and that poem is also very much about crossing borders, Uhhuh, I mean the, yeah. The reason, one of the reasons I chose to, you know, write that particular poem in the old English is because the two Hemi stitches create this natural border Uhhuh down the middle of the page. That's right. And I'm responding to an installation by GUI Gomez Pen. That piece, uh, that dealt very much with the notion of border. I mean, one of the things he had in that piece was a big body bag,

4

Uhhuh,

3

um, uh, that had IS painted across it. Mm-hmm. So he's very much dealing with the issues, um, and problems on the border. And so I wanted the two languages to cross the borders, cross the of one another. Cross

1

the border. That's right. The, as you say, the form creates the border, but then the language is subverted. Right. Nothing back and forth. And I was also

3

trying to subvert old English, uh, good. By calling it old Chicano English, you know? That's right. Good to reclaim it. Reclaim it.

1

Good. Another poem that my students remarked on was our language and, um, the line that, um, stood out for one of my students that the couple of lines, uh, was on 38. Um, we work in English, make love in Spanish. That's such a beautiful and succinct way of capturing the kind of public private relationship between English and the public sphere and Spanish and the private sphere that so many individuals and so many families in the US experience. Um, I wondered what um, what it was like for you, you know, um, in your time in Pilsen. Did, was that split still present? Was English still the public language and Spanish the private language, or was was there both in the public sphere in, in Pilsen and both in the

3

public sphere, Chicago Uhhuh, very much both in the public sphere. Uhhuh, uh, my neighbors for example, and when I say neighbors, I mean next door neighbors. Yeah. Uh, with whom I was very good friends. They were an elderly couple from Texas Uhhuh who always thought they were going back to Texas and maybe someday they will be able to get back there. They've been in Chicago for years and years, um, wanting to get back to Tejas. Uh, but they were an elderly couple, uh, and we became very good friends. Um, we used to help each other with so many things. Uhhuh, they helped me make a garden and I would help them translate their social security documents. Yeah. So they could understand them in English, that community. Right. Yeah. And I mean, they spoke primarily Spanish Uhhuh. So in that public sphere, when we'd be out on the porches, Uhhuh, you know, we would speak in Spanish or me a little bit inter lingly. Yeah. In Spanglish. Even between that couple, an elderly couple, the, um, the man spoke more Spanglish and mixed more English in Uhhuh. And the woman, his wife spoke more Espanol. Uhhuh. Right. So, but, but that was more like Spanish Uhhuh in the public sphere. Uhhuh, uh, at the, at the, at all the restaurants at the, you know, Spanish in the public sphere, Uhhuh, um, at many of the stores, Spanish in the public sphere. Uh, and then, um. Excuse me, uh, uh, among younger people, Uhhuh. And that depended on the person too. It wasn't just divided by age, but among younger people, uh, depending on the context, uh, might've been, uh, more of a use of English. Mm-hmm. But I think they were both blended mm-hmm. All the time. Uhhuh and, you know, the Mexican Fine Arts Center Museum is in that community. And I worked there and I worked with youth. And really the, the youth that I taught, um, creative writing to, some of them wrote primarily in English, and some of them wrote primarily in Spanish.

4

Mm-hmm.

Artistic Collaborations and Community

3

And how many years were you in Pilsen? Um, I was in Chicago, I think about nine years, Uhhuh, and I lived in, I didn't live in Pilsen for all of them. Mm-hmm. But I think for about six years.

1

You mentioned, um, Mexican Fine Arts, Uhhuh, you work at Mexican Fine Arts Center, and we've had a number of conversations where you've mentioned your relationship to the visual arts and also to music, both being important. And of course, our hope is that when the reader looks at this book, um, she'll, she'll look and she'll see, you know, that these are, are a part of the book. They're not, you know, an addendum. They're part of the whole, they're part of a continuum of arts. Mm-hmm. Could you talk, um, a little bit more about the, the, we can start with these in particular. Mm-hmm. Talk about these, um, they're, are they wood cuts or lino cuts? I'm sorry? They're lino cuts. Yeah. Talk about, um, why it was important to you to have these as part of the book and, and then the larger question, how the arts are interrelated for you. Mm-hmm.

3

Well, it was important to me to have them in the book because, um, Pilsen is a, is a, is an interesting barrio. I mean, every barrio is interesting, but Pilsen has a quite a few artists in. I don't only mean like a new wave of artists that come with gentrification mm-hmm. Um, that's there too. Mm-hmm. But I mean, Mexican American, a Native American, uh, or Chicano, uh, artists who have been there for a long, long time, who grew up there mm-hmm. Uh, who have, uh, done their work there, who have studios there, and not the fancy uppity studios, but I mean, like studios in, in old falling down buildings. Yeah. Right. Uh, but that's where they paint and their, where they work. And I was fortunate, very fortunate to make very good friends. With quite a few of those artists. And part of it was working in the museum. Mm-hmm. Right. And getting to know people through that.

4

Mm-hmm.

3

And so, um, Jeff Abby Maldonado, who did the Prince in this book. Mm-hmm. Um, and I, uh, became friends and, um, we did other collaborations. I see. We did, um, we did a, uh, a calendar, uh, and I wasn't the only poet Uhhuh, there were six poets, Uhhuh. And, uh, the poets all wrote a poem. Each wrote a poem, gave it to the artist Jeff. Jeff created a print to go with the poem.

4

Mm-hmm.

3

Uh, in response to the poem. Mm-hmm. And then he gave us each a print and we wrote a poem to respond to the print. Oh, okay. And so there ended up being 12 sets and we did a, a calendar for the year 2000 uhhuh. And then we did, uh, shows where he, he brought the prints and they were hung Uhhuh. And we did a poetry reading. And there was a local band named CAO at that time, and they did music. And we did these at major places like the Art Institute, Uhhuh One was at the Art Institute. One was at the, uh, Chicago Cultural Center. So they weren't just like in little bars, right? Yeah. One of'em was in a bar, and that was probably the most fun. But, you know, a couple of them were, you know, in some pretty major places. Yeah. And so we had collaborated before. Um, and so that was part of what was important. One, a couple of these, uh, like the very first, uh, print that he calls Edge of Vision actually came from that, um, calendar series. Oh,

4

okay. Uh,

3

he gave me Edge of vision and I wrote medicine. Oh, okay. In response only. Um, it didn't look like this at that point. Uhhuh, I've taken it through many, many revisions, Uhhuh. Um, so the way that medicine looks in the calendar and the poem that it is, is very different. And it wasn't even called medicine Okay. At that point, right. Uhhuh

4

Uhhuh. But

3

yeah, so they, to me, um, they're just meant to go together. They're part and parcel of one another. Uhhuh, and if, if, if, uh, if you have an AraC poem. A poem responding to a, another art form. And, um, I mean, the poem should be able to stand on its own. Mm-hmm. Uh, it should be able to be read without having to look at the piece of art. Mm-hmm. But, um, it's always nice to have the piece of art there, right. To be able to say, okay, this is the poem, this was the piece of art. How do they communicate to one another?

4

Mm-hmm.

Chiapas Massacre and Personal Reflections

3

Mm-hmm. You know? Now, in other cases here, they, the, the part, the art, the piece of art doesn't go with a particular poem or, I mean, I didn't write the poem in response to that piece of art necessarily, but that piece of art to me, um, uh, speaks to the book or the collection in general. Mm-hmm. Speaks to some of the, uh, the, the issues and themes and ideas that I care about and that we see moving throughout the book. Yeah. So his print revolution, um, I didn't write, uh, turning to Go with Revolution, but Turning is a poem about. The revolution in Chiapas. Right. That's Batista Revolution. Mm-hmm. And so there's a way in which they just really speak to each other. They do. Mm-hmm. Also, because the artist is half, um, half, uh, Mexican and half Native American. Oh, I see. Um, and so there was, there's a real, um, he's alibi Alabama. That's his tribe, but he cares an awful lot about what's happening in

1

Chappa Uhhuh, you know, um, we have read, this is the third literary reference to the 1997 massacre that we have read in this particular Chicano lit class. Mm-hmm. We have, um, encountered it in Sylvia Ty's novel, the Scorpion's Tale, um, act. Actually, she, she writes more explicitly about the 94 New Year's Day uprising. Mm-hmm. But sort of, you know, the ghost of what's to come of the massacre is mm-hmm. Is in, embedded in that. And then, um. Lorna has, that has her poem, coffee where she memorializes the, the 45 with their, with their names, um, mentioned in them. Um, we talked yesterday about Juan Felipe and his whole entire collection Thunder Weavers, devoted to, um, the lives of some of the survivors of the Al Massacre. So, um, it, it's coming to, um, be a, a, a real central, um, uh, touchstone for I think Chicano and Chicano literature, uh, written in the nineties and in the, in the early part of the new Millennium. This particular event is, um, something that we, we keep coming back to and that we keep talking about. Could you, um, tell us, uh, some more about writing this particular poem and referencing that event for you? What that meant for you?

3

Hmm. Um, you know, I, I think this poem. I mean, obviously it comes from, uh, the convergence of different events that were happening at that time, both personal and political and public uhhuh. Yeah. So I was obviously reading about Uhhuh. I read about the Massacre. Yeah. Saw what happened on television. Yeah. You know, was following what was happening at that time. Uhhuh and had got, you know, was involved with, um, groups of activists in Chicago who were having protests in Chicago. Right. And as the poem says, yeah. In, uh, on 26th Street in Lata Uhhuh, um, against, uh, uh, what was the, the oppression of the people in the slaughtering of the people in, in Chappa. Mm-hmm. So I would, I was going to all those protests and those marches and, and was involved in, in what was happening there and was following it. Um, but from a distance from here. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. I wasn't there. Right. I wasn't, um, but at the same, at the same time, um, I, I, there was someone very close to me in my life. Who, uh, uh, was and is still the kind of, um, activist who did what they call a witness work.

4

Hmm.

3

Um, so he would go to Chappa. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and before that, for 10 years, he did this work in Guatemala and he worked almost like an unarmed bodyguard.

4

Hmm.

3

Uh, so he would accompaniment work, they call it too Uhhuh. Yeah. Yeah. He would live among families, uh, because he's an American. Um, the idea was that he would live among families that were threatened by, had been threatened by the death squads, and he would accompany them when they had to go away from the home, so that if they were shot at, he would be witness to it or Okay. He might be shot at first. Yeah. Okay. Uh, and so he had done this work all of his life. Uhhuh, I mean, he's really committed. He had also done, um, work where he had taken in, um, undocumented refugees from, um, El Salvador mm-hmm. Into a co-op house mm-hmm. In Michigan. This person was somebody I was very close to in, in my life. And so, uh, he was in Choppas at the time of this particular massacre. Mm-hmm. And he would, as the poem says, the poem is pretty literal. I mean, he was in the forest about 10 miles from the massacre. Mm-hmm. So I was also getting telephone calls from him,

4

Uhhuh, about

3

what was, what was going on there. Wow. And witnessed this man who had done this work all of his life mm-hmm. Who was toughened to this come back from witnessing that massacre and a, after many, identifying many people in body banks mm-hmm. Throughout his time doing this kind of work. Yeah. And really literally completely break down, close the world off. I mean, literally sit in the dark in a closed up house, like just. I mean, now he's back and doing the work Uhhuh. But what I'm saying is that for a while it was just like, I just can't. Mm-hmm. He just couldn't, uh, move almost, if that makes any sense. Mm-hmm. Uh, uh, and, and so that was going on Uhhuh, and then at the same time I had, uh, have an uncle who was, um, dying of, of stomach cancer, uh, that, uh, all started from, um, his time fighting in a war.

4

Mm-hmm.

3

Uh, and ha and getting, uh, such terrible stomach ulcers, uhhuh that, uh, eventually he, uh, got stomach cancer and he was also tormented by having fought in a war always, uh, the, the dreams in the middle of the night, et cetera, et cetera. And so, um, they had to cut out a, a big part of his stomach.

4

Hmm.

3

And it, it struck me that, um. Some of the massacre, some pregnant women were massacred, uh, in Chapas, and the babies were cut from their, their wombs. And, and then here was this person I'd loved all my life, one of my uncles whose stomach was cut away. And, and to survive, he had to eat all the time because you, you can only eat such tiny little bits mm-hmm. When, uh, when you don't have a, a full stomach that you have to constantly eat, but these teeny little morsels mm-hmm. To stay alive. And then on the other hand, there were these women whose, you know, had, had their stomachs cut away and their children, um, I mean, it's really difficult to even think about or talk about, but all I, I guess for me, the poem ended up being about, you know, my posing the question, what are the connections between, you know, I mean, here I am, this person witnessing these things, um, as are so many of us. Right. Witnessing these various things. Some from very close, some from afar. Right. Um. Doing, trying to comfort the people that I know on the personal level, the uncle, the activist, right? Mm-hmm. Trying to do my part on a public level, um, with the, the protests, et cetera, against what was happening in Chiapas and, and saying that there's, there are these connections between these violences and these illnesses. Mm-hmm. Is that making any sense? It does. I hope I'm not just rambling. It does, it makes a lot of sense. Um, I, I, I don't think we always think about how these, I mean, for me it's kind of like these, these seemingly really disparate kind of things are not so disparate. That's right. Well, that's the Yeah. Part of the work of poetry, right. Showing the way

1

your life and the life of, you know, right. Campesino or mm-hmm. Indigenous activists in the south of Mexico are, are linked. Right. Those lives are linked. That's the work of poetry, I think. Um, did it, um, I'll ask specifically about turning and then more generally about, about your poetry. Um. As you were kind of braiding these threads or experiencing the braiding of these threads mm-hmm. In your life, um, did it, did this sort of vision for this poem come to you all at once? Or was it, uh, something you had to kind of work at maybe trying it one way, trying it another way? And so the larger question is, do you feel like, um, your poet, this is a sort of odd question, but you'll understand your mm-hmm. Poet to poet kind of question. Does a lot of your work, um, for your poetry happen sort of before you start writing? Are you chewing on poems a lot in your head before you're writing them down, or are you sort of shuffling them around once they're already written? I'm doing both.

3

Uhhuh. I, I just stayed on poems a lot. Mm-hmm. I, I, so before, before writing, before writing, okay. Mm-hmm. You know, I have a poem. Uh, it's not in this book. That I don't feel like I'm still not done with that. I've been writing for 10 years, Uhhuh, and for probably seven years I was writing it in my head. Yeah. And then for three years I've been playing with it on the page. Uhhuh, Uhhuh, uh, this particular poem, turning I just did on a long time. Mm-hmm. I think, I don't remember exactly how long. Yeah. But for a while, yeah. Then it was a very different, when it came out on the page the first time I cut pages out of this poem. I

4

see.

3

And this poem is still long. It is. It's one of the longest poems in the book. It's three pages long, but it probably was seven or eight pages long. I see. And I cut away. And cut away and cut away.

4

Huh.

3

Um, and I think that for me, uh, sometimes I have to build on, but more often I have to cut away Uhhuh. Uh, because the hardest thing for me about being a poet about poetry Yeah. Is finding the structure for the poem. Yeah.'cause I don't think I naturally lean towards structure. And so my poems, when they're in a rough form, uh, when they're not very good, when I don't want anyone to see them. Yeah. They're like, so much water just spilling and gushing out everywhere. Okay. And then I have to figure out what is the container

4

Yeah.

3

For this water. Right. Okay. And, and I have to really struggle and work with finding uhhuh. That Uhhuh

1

that you're, you're in image, sort of, sort of holds a, a, a paradox of poetry in it. The idea of shaping water. Yeah. That's true in any kind of shape that it takes is gonna be sort of temporary and arbitrary. Yeah. Anyone, you know, and then the reader picks it up and it's lashes a new direction based on the reader's experience

The Future of Bilingual Poetry

3

or finding a vessel for it. Or, or, or maybe crafting a vessel for it. Yeah. Like I'm, I'm very attracted to art forms, including pottery and ah, you know what I mean? Yeah. Maybe it's that I have to find which kind of pot I'm gonna throw Uhhuh Good. Metaphorically, right? Yeah. Right. For, for the water of each poem, for that water. Yeah. In that case. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

1

Um. We've also talked in my class about who's an insider and who's an outsider when they read your poetry. And, um, and, uh, obviously, um, people who can read Spanish and hear Spanish are the insiders, um, those who can't, are the outsiders in that reverses, uh, the, the current insider outsider status in the us. And I've heard you say, um, that you're writing for an audience of the future when you write these inter lingual poems. Mm-hmm. Could you say a little bit more about that?

3

Um, well, I, I, maybe that's just hope. Yeah. Uh, and we have to have some hope even at the end of turning, what's the last line? That's right. This hope that I try to force myself to swallow or something to that. Well, let's,

1

let's read. Yeah. Something to that extent. The hope that I force

3

myself to swallow the hope that I force myself to swallow even in the most hopeless of situations. Mm-hmm. And so I do think we're moving toward becoming. A bilingual nation Uhhuh. Uh, I say that not, not meaning to be naive. I understand. And I, I'm fully aware of all the resistance to that out there. Yeah. Right. But I think you can't, I mean, up until a few months ago I lived in Chicago. There are more than a million Mexicans in Chicago alone. Uhhuh. That's just one city. Yeah. It's not the biggest city. Right, right. You know, it's not Los Angeles. Yeah. And we're only talking about Mexicanos there, Uhhuh, you know, then you've got Puerto Ricans and Dominicos and Gus and Za and Panamanians and, you know, and, uh, you know, I don't think those pop uh, well, I don't know. I'm, I'm thinking about the present state of affairs with all the immigration issues. I was about to say. Oh, I don't think those populations are gonna get smaller.

4

Yeah.

3

Um, I think there are powers that be, that will try everything they can to make them smaller Uhhuh, but I really don't think they're gonna get smaller. No. And because it's a. Because these are immigrant populations that are constantly renewing and replenishing Yeah. Themselves. There's always new uhhuh immigrant, uh, I, the language is going to stay, you know, uh, the people will bring the language with them and even though they will try to learn English, and it's, and it's very much a lie. Mm-hmm. When we hear the, you know, uh, powers that be, say they come here and they don't even wanna learn English. That's not true. Obviously we know that, you know, immigrants try very hard to learn English. We know we don't have the resources out there to teach them the English. Um, there are waiting lines 50 miles long to take an ESL class. That's right. Et cetera. Uh, and so I think that it is the language of the future, and I think we will hear more and more. We hear it now. Yes. In any neighborhood where you have a, a Latino, you know, um, community uhhuh, you hear this constant mix of Spanish and English uhhuh, sometimes more Spanish, sometimes more English, sometimes, you know, but you hear this. And so, um, and that's, I mean, that's ancient. Yeah. That goes back to, you know, right. Like, you know, yeah. It's been, it's been, um, it's been here a long, long time. Uhhuh

4

Uhhuh.

3

So I really do think that maybe my audience, uh, or an audience for these poems will grow

4

mm-hmm.

3

In time.

4

Mm-hmm.

3

Uh, right now, it's certainly not the easiest thing to do. I mean, I, it's a lot harder to get work published. Mm-hmm. When you're writing inter lingually, it scares the pants off of editors. Uh, not Mutombo press, obviously, but, but, you know, uh, in, in the, the mainstream Yeah. You know, market. Uh, uh, and it's not that I don't wanna reach monolingual speakers in either language.

4

Mm-hmm.

3

Um, I do, I really do. But I, I think. There's a lot of people doing that. Yeah,

4

sure. And

3

I also feel like I, I guess what I wanna say to people is, is open your minds a little bit. Just try it if you're monolingual in either language mm-hmm. Right. Just try it, you know, um, pick a poem. If you're monolingual in English, pick one of the poems that ha that just has a little bit of Spanish in it. Mm-hmm. And try it. Look up a few words. Go to the dictionary. It won't kill you. That's right. You know what I mean? Look, look a few things up. Ask somebody. There's plenty of people. Yeah. You know, that can tell you what it means. That's right. If you, if you have to know what it means, that's the neighbor. Right. Or, or, or just listen to the rhythms and the music of language.'cause poetry is as much about music and the way one sound riffs off another as it is about a message. Yeah. Or as it is about meaning. That's right. So just, you know, let it go. I mean, we've. There's been a lot, a lot of people throughout the history of American letters that have had French in their work mm-hmm. Or German in their work. Mm-hmm. Or, and, and we were certainly willing, people have, certainly, they didn't shut the door on ts Eliot. Right. That's right. Because he put European languages in his work. That's right. And I'm not saying that I'm TSE or that any, I'm not trying to make, I, I would never say that. But what I'm saying is, you know, uh, why does it scare you so much? Just because it's Spanish. That's right. That's right. Right. It should scare you less really. Yeah. Because, uh, Spanish is is pretty accessible out there. Yeah. In terms of figuring out what it means. You don't even need a dictionary. You can look it up on the web dictionary. That's right. That's right. You there's

1

mm-hmm. And there's something powerful about the way that your, the experience of reading your poetry insists on the belonging of Spanish in, in US society. It belongs in your poetry as it belongs, as it, um, should naturally be a part of US society. Um. Your remark about, you know, TSE didn't get slammed for his inter um, efforts. Reminds me that, um, I think Francisco shared with me that he had, uh, recently been asked the question, well, what are Latino authors? Um, adding that TS Eliot didn't already do. And I Yeah. Oh, and I, there's a lot of problems implicit in that question. And, and one of, I think the easy answers is that insistence, that sort of reclaiming mm-hmm. Of, uh, of what belongs on this continent. Mm-hmm. And Spanish is one of the languages that belongs not what one of the languages that mm-hmm. Belong indigenous languages belong. And your work does that. Your work, um, puts it in that context of, um, fitting right in with the mix. Mm-hmm. Which is something I really admire about it. Um, you had said that sound is, um, just as important as meaning for you, which, um, is something that I think people who are new to poetry. Don't always understand that sound is its own kind of sense. Mm-hmm. Beyond just cognitive sense, um, I'm guessing that some of that sensibility of yours comes from, um, your history as a, as a performance poet. Mm-hmm. You have a long history of connecting poetry with performance and Of course mm-hmm. Then sound becomes more prominent instantly, uh, when poetry is performed. Could you look through the book and, and tell me, um, which poems you think, um, are more, uh, have

3

more of an oral quality? Um, um, I would say for different reasons. That the, like, Uhhuh, because it's a dialogue uhhuh between an and his little, you know, granddaughter. Yeah. And the, the way that they talk to each other and the way that they mix their Spanish and English. Okay. I think is is pretty That's a pretty oral poem. Yes. Uhhuh then, you know, like the, yeah. Uh, because again, it's about music. Uhhuh, it's about, it's a poem about drummers and for drummers, and I really, when I wrote it, uh, the ideas in it are very simple uhhuh. It's not a complex, layered poem in terms of like, you know, layers and layers of metaphor. It's very simple ideas out on the page, just images of drummers keeping the rhythm in different ways. So really what was primary for me in that poem was the, um, the sounds uhhuh the little internal rhymes. Yeah. And things like that. Yeah. I, I also think, um. The report from the Temple of Confessions. Mm-hmm. And that's why I tend to read it at every single reading. Yeah. Yeah. Because it, it, again, the alliterations, all those alliterations in it, Uhhuh, uh, and the, the mixing of Spanish and the rhythm of it uhhuh, the rhythm of it very much lends itself to Yeah. This orality and That's right. And performance Uhhuh. And those three poems are really different from one another. That's true. And yet I think they are all like that. And as well as the, um, the Sound waves Uhhuh series, Uhhuh, I think, again, because these are poems that are about sound. Yeah. I wrote them about, I meditated on certain sounds in the Spanish language that were unique to the Spanish language. Mm-hmm. Like obviously every sound is unique Uhhuh, but that, like any, you don't have that sound in any other language. Re you don't have that sound. Um, and then I, I was kind of, I was interested in they

4

uhhuh

3

and they uhhuh

4

because

3

of the way that, um, if you're bilingual. You speak English too, you realize that those sounds in Spanish are in between two English sounds. Mm. So they mm-hmm. They, that sound it's in between, like in English it's, it's that dental Uhhuh or the T ta.

4

Yeah. And

3

then you get in Spanish, they, which is sort of in between Uhhuh and our V can be more like a B uhhuh or it can be more like a B Uhhuh. And so it's that in Betweenness I'm always really interested in those issues mm-hmm. Of int betweenness and, and borders colliding and hybridity uhhuh. And so I think I chose those two sounds, Uhhuh, because of that quality that, that they have

1

Uhhuh.

3

Um, mainly they live in a border,

4

they live in sound border.

3

Yeah. But only, only like a monolingual Spanish speaker isn't gonna think about that. Mm-hmm. Because they're not gonna, you know, again, it's very much a poem or very much poems that are much more accessible. To somebody who is bilingual and might think about that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. Um, yeah, that makes

1

a lot of sense. Uhhuh, you pointed to Ro Um, did you write the English version first or the Spanish version? The Spanish

3

version. Uhhuh. I, I wrote that in Spanish. That poem came to me in Spanish, Uhhuh. Um, and then I attempted to translate it and, you know, it was okay. I don't, I, I don't like the English version as much'cause I think there were just certain things that I did my best. Gimme

1

an example of where you feel like the English version lets you down, but where you, where you like what's present in a Spanish version.

3

Okay. A really obvious example. Um. Like, you know, in Spanish you've got, uh, and in English, this for the con The drummers. Drummers, yeah, the bongos, which is something I think I made up. I don't know if there really word, uh, you know, but let me find something that's more, um, oh, I think, uh, yeah, like the, uh, with the line with. And in English, it's how scam their tricks. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. It's just, that's just not quite the same. Right. How scam, like that's more, uh, I think, and then even obviously in the Spanish version, there's a, a swear word mm-hmm. That I didn't, you know, use just, I don't believe in gratuitous swearing. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, there's a, I don't know if I should even be saying that on this tape, but, uh, say it, you know, there's the line, you know, I'm talking about drummers. Yeah. Uh, es mm-hmm. Ment plates. And there's this where you, when you're calling something. You know? Yeah. Powerful, strong word. Right? It's a powerful word. Right. And I tried to do it in English by saying they are bad asses uhhuh before symbol storms. And it's okay. Yeah. It's okay. Yeah. It's a, I think bad asses is the best way to translate it. It's probably the

1

nearest in that context,

3

but, and I hope the archives don't mind me here, but, but it's not quite the same. The archive is blushing. Yeah, the archive is blushing. It's not quite the same,

1

right? It's not, it's not quite the same. It's, uh, and it

3

never will be quite the same. And maybe that's okay. Yeah. I mean, I think obviously you're never gonna have a translation be exactly the same as an original. And so the stand has two texts, Uhhuh. And what I'll do is, um, if I have an audience. That has a few Latinos in it, and a few people, and open-minded people, and some people who are willing to just listen to a poem for the fun of the sounds. I'll always read the Spanish version, Uhhuh. If I'm in a really stuffy audience who can imagine such a thing, who really, and I don't, I don't know that there's a single Latino in there, you know, then I'll tend to read both versions. Mm-hmm. I'll read the Spanish and then I'll read the translation.

Influential Poets and Inspirations

1

Uhhuh Uhhuh. Yeah. That makes sense. That's interesting though, to hear, you know, I can, I can really see it when you point out the difference between some of those lines where it has to do with nuance and with, um, kind of colloquial Spanish. Yeah. That, um, that, uh, that, that you really favor the Spanish version. That makes a lot of sense. Um, so let's talk about, um, poets who, whose work is important to you. We've talked a little bit about, um, your relationship to the visual arts. Let's talk about your relationship to other poetry. Mm-hmm. Um, ha. Have your, um. Have your favorites changed over time? Are there some who you keep coming back to? Are there some who you feel like, I just couldn't write another word if it weren't for so and so and and and their work?

3

I think, um, my favorites Widen over time. Uhhuh, I don't know that they change Uhhuh. Uh, there are poets I keep coming back to. Uh, but I think it just, uh, uh, the poetry that I love just gets bigger and bigger and bigger. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I don't replace one with the other Uhhuh. I just keep bringing more in. Yeah. Good. And I would say that, um, you know, on ear, uh, one of my early ear, uh, well not early. I mean, if I go early, there isn't a single Latino, because early on we were not, I didn't, I never was given any Latino writers in school. And it wasn't until I was, you know, oh, I'd say toward the end of, um, my undergraduate studies mm-hmm. That I first started to discover any, uh, US Latino writer. Uh, one of the first I read was Lorna di Cervantes.

4

Oh, no kidding. And

3

she's always been a major, major influence, uh, on my writing. And I think, uh, where you see it is in the image.

4

Mm-hmm. I,

3

I, I really, imagery and poetry. Obviously every poet works with image, so it sounds so obvious what I'm saying. But what I've heard other people tell me, and I wouldn't say this about myself, but others who've read my work have said to me, you write what I call deep image poetry. Mm. Okay. So I think maybe the cent, the image being so central mm-hmm. Is, uh, coming from Larna de Cervantes mm-hmm. From that being very central in her work, at least in her early work Yes. That I was reading at that time. And her work, uh, changes over time, you know, as does most people's work. That's right. And it gets much, and it gets more and more complex. Uh, I think over time,

1

Uhhuh Uhhuh.

3

Um, but she is always been an influence. And also not just as a poet, but as an activist. I, I mean, I so. Uh, love and admire the, the, um, the activism that she has, um, been a part of. Yeah. All the years. Yeah. Uh, and then, uh, obviously as you know, uh, I, I just adore Juan's work. Yeah. Uh, I think he is one of the very best, uh, top, I mean top. If I had only 10, that my 10 fingers, he would definitely be among them Uhhuh. If I only had five fingers, he'd be among them. Okay. Of the, of not only of Latino poets, but of American poets. Period. Okay. Contemporary American poets. I think he is one of the very, very, very best.

4

Mm-hmm.

3

Uh, and what do I love about Juan Perrera? Very different from Loren de Cervantes. Right. Very different. Uh, I love his sense of play, uh, the way, uh, which so often sound and the way one word. Riffs off of another word or one image riffs off of another as primary in his work. I love that. His work, um, makes me read it 2, 3, 4 times to try to get a sense of the ideas in it. But then even as I'm doing that, the ideas in it become less important than just the overall kind of impression, uhhuh

4

and

3

visceral sense of, you know, I connect to this and I don't know exactly why I can't tell you in this really linear way, but I feel this in my gut. Yeah. And I feel this in my heart, Uhhuh, and I feel this in my whole body, almost like a dancer Uhhuh, his poems dance. Yeah. His poems are like this modern dancer, Uhhuh, and the, the modern dancer is wearing some kind of amazing, uh, costuming. So there's all this color and there's all this symmetry, but there's all this movement. His poems move. That's part of it. It's like, I mean. I love all kinds of artwork, Uhhuh. Uh, but I'm really drawn to, in visual art, I'm drawn to a lot of stuff, but I'm very drawn to like abstract expressionism and I, I just love Jackson Pollock. Yeah. I can sit and look at a Jackson Pollock painting forever. Yeah. And I feel like in some ways, one, Felipe Erra does that with words. Uhhuh, he's just tick words, you know what I mean? Like Right. Throwing him at this canvas and drizzling him on this canvas. And, um, I, I, I, and I, I just don't, I don't see, there are a lot of poets, so many poets, and they're doing so many things. Mm-hmm. And there are certainly other poets that are, uh, as experimental or way more experimental than Juan Felipe. But I don't know that any, no one is doing exactly what Juan Felipe does. It's like, um, and I'm not saying that Juan Felipe's poetry is at all like Santana's guitar, but the comparison I'm trying to make is you. If, if you hear a Santana song Yeah. You can hear two notes and you know, that's Santana's guitar. Okay. You can, like Santana, you can not like it. Right. You can like the old music and not the new music. Yeah. Okay. But you hear two notes and you know, that's Carlos Santana on that guitar. It's that distinct. Uh, the same thing with Jimi Hendrix's Guitar Uhhuh. Okay. The same thing with Juan Perra. You know, you read his poem, the way he puts words together.

4

Yeah, yeah,

3

yeah. And I'm just, I, I, so I go back to his work over and over and over and over. Um, but I mean, those are two people that have influenced me for a long time. Uhhuh, but there's so many Maria. Yeah. I mean, God, I wouldn't even know where to start. There's so many and I'm discovering more and more every day. Uhhuh, Uhhuh, I mean, just having done a reading with you and, and, uh, RA Noel Uhhuh is his last name, Uhhuh. And we're gonna be doing a reading tonight with Paul Martinez. Yeah. All three of you. All three of your work is, I'm blown away by it. I love it. I I can't wait to get home and, you know, read those books. Uh, and, and so, and those, this, this is new stuff that's coming out. These are brand new

1

books. Yeah, I think so. There's a real, there's and there's a fellowship mm-hmm. I think among these poets who Right. You know, you and I and Paul ura, because we're all kind of, we feel like we're kind of, you know, taking hold of this period Yeah. In literary history together. And, and that's important, I think.

3

I mean, and I really like a lot of poets that are not Latinos as well. I mean, don't get me wrong. I, I mean, I, I like, uh, you an equal

1

opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's so

3

many. I love, uh, I love Tim Siebel's work. Mm. Uh, he's an African American poet, uh, who's done several books now. Um, I like, um. Uh, oh, there's so many. Now, I'm trying to think of this. A lot of Native American poets. I love Joy Harjo.

2

Yeah.

3

You know, as much of an influence as Lorna Di was, so was Joy Harl Uhhuh, one of my, the earliest poets that I just fell in love with. Uhhuh. Um, which book of hers? All of them. Uhhuh. I mean, I think maybe, um, in Mad Love and War Ah, yeah. Might still be my favorite. My

1

favorite too. I think that

3

is my favorite. Yeah. Uh, but, but I also like, um, in the woman Who Fell from the sky, there's that poem about the kitchen table. Oh my God. Mm-hmm. And there's so many wonderful poems in there, but that kitchen table poem, I, I have that poem up in my kitchen. Oh, do you?

2

Oh, that's beautiful.

Favorite Poems and Their Significance

3

Yeah. Uh, there's a whole story that goes with that, but it's too long to tell right now. I mean, I, I like, I love Lee Young Lee's work, Uhhuh, you know, I love, um, David Murra's work. Yeah. I, I mean, um. Gosh, I could go on and on and on. And there's way, this is what I hate about this being taped because there's all these people whose work I love, who I'm Yeah. Not saying right now. Yeah. Because I just can't think of them off the top.

1

That's alright. That's alright. That's alright.

3

Yeah.

1

Um, so, um, speaking of favorites, I'll share a few of my favorites, um, in this book and then I'd like you to tell me which are your couple of favorites. Mm-hmm. Um, in here, um, obviously corn flowers I've mentioned is a, is a favorite because to me it, um, it shows that kind of affinity with, um, other Chicano poets through the reference of corn, through the connection of the woman to the earth. And that's something that Chicano poets are doing again and again. Um. And it's, it's, it's a sweet, you know, mother daughter kind of poem. Mm-hmm. I think you were worried that it was too sweet. Mm-hmm. As we were editing the book, you said, oh, I'm not too sure, you know? Mm-hmm. But if you feel strongly, put it in.

3

You made me like this poem again. Well, good. I mean, and I think we tinkered with it a little bit. We did, we did. It was really slight. Yeah. But it was enough. Sometimes the tiniest revision does something. That's right, yeah. Changes the tone. I, I remember saying to you it was in the middle stanza, there's something I just don't like in that middle stanza, Maria, and I don't know what it is. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I, I, I don't remember if, I know you made the suggestion of the word, but I don't remember if you made another suggestion or you just gave me some time to think through it. Uhhuh. Yeah.

4

Mm-hmm.

1

Yeah. Well, good. I'm, I'm glad you, you feel better about it now. Mm-hmm. Now, and it's definitely one of my favorites and the first one is one of my favorites. I don't think we maybe changed a thing on that first one of medicine. Um, again, you know, for me, I'm always looking for those environmental connections and you do it so beautifully. Um, and, and, uh. You shared with me that that's always been an interest for you. Mm-hmm. That's always been a passion for you is, is, uh, connecting to the environment. Um, as you look through the collection, what stands out for you as, um, uh, as my favorite? As your favorites or the one the, uh, you know, the few that are most, maybe most important to you.

3

Well, the, my, my favorite as a poem Yeah. Is Empty Spaces Believe. Empty Spaces Believe. Good. And this is interesting because it has probably the least Spanish in it. That's, oh, I hadn't thought of it that way. Uh, that's not why Uhhuh, uh, I what, what I think why I, I'm talking only purely as a poem now as aesthetics, not as, um, not necessarily for content, uh, or I mean ideas. Yeah. But I think it's probably the most experimental piece I have. Okay. I think I'm so much more interested in experimentation now. Uhhuh, this work goes over many years. Ah, I've written these poems over a long, long period of time, Uhhuh, and I think that, um, this is a, a newer one and I'm much more interested in experimentation now than I was before

4

Uhhuh,

3

and this has that and it's a prose poem, which I haven't done a lot of and I'm really interested in doing more of. Yeah. Um, and yet at the same time that it's kind of more experimental and more in a prose poem, it's also still has that performance edge to it. It does, absolutely. Because of the rhymes that are built in to the lines. I think maybe the rhythm

1

that's built in,

3

and I think part of it is like when it's, part of it is just I think the language and it is fresher than in some other ones. Like, I don't know when I came up with that line, she is really an a ravenous subjunctive that would doubt its own bones. I said, okay, that's a lot. The poetry a ravenous subjunctive, ah, you know, I was, was really excited when I found that. Yeah, that's

1

a poem

3

right there. So I think that's one of my favorites. And then I, I, um, you know, I, I don't know. I, I am drawn, there's a way that I'm drawn to, um, okay. To, um, in that language series. And I think part of it is the, that sound wave series, part of it is the same thing again. It's that they're a little bit more, they're more lyrical, they're less narrative. Yeah. And I'm less interested in writing narratives and, you know, they're more lyrical. They're more experimental. Uhhuh, they kind of go, they, they force you to come back, you know, reread'em a couple times. That's right. Especially they, especially, mm-hmm. Um, I, again, again, it's kind of the same reasons. It's some of the lines like. The jade of stone beasts that pull thieves up the open leg vertices of our pyramids. Mm-hmm. That it's just more, it seems more fresh and more original to me. Maybe uhhuh than some of the lines and some of the ways in which, uh, words rub up, rub up against each other in some other poems, you know? Um Yes. Right, right. Uh, I worked really hard on them. Uh, maybe that's part of it too. Yeah. Um,

1

could I request a reading? Sure. Could you read Empty spaces and uh Sure. Uh, maybe, um, we'll talk a little bit about it and then read, um, bud. Yeah, sure.

3

Talk a little bit about it. Or I can do empty spaces and read one of the ones you like.

1

Oh, no, I wanna hear you reading the ones

3

that you love. Yeah. Okay. Uh, uh, empty Spaces. She is a switchblade, afraid of the hint in a two second glint that might spring you an arm's length the way I fear. She kisses close to shut the open gate of hunger, heavy footed as history perched on her chest, empty spaces. She nevertheless stumbling through the clutter of language. She rummages cramped closets for her lost sounds re tumbling like marbles spilled in the attic spaces. I fear she mainlines white noise. A guest persistent as rain flooding her muted room spaces. She adds another hue to the walls, crawling with orange and blue that zigzag the curves of her world to the ceiling. I fear empty spaces. She is reeling in a ravenous subjunctive that would doubt its own bones were it not for her grip slipping from your moist shoulders to the winter of metal bedposts spaces. I empty. She grinds against you minding only the bland blue sky that filters through the O'Keefe Hollow of her pelvis. I empty fear in this abyss. She comes rain the silence away.

1

That is one of my favorites too. That is one of my favorites too. And I, I, I love what you love about it, that it, um, takes this experimental approach in that we only learn about the she as we move along. Mm-hmm. It's, um. It's bits and pieces that add up to a whole, rather than in a more narrative poem, you're clear on who's related to who and how and, and where you are. But you sort of are on slippery footing in this poem, and it's really compelling in that way.

3

And then it has the two voices, the kind, the, the voice and italics that's Yes, I fear, and then empty spaces, and then spaces I fear. And all those different configurations of that sentence are one voice.

1

Yes.

3

And then there's the other voice, which is the rest of the poem.

1

That's right. And as you say, you have, it types it in italics and, and it kind of, um, creates a space or a rest in the rush of the prose. Mm-hmm. And you read it as a kind of pause or a sort of mm-hmm. You know, here's a different mindset, here's a different voice. Mm-hmm. And then back into the, uh, the more forceful prose and it appears more forceful on the page as well when it's not italicized. So it's interesting that the sound and the visuals can echo each other in that way too. Mm-hmm. Okay. Let's hear. Please

3

clusters, perch over open mouth stones. The sculpted men are came back necks, straining toward gods and vines. Elbows raised in angles. Birds veil, the starved sun. This is the sweating the salt of the bay. In a migration that halts and hovers, is it the glint of obsidian that lures vultures to the eye of earth or jade of stone beasts that pull thieves up the open leg tices of our pyramids. We vanish. The wind worn skull of the Longhorn in mutations making bowls of eye sockets, cups of its keratin. We carve hilts for our Bowies from the open jaw. We feed. Mussel is a buzzard's feast our brasso, his power to swarm. The new sounds echo a chamber older than memory. Our vase fling their arms open and come back to us vase. We have seen balas faster than veins of light etching the night sky. They fill our heads with ringing.

1

It's funny to say it, hearing it now because it's so present in the oral reading.

2

Mm-hmm.

1

Uh, but for some reason I didn't, it didn't jump out at me on, on the page that there are so many, many, many, many birds in that poem. It's a full of birds. I, I, I re I remember really loving the line Birds veil, the star sun. That's such a beautiful line. But, um, but to hear how, you know, AKI well and vis is it becomes a refrain and how there's buzzards and then how Avis echoes Vis. Mm-hmm. And so it's sort of full of birds in a very beautiful way. Um, was that one of those sort of, um, associative, uh, magical poetry mode? You didn't sit down and say birds and this letter, they're gonna go together. Did it sort of spring out of, um, what did it spring outta? Its

3

spring out of this whole series spring out of studying Spanish linguistics. So see, when you have to take classes like that, there can be a good end. You, you know, I, I mean I, I was taking a course in Spanish linguistics and phonetics and phonology, um, which is hard stuff to study no matter what language you're studying it in. And my having not grown up, I mean my having grown up with both English and Spanish present, but not having grown up in educated in Spanish. Yeah. Right. There's, that's a whole different thing. It's one thing to speak the Spanish of the Fami.

4

Yeah.

3

It's another thing, formal Spanish. Sure. Right. And so that of course was tough.

4

Yeah.

3

And yet I was so taken with the ideas Ah, right. And sounds and how they work and what, um, I mean, I can't even remember. I mean, this is a long time ago that I did the course studying that, uh, but that's when I wrote these poems, Uhhuh, when those kind of ideas about Spanish phonetics. Yeah. Were really in my head, Uhhuh and, um, the birds though. We're partly intentional in that, um, I, I want, what I wanted to do in these poems was work with, okay, here's this sound. What images come to our minds when we meditate on the sound? Uh, is there a history in there somewhere? And then beyond that, when the sound gets represented in writing by a letter

4

mm-hmm. What

Concluding Thoughts and Gratitude

3

does that letter look like? Ah, so the v uhhuh, I, you automatically think of bird wings. Yeah. And you think of the V formations that they fly in, in the sky. They always, you know, they always fly like that. Uh, and so the V was, uh, I was working with me so that V was in the bird was intentional uhhuh, but it wasn't intentional that he becomes all these kinds of birds. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. You know that it's a buzzard later that just happened. Right. How, why did this poem become about ancient things? Why did it, why, why did Ka Because of V-V-A-C-A, Uhhuh. Uhhuh. Right. I mean, that was all very associative. Yeah. Um. And partly because again, there's reasons because of the pyramids. You know, the, again, it's a v it's an upside down V shape, uhhuh. Um, you look at the, even the, the glyphs uhhuh on a lot of the stones and walls and you have these very geometrical kind of, uh, shapes sometimes that are triangular, uhhuh, uhhuh. Um, and so I think that, um, that is what it is that I like about these poems that they're working on the level of the oral they're working on the level of the visual. Yeah. Yeah. Now, I don't think a lot of readers realize that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's always what's disappointing to a poet. Right, right, right. Is that you're doing these things put Yeah. And the reader doesn't necessarily think about that the way the V looks. Or I did it in Ye too.'cause Ye has a tilde over it. Uhhuh. So there's all these serpentine images. The sound is also serpentine to me because of ye Yeah. It like rolls like a serpent. Right. It does. Um, and I think. Uh, I like these because they're so multilevel and layered uhhuh, but I also know that most readers probably aren't gonna think about all that. Okay. Maybe not on the first reading, but maybe

1

as they dig in, they would. Mm-hmm. Well, thank you for, for sharing the, the genesis of those. Mm-hmm. Um, we're gonna wrap it up. So thank you so much for sharing your poetry and sharing so many of your thoughts with us.

3

Well, thank you Maria. And it's so, I feel so blessed to have had the interview with you, being that you edited the book and helped me with the book so much. And, um, I'm really happy to, uh, have this at the Institute for Latino Studies, so I, I'm grateful to the institute too.

1

Yes, thank you. ILS Thanks for being here, Brenda.