Revolutions of Hope, Part 2: Through the Eyes of a Historian

Episode Topic: Through the Eyes of a Historian

Serhii Plokhy, Mykhailo S. Hrushevs’kyi Professor of Ukrainian History and Director of the Ukrainian Research Institute at Harvard University, joins Taras Dobko, rector of Ukrainian Catholic University, in a conversation about what has changed in Ukrainians and their society in the last three years during the Russian aggression, and the ways in which hope and resilience together can be fertile ground for miracles to happen.

Featured Speakers: 

• Serhii Plokhy, Harvard University
• Taras Dobko, Ukrainian Catholic University

Read this episode's recap over on the University of Notre Dame's open online learning community platform, ThinkND: https://go.nd.edu/c74a70.

This podcast is a part of the ThinkND Series titled Revolutions of Hope. 

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Transcript

Welcome and Introduction

1 0:00

Welcome to Notre Dame Spring. Welcome to our third plenary session of our conference, revolutions of Hope, resilience and Recovery in Ukraine. My name is Clemen Sag and I serve as director of the NanoVi Institute, European Studies. I always have to write this down, not to forget that, a little announcement. Please don't forget to switch your cell phones back on after the event. We don't want you to miss an important call. I hope that this day has already brought you many reasons to be hopeful. What's the power of hope? In his text, which we should quote at least once during this conference, on the portico of the Mystery of Hope, French author, Shal piggy portrays God, commenting on the virtues of face, hope and love, which are presented as three sisters on a journey walking between two adult sisters face and laugh. Hope is a little girl who, unlike her elders goes unnoticed, but hope is strong. Piggy writes that God is surprised by hope. Hope needs to be grounded in order not to be an illusion. For example, grounded in history. The Power of Hope, the Russo Ukrainian War through the eyes of Historian is the theme of this session. We want to welcome Professor Sayhi, professor of Ukrainian history and director of the Ukrainian Research Institute at Harvard University. Sayhi is a worldwide leading expert on Eastern European history with a particular emphasis on Ukraine's, historically and geopolitical context. Among his many influential publications is the 2023 book, the Rules of Ukrainian War, the Return of History. There are many demands on professor's, time for good and sad reasons, so it is a privilege to welcome you here. Welcome professor. Professor Bloke's conversation Patent host will be the already introduced. Rector Tarko, professor Doko, a trained mathematician and philosopher, a man of deep integrity has served as rector of the Ukrainian Catholic University since 2023, after 15 years in the role of Vice Rector. I have no idea how you do that. I'm proud to say that Tara is affiliate faculty of the Vic Institute for European Studies. You know, I just leave my script for a moment. I, I once asked a colleague who plays in this league, what is it like to be tall and good looking? And he said it's a curse. Anyway, welcome Tara. It's great to have you here. Welcome Tarara. This is the choreography. Professor PL will give a lecture and after that record.co will engage Cihi in a conversation if there is time. And if you have questions, and if Tara is in the mood, there will be q and a. We'll end at six 12. Thank you so much.

2 3:06

Yes. thank you very much for this introduction. Uh, thank you for organizing this event. Thank you for inviting me. It's a pleasure to be here, to see a lot of good old friends and see so many unfamiliar faces in the, in the audience. this is quite a treat. that's more than just hope. The, there is already some realization of the hope that the Ukrainian field is growing, the Ukrainian field is alive. the, uh, hope is one of the, or the most important theme of this conference, resilience is another. And, uh, I, when I was preparing for my remarks, I was thinking that if you have a hope and you add resilience, you can get a miracle. And a miracle will be part of also, one of the themes that I'm going to talk about, let us go back in, in, in recent memory, three years before today, three years and a number of days, the start of the all out Russian aggression against Ukraine. And the aggression started against all hopes, in particularly in Ukraine, also in the West. There was evidence out there that the Russian troops were messing on the Ukrainian borders. There was deep seated hope that probably this would not happen. and that hope certainly was, was betrayed. But then a different sort of hope also emerges that Ukraine will stand. And at that point it was little more than I hope than because at that time, situation is very different now, very different today. But at that time, three years ago, Washington and Moscow were actually not on the same page. They were very different attitudes toward what was happening in Ukraine, what was happening in Russia. But there was one basically silent agreement. And it included not just Washington and Moscow, but also Brussels and other capitals. Ukraine would not last. Ukraine was domed. It would not go beyond, if not three days, then at least two weeks. Where we are today, it's already fourth year of the war. Ukraine stands tall, others are fallen. Ukraine stands in Ukraine, keeps fighting, which is from the perspective of where we were three years ago, is nothing short of a miracle. If you think about country that has no Navy, defeating Navy of a major country, cold War superpower and forcing the Russian Navy into the western part of the Black Sea, chasing them away from the Crimea. is there is any other explanation? Probably we can add other words to that as well, but certainly hope, resilience and miracle come to mind. We don't get good news now from the frontline in Kursk, but imagine three years ago that the Ukrainian armed forces would go into the territory of the Russian Federation and would actually be able to stay there for now months, for more than half of a year. Of course, probably no one would would imagine not only in Washington or Moscow, Brussels, but also, but also in Cave. We are now not in the place where we certainly wanted to be three years ago where we wanted to be or expected to be even one month or maybe two weeks before. Today, we're in a much more uncertain and a much more dangerous place, but that is where, where hope and resilience. To the fore. What I'm going to talk about today will be just one episode in the history of the Ukrainian War, and that episode is about another, quite, quite, on the one hand unexpected development. Something that happened against the hope that it would not happen, but it's also an episode that gives, at least it gave me a lot of hope, and I researched it. That is the story of the Ukrainian resilience of roughly 300 men and women of the Chernobyl nuclear power plant who went through the Russian occupation of the nuclear power plant of Chernobyl town itself, of the exclusion zone in the first months. And one week of the All Out War. this is the subject of, my book that was released, last year in the fall of last year. And, um, it'll appear in Ukrainian translation. The publication date is, March the 10th. And I certainly, there's a lot of anxiety waiting for that moment, but also for the, situation in which some of the key characters of that story will be able to read this book. And then whether they will recognize themselves or not. We, we'll see how it'll happen, but that's, that, that's where my, my, uh, sort of anxiety comes from. So what, happened in, okay. What happened in Chernobyl? there is a lot of talk about this war in the past and also today, and a lot of concern about the war going nuclear.

The Russian Occupation of Chernobyl

2 9:35

Well, the reality is that the war went nuclear already on the very first day of the all-out Russian aggression. For the first time in history, the Russian army occupied a nuclear site. A week later, the largest nuclear power plant in Europe, the Parisian nuclear power plant was occupied as well. And more than that, there was a battle taken place on the territory of Za Parisian nuclear power plant. This is an image of the, sort of the equipment that was used. To prepared to storm the, headquarters of the Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant Company. And, on the side of, uh, Chernobyl plant and, uh, intimidate, intimidate the, Ukrainians that were working there. very often, we think about Chernobyl in terms of exclusion zone, and it is a 30 kilometer exclusion zone, which, for some short period of time in 1986 when the accident happened, indeed was just a 30 kilometer exclusion zone when they didn't know where the wind was blowing, what, what the radiation levels were, and so on and so forth. But the real cherno zone is like that. As you can see there are in the background, there are the levels of the, radiation poisoning. As you can see that, even this neutral novel zone, the, the small circle is 10 kilometer larger is 30 kilometer. And then what you see here is the Ukrainian part of the Cher Nobel exclusion zone to the north. It, there is a bell Russian one. So, this, uh, highly contaminated areas and the new borders really don't fully correspond yet to the contamination zones. But this is not a good place to, work. This is not, this is a dangerous place to, to do anything there. And of course it's not a great place to conduct war. But what happened was that the Russian army that attacked from the territory of Belarus. The shortest way to get to Key was Richard Nobel. This, uh, the, the, the, the, this is the direction of the attack. And within the very first hours of the war, really the Chernobyl nuclear power plant already ended in the rear of the advancing in of the advance in Russian army, uh, the, Russian tank and the, uh, um, soldiers from the Russian National Guard. These are their commanders, general Burakoff and Colonel ov, who are later given the award of the hero of Russia for allegedly saving the world from the United Chernobyl disaster, when in reality they brought that disaster to Chernobyl and, uh, what we, this is a battle, uh, I'm not trying politically correct here with Fox News as the image that I got, but this is the live, the, the, the live reportage on the, on the, uh, attempt by the Russian army to take over Cher Noble, uh, sorry, Parisian nuclear power plant. One of the Ukrainian engineers put the feed from the cameras of internal, uh, surveillance to the YouTube channel, and the entire world was able actually to see what was happening there. So, close to 300 Ukrainian Novembers of the National Guard. The engineers and operators, the support staff at the Chernobyl nuclear power plant found themselves in captivity. And that is, that is basically where my story is focused on and where also the hope where the resilience and also where the miracle resides, at least in the way how, how I look at that story. This man, his name is Valenti Ko. He was 59 when he led, he was a, foreman of the crew. They were, came for to work for 12 hours, roughly 80 people. he turned 60 at the time of the, of the occupation of the Chernobyl nuclear power plant. And if you look at him, if you listen to him, I never met him in person, but I watched. Hours and hours of interviews with him and appearance, he makes, he is a very quiet and unassuming man, sort of a computer geek, but oh my gosh, what, what, what a strong character that, that that person has and how he led people around him in this absolutely situation of uncharted waters and how he was able to really defend his dignity, the dignity of his staff, and also show resilience and resist in so many ways. Many, he was the leader, but others were there as well. So these people are in the rear of the Russian army as far as they know. The Russians moved on Kyiv probably, and Russians are telling him that Kyiv will fall within the next few days or next few hours. they are kidnapped, but they were able to turn the tables on their, on the occupiers. They were able to kidnap kidnappers in a very, in a very particular way. It started from the very first encounter with the Russian commanders when, well, Hako said, okay, I am so-and-so and I represent here Ukraine. Who are you? They gave their names and then he said, what are you doing here? The answer was, well, we are here to protect the dangerous nuclear site from the Russian, uh, sorry, from the Ukrainian nationalists and Band Rights. Hako tells them. Do you have a definition? What band right is, do you know what you're looking for? They looked at each other and he said, well, if you don't have a definition, you can start arrests with me. So they have, that's how the, the the, the, the conversation starts after two, three hours. The Russian military commanders leave the office where they agreed on the way how what actually they were accepted the limitations of their power on that nuclear power plant. He told them that you think that you took over, regular nuclear power plant. You're absolutely wrong. They indeed, the group that, um, command us that was there engaged in the capture of the cherno nuclear power plant. They, trained on the course nuclear power plant that Ukrainian armed forces moved, relatively close last summer or two, but they had no clue what Cherno was. the, Russian scientists that then came late, and engineers also didn't know what to do with that, because that was a unique, and it is a unique in the world, uh, nuclear, nuclear site with absolutely unique, new confinement over the fourth reactor that was not so far ago, hit by a Russian drone, uh, with the, not so unique but very dangerous, cooling ponds where the, uh, fuel from the functioning reactors, the last reactor was closed in the year 2000. The fuel is actually too hotted. It is kept in the, in the, uh, uh, cooling ponds, which need pumps need electricity and so on and so forth. So, he could hold them that, okay, either you are behaving according to our rules and the rules of the state of Ukraine and International Atomic Energy Agency, or you are all living this place in the coffins. the, special zones were where the Russian military were, uh, agreed that they would be able to get to those zones only on the basis of the permissions issued by Haku and his people. So they used their knowledge of nuclear energy and nuclear power and that site. They used this knowledge really to empower themselves. They were still under occupation. There were a lot of limitations, and there was a lot of abuse and a lot of pressure. But they acquired that power that they used through the all period of the, uh, occupation, to really defend their dignity and also to, to protect themselves, but also their families in the town, in the city of SLA where their families lived. they, the, the, the, the ways of resistance were very varied. One, and, it seems to me the images, yeah, this is, this is, Lu Kazak, one of the engineers, the nuclear power plant, Chernobyl nuclear power plant. There was, uh, the majority were men, but there were roughly maybe 10 to 15 female personnel engineers. Uh, uh, one, one it seems to me was a soldier in the Ukrainian National Guard, and they faced the situation of a sword that you encounter in reading about the Red Army in Berlin. So the, the station is occupied, the ru, the, the, the, the Russian soldiers are there. they engaged in looting. They engaged also in drinking. The Ukrainian sources say that one third of the garbage that was produced were empty bottles. So women find themselves, especially in a very, in a very difficult situation. Again, Haku is there other members of Ukrainian personnel to help them, but also they try to establish good relations with the, uh, commanders, with the generals. And, uh, Milla, Kazak was stopped more than once, and they demanded that she would be wearing the white, the white armband, which basically Ukrainians resistant, resisted in all this area. It reminded certainly many of them about either family memories or the films about World War ii, about Holocaust. she resisted, she didn't want to wear, uh, white armband. And, uh, eventually one of the Russian soldiers stopped her and said, okay, we know who you are, but in the, uh, during the nighttime, if we see you and there is no armband, we don't know who is approaching. You can be killed. So she goes to the general and says, would I be allowed instead of armband to wear a white, hat that the, the, the personnel was hearing. So that was her first small victory. The next one came with the, she had a scarf, multicolor scarf, and she got out of their blue and yellow thread and embroided the Ukrainian, treatment on her cap. And, and, and went through the entire, through the entire, occupation period, wearing that head. at the moment when, the news came that Putin gave a speech in which he, made a veil threat of the use of nuclear weapons, it was early March of 2022. Hako called in the Russian commanders. And told them, well, if this is happening, we have nothing to lose. I work here since 1987. I will find the way that you'll never actually live this place alive, and here are my demands, do this, this, and that. Most of my sources come from the Ukrainian side, but that particular, that particular episode is confirmed by the Russian commanders who were on the Russian TV describing how difficult and how dangerous the mission was, and that the Ukrainian head of the, uh, chief of the shift threatened them with the nuclear disaster. Those commanders were basically well educated and intelligent people, but they believed that actors were still operating, and that was, that was the power. The, of, of the Ukrainian personnel on the nuclear power plant, they were playing all sorts of, tricks on their, captors. One of them was when the two operators are passing, Russian soldier and one asks another in Russian, the, the, I'll talk about that, the 80% Russian speakers. And the, the question was, do you still have those pills that we were prescribed to deal with the radiation? And the other guy says, no, I ran out of that. And then the answer goes, then we are screwed. And they pass by and, and, and the soldier is the thing. He never got any, he never got any, any pills. this were, people who came from, the, I I'm talking about the Ukrainian, the Ukrainian, personnel of the station. they lived in the city of Slavo that was, uh, and is approximately 60 kilometers away. There is a long story of the change of shifts that I described there, but the point is that the city of Slavo is the youngest city in Ukraine, and this is the last Soviet city. The regions of SLA are named after the Republics, Georgian Armenian, about, uh, after Moscow and land graduate list used to be called, so where the construction workers came and helped to build the city. The population was also the late Soviet, its basically imperial city with people coming from all sorts of parts of the Soviet Union and the city that until 2020 voted for the party of regions. But in the battle between much stronger Russia and much weaker Ukraine, they had chosen to stay with Ukraine. And there was, looking at what I know from the Ukrainian sources checking on the Russians, there were actually no, no people who sw, who were switching sites. And they found themselves in really, really impossible situation. The first time in history, the war is coming to the nuclear power plant. There are no protocols. No plant ever in Zaia or in Chernobyl was built with the idea that actually it could withstand the the battle happening on the nuclear power plant. What is in this condition's loyalty and what is betrayal? Is it Loyalty means that I take up arms and fi fight back at the tank and tank shoots at me, and we are getting a nuclear disaster. Or the loyalty is actually to work with the occupiers to preclude that disaster. In Chernobyl, the, the National Guard lays down weapons, weapons in, they're fighting back this, uh, this is gray, this is gray area. There are no laws on the international level. There are no regulations. This people on the sport decide who they are, what is their position, and how they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're supposed to deal with that. And what, what, what comes out of that? The level of solidarity, the level of resistance, and the level of hope. This occupation will come to an end is really astonishing. they decided for themselves what loyalty was for Valentin Hako. He was saying that loyalty is actually to stay here and to follow the protocols of international anti energy agency in a sense that we are not allowed to leave the station because it would explode. One man, left the station and went to his family walking through the war zone, approximately 60 kilometers, a very dangerous trip. Hako considered him to be a traitor according to the Ukrainian law. Probably he was the only one who, who didn't, who, who didn't betray Ukraine because he refused. He refused to work at the Chernobyl nuclear power plant. They didn't know what, what, what to expect When the, when the, uh, Ukrainian army shows up, they refused to surrender that, that they resist in any way possible. But they don't know what will happen when the, the Ukrainian army will show up when there is a exchange of shifts and they have to go. this is the, station and then the city of sla, they had to cross the, the, uh, new pro, uh, to get to sla. This, uh, sketches from the Washington Post, they published, uh, one of the chapters of the book. so it was very difficult to find, to find a boat. And fishermen who are approached, they said, we are not going to do that because actually there. They're collaborators. We don't want to help collaborators to go on one side of the river or another. as I mentioned, they were people of different ethnic backgrounds. Some of them spoke Ukrainian, mostly spoke Russian, some of them with very strong vulgar accent. not, not Ukrainian, Russian, but really Russian, Russian accent. And, uh, they, they resisted not only at the Chernobyl nuclear power plant, but they also resisted the city of Slavo where their families were. Eventually, they were exchanged, and the moment they arrived in Slavo, the attack, the Russian attack started on the Slovo. So they created a self-defense unit. They were holding the city for two or three days, and, uh, their new shift at the Chernobyl nuclear power plant send a message to Moscow that unless you stop attacking our city and our families, our deal is off. We actually, and in all of that, you will get an explosion here and the Russians backed off. And there is a story of the, transformation really, of the society.

The Role of Religion and Community

2 29:47

I'm talking about the very Soviet society that now raises in defense of Ukraine. There is a story of, um, one Orthodox priest, Yvan spin in, in, uh, s He comes from Western Ukraine. He was considered to be a nationalist before 2014. He serves in the Moscow petro Cage in the Orthodox Church. Moscow Patriarchate after 2014. Atmosphere in the city changes. Manuel, look at him actually as a, as a, as a, a traitor and as a mosco, uh, uh, uh, Moscow file. And, uh, when, the Russians approached and, and moved to the center of the city, father NDA was, was conducting a liturgy. And he saws what is happening? He said, I was dressed, I was ready to die. He rushes there, runs against, against this Russian soldiers. And one of the Russian soldiers is a former seminarian. And they engaged in a sort of semi theological debate on what is happening and what, what the, the, the, the, the Russian seminarian says that actually you are punished for your sins and the priest says you are, uh, uh. It seems to me you are punishment or you, you, you a sin or something like that. So the, there is this story, and at that time the Russians started to back off, partially probably because, because of the orders coming from the top and, and given what, what was happening? What was happening at Chernobyl nuclear power plant and the threats that were there. there is another very interesting moment in, that story that is related directly to religion. Yeah, that's, that's an image of in the city of Zaia nuclear power plant. Under the Russian occupation, the, the workers of another city, like, like, uh, like sla, very mixed background. March. This is the deputy mayor of, of the city who was eventually kidnapped by the Russians.

3 32:07

It says Russians go home.

2 32:11

Yeah, Russians go home. so as I, as I mentioned to you, the attack on the Parisian nuclear power plant was on YouTube channel and was, was transmitted in real time. there is a organization in Ukraine, which is basically, regulates nuclear industry in the country. Every country that has nuclear industry has such organization and it has a website and, uh, uh, normal people don't go on that website. what I mean, normal are people who don't belong to the industry, right? There are. engineers and scientists and, and it is difficult to understand sometimes if you're from outside of the industry, what they're talking about, what sort of advice they give to each other. There is that moment when they're watching what is happening at the operation. Nuclear power plant, the scientific discourse in which they were involved. Ants, they're not given anymore any advice for roughly 20 or 30 minutes. The discourse is religious. There's highly educated, probably believers or non-believers, but certainly nor normally people who don't talk in those terms. They're saying, mother of God, protect us, protect Ukraine. it, it, it is going probably for, again, as I said, 20 or 25 minutes before they, they, they realize that crisis is not there. Eventually they switch, they switch to the, the. Lingua that they, that, that they normally use, uh, secular and scientific and so on and so forth. the, Chernobyl, acquired in the Ukrainian history, in Ukrainian memory. a place of, uh, really enormous significance, not only political and cultural, but also religious. It was my, one of the also major factors that, really turned toward religion. people in that area. it was, uh, certainly the story that made, prominent Ukrainian poets like Yvan dra to, to write poems with strong religious motives. And, uh, it was interesting for me to see how, how religion to a degree came back and returned. Now, not just only literature novel, but toia and, uh, how people were turning to religious themes and religious leaders were becoming the leaders in, in the community in this absolutely terrifying circumstances. The story of Chernobyl, unlike the story of, uh, Zaia has a happy ending. It is the happy ending. Today, the Ukrainian armed forces show up. They're welcomed. A few weeks later, anniversary of the Chernobyl disaster of 1986, April 26, president Zelensky rewards Jeko and other people with the decorations of Ukraine. They recognized not as collaborators or traitors, they recognize as heroes. The story of zaia actually continues still today. Two days ago, the, the news were about the Russians Putin on trial, one of the workers of the Za Parisian nuclear power plant, allegedly for, uh, working together with the Ukrainian intelligence or Ukrainian or Ukrainian government. the, but the story of Chernobyl gives example, gives hope, provides also, uh, a testimony to the. Formation in Ukraine or in your society, society in which it doesn't matter what your roots are and origins were and what language do you speak and what church are you going to? These people from the most Soviet cities in Ukraine decided contrast spar, hope against, hope to fight back. And they succeeded. they emerged as victors in this, first of all, mortal struggle with occupiers, but also Ukraine. Ukraine came and liberated them. before the talk, I googled what hope was about, what is hope. And there are many definitions of that. And some of them sounded. Were discussed and, and, and, and you could hear them today. The one that artificial intelligence produced first for me was saying that this is ability to assess capacity, to achieve goals and then stay motivated. people in Chernobyl certainly were able to achieve that. I want to end my remarks with appeal to all of us, never to underestimate our capacity and ability to achieve goals that we have in front of us, and never lose hope, stay motivated, and miracles do happen. Thank you very much for attention.

4 38:16

Thank you so much, professor Khi for, uh, your presentation and especially for sharing the stories of real concrete people, who were indifferent and on whom so much depended at that particular moment in our

Q&A: Civic Engagement and Societal Changes

4 38:36

history. I have got, you know, three questions related to your presentation, and I would like to jump, uh, directly, to those questions. Uh, you know, first of all, you know, these stories also reminded me about other stories that were told and described and fortunately gathered. And there are many of them in around the country. Uh, and actually one of the projects at the Ukrainian Catholic University is called, you know, uh, small Stories of the Big War. Really to highlight those real people who in their particular way responded to the crisis, to the disaster, to the war, and behave behaved in a human way. And I also remember an article by, you know, an applebaum in tuk from, I think it was in late, late fall 2022, when they interviewed different people in, uh, Heron Region, who escaped from occupied territories and who either served in local self-government governance or were a volunteer. And all of them were, questioned by occupiers who couldn't believe that people are doing something for the sake of the common good and not being motivated just by. Some financial gain or by fear, from the authorities and they suspected them of being part of some, you know, secret organization. Therefore they were like arrested and questioned. And my question is, first question is what you think, what you kind of see as a main change, what stands out for you in a special way? during last three years in Ukraine, can we talk about new quality of Ukrainian society? So you started mentioning about, you know, the civic engagement and other things. Could you develop a little bit, elaborate on that? Sure.

2 40:51

Well, uh, first of all, you mentioned the name of Natalia Muk. This is a prominent journalist in Ukraine. She also runs the project, which is called Reckoning Project collecting Evidence. So good part of what. I have in my book, what I discussed today comes from the Reckoning project. Mm-hmm. They were partially founded by USAD. So I want to thank the US taxpayers and that particular organization for, for, for, for doing that important work and support in, in such organizations in the past. I hope, I hope Yes. Contra. that will, that, that, that will happen again. the, I am, I'm a historian, right? So what I was doing in that book is something that I was not supposed to do. we are working with the archives, we're working with historiography and make our argument against something that was written before us. And, um, here I was working with really, very, very recent developments. So, uh, and, and the, for me it was really very important to look at what happened in Chernobyl. And that was my really empirical understanding of the Ukrainian society. and there were highly motivated, or sorry, highly educated people like Hako and others, but there was also in the town of Chernobyl, there were, uh, the, women who are known through one of the films that was also available here and still is available in the United States, which is called Babka of Chernobyl. And those were illegal settlers in the area, most of them, female of, O over 50, over 60, who were engaged in the sort of partisan warfare with the Ukrainian state because Ukrainian state police in particular was trying to actually push them out from, they're not supposed to live there. It's, it's dangerous. And they were finding the way to live there. And, um, when they were occupied, there were no actually stronger Ukrainian patriots than those babushka Nobel, uh, the, the, the, the, the, the, the interviews with them, uh, very interesting, in terms of their communication with the, with the Russian soldiers. And, looking at what is happening on the Russian side, disregard for life not only of Ukrainians, but of your, of, of your own soldiers, sending your troops through the. The most dangerous place in the world. The exclusion zone on the heavy equipment rising, radioactive dust. I have a, I was showing the digging, digging the trenches in the, on the verge of the red forest. there was a lot Soviet. There was a lot for me about 1986 and how the Soviet Union actually functioned and how it treated people. And my conclusion was actually that, that, that, that Russia didn't change. Actually it got worse in that particular case because what you didn't see at Cher Nobel was lutin. That was absolutely, absolutely central part of the Russian operation during the first. And first months of the war. So, the, the, the Soviet line of disregard for human life, it continued the Soviet line when actually the commander tells you something and you are doing that, it continued. One of the reasons why KO was actually so, I don't know, brave or, or, or so, so open in, uh, opposing to the, uh, Russian, military commanders because he saw them back in 87 and 88. And he had, contempt for, for them, for the Soviets and then for the, for the Russian officers. He was telling one of the Russian officers, I'm not, I, I don't know how you're going to sleep at night. You brought this young kids, his Russian soldiers there, and they're living in this radioactive dirt and this and that. how you're doing that. So. that's this Soviet plus new, new Russian realities. That's one line, another line that I found out, and I, I was, I was looking at that and I was thinking, okay, it can be also black and white on one side and another am I just engaged in the, in the warfare myself and, and Miss, Ms. Gray. But at the end of the day, what you see on the Ukrainian side is actually the self organ, self, organization. There is a level of dignity that now commander is a, is able to really tell you, how to behave or how not to behave. And on the other hand, this, at least in that industry, in this place, there was this, really almost religious adherence to the. Regulations and the norms of, of the, of the, of the, uh, safety, culture and procedure and so on and so forth. So, I understand that actually world is not black and white. This war is black and white, but people's behavior can be different. But I couldn't take on, I, I was going back to the sources. I was checking them. It's, it's, it's two very different societies which also explain why the miracle of 2022 in Ukraine, or why Ukraine resisted and why Ukraine, uh, uh, prevailed.

4 46:47

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much, much. And I would like to come back, you know, to the beginning of your speech and there was an interesting line. I would like you to elaborate a little more about

The Role of Democracy in Ukraine's Struggle

4 46:58

it. So you mentioned Ukraine stands, others are falling. So it seems that maybe I know what you meant, but. I assume that probably you meant that democracy is in many places on retreat and we also, uh, witnessing the influence of far right, parties growing in Europe and in the us. And my question is, you know, honestly speaking also there are, we have some people in Ukraine who believe that, you know, in such a world, a rising national egoism, it is silly and even maybe self-defeating to adhere to the democratic vision of the Ukrainian National project. And I wonder how war influences, you know, the situation, and did the war make this far right project more appealing to the Ukrainian population? How does Ukraine handle its character as a political nation during the war?

2 48:07

I had in mind something different. um, I, I, I published an interview in, in Lemon. It seems to me yes. Where I said that Ukraine is standing, America is fallen, and this is the chance for Europe to assert its Asians so fallen. I was talking about Ukraine's biggest ally, who has certainly, fallen as, as an ally. so that, that's what I meant. But in terms of the, democracy and democratic project, democracy is a huge, huge, huge, huge part of this war. In the last few months, it became maybe not very, very, um. the discussion about war and democracy doesn't get the sort of attraction that it was getting back in 2022. But it doesn't mean that democracy is, is somehow diminished in its significance and its importance. democracy in Ukraine is, was and will continue to be a much larger threat to Putin's Russia than NATO ever was or ever will be because it gives an example to someone who says Russians in Ukrainians so on, and the same people, and if others believe in that, that Ukrainians are democratic. What is wrong with the Russians? This is the first question. This is a threat to the regime that, as I said, no NATO will ever, will ever present. Another, another important part of, so crushing, not just Ukraine, crushing Ukrainian democratic project is essential for the survival authoritarian regime in Russia. As simple as that, Ukraine, staying democratic has the right to apply and be a member of the European Union, the union that is open only for democratic countries. So that's, that's another important geopolitical category there. And then the third point that I want to make, it's sometimes may be easy to imagine that, okay, Ukrainians talk about democracy to somehow get on the hook, either Europeans or the Americans or the Canadians, please help us for the sake of democracy. The reality is that for Ukrainians to understand themselves, to explain what is happening in terms of democracy, in terms of freedom related value and related category, is the most natural way to think about themselves. We had here discussion about, about, multiplicity of religious backgrounds of Ukrainians and Ukrainian leaders. the, the president is an ethnic Jew. The Minister of Defense is, is a Muslim, is Aian tartar. the, commander of the Ukrainian army Ky is, is a Russian from Russia. The, you get, you get news, you have videos from the Ukrainian frontline. You hear at least two languages, Russian and Ukrainian. So if you are not fighting for religion or particular, particular sort of, of the church, which is right, and everyone, every, every other church is wrong, if you're not fighting for particular language, or you, uh, have this fight in more than one language, what are you fighting for? You are fighting for your way of life, which is about democracy and which is about freedom and is very deeply rooted in Ukraine, no matter what region it is, what religion it is, what language are people speaking. So this is about Ukrainian self-identification rather than an attempt to sell themselves in a particular way to, to, to potential allies. That's, that's at the core. And then geopolitical issues about vi I was talking before the threat, the threat to Russia, the ability to join European Union, that the, the, the, the, the, the, that, that comes, creates a frame. But at the center of that is, is Ukrainian experience and Ukrainian self self-identification. Thank you.

4 52:51

In your presentation, you mentioned what I would call local story of deterrence. When, when, Valenti Hako was threatening, Russian soldiers that if they don't stop, he will kind of blow up the station. And it reminded me one of, you know, your conversation I think you had with, Ko, who is a philosopher, and, uh, there was a discussion about, you know, cold. And that this deterrence model during Cold War was, based not only on the mo model of military balance, but also on the so-called balance of fear. What we see now that somehow it seems that Russia has a monopoly of scaring. Of kind of blackmailing Yes. Others. And, uh, in the sense using some, somehow this balance of fear is to be the, is destroyed. And my question is, now we have this story Tores here, local story, how to make Russia scared.

2 54:00

Yeah. I think that there was, there was, enormous disbalance in, in, in fear. again, Churchill was talking about balance of terror and, uh, I, I kind of piggybacked on him and, and added fear. So. Balance of fear. And it was, uh, Putin was threatening with the use of nuclear weapons. And, uh, Chernobyl was under occupation. The war was happening on zaia. But the headlines in, in, in the media were about what Putin said or what didn't say when, when the nuclear was, the war already went nuclear in one very particular one, very particular way because the way how radiation acts on the human being on the environment, there are some differences, but they're not significant between the bump and the, and the nuclear power plant. And the, the fear of, Putin using nuclear weapons was for President Biden administration. My conviction is the key reason of delays with the supply in Ukraine with the, uh, with the equipment that was needed, with the armaments that were needed, and so on and so forth. And, uh, the, the big concern was about the red lines. Crimea was the Red Lion. So the, the supplies were not going after the successes of Ukrainian army in October, 2022, because Putin started to blackmail again. And the US intelligence was saying that chances are 50 50 that he would use nuclear weapons because the Russian front collapsed. So, and, and if Crimea, there would be of course, nuclear war. Ukrainian army today is fighting on the territory of the Russian Federation. Ukrainians went there without informing Washington and, uh. Almost a year. I, I didn't hear actually much concern about Russians using nuclear weapons. and the, the key reason for that, there are many reasons. Us, us diplomacy was working very well and also engaged in China, and there were pressure from China and India were not interested in, in things going nuclear. So there were many elements, but the key element of actually where I think there is a much more balance of, of, fear, the key, the, the key factor that brought that in, in, in relative balance, uh, was the, the, uh, Ukrainian bravery and Ukrainian resistance. they, they were calling the bluff. They were calling the Russian bluff. so we, we, we certainly hear about nuclear weapons in the third World War again and again now and today. but comparing to my understanding of what was in 2022 and 23 and how really concerned were people in Washington about that possibility, this is more like a particular use of particular trs rather than expressing the real concern.

4 57:19

Thank you.

Audience Questions and Historical Perspectives

4 57:20

Now I think we can take a few questions from the audience. Uh, yeah. Professor Anova first, and then here, professor Anova.

3 57:33

Well, thank you sir. He, for this fantastic, fantastic story and for this new book. I mean, you are writing fantastic new books much faster than we can read them, so thank you. Thank you for that too.

2 57:48

N never give up and hope.

3 57:52

And I want to basically also, make yes a comment on the argument that the real threat to Russia is Ukrainian democracy. And, uh, I was very suspicious of Zelensky when the day he was elected, but in sociologist, I had to take it seriously. 73% of the people saw something him. But then I heard his inaugural speech and after everything he said, he went, you, Bella Russians, you Russians, we did it. You can do it too. That moment I know that he was not a Putin, you know, basically man, as everybody was afraid he was, or a Kosky man and that they Putin knew that he could not make deals with Zelensky. That he was a serious. Democratic leader who could not so easily be basically, I guess corrupted, if you wish. And so in this respect, I think it's very, very important be, I mean, I was suspicious because basically he made fun of everything that for lot of Ukrainians was sacred, right? Not only the church that Thomas all the histories, the course, everything that now of course abuse is sacred, but so, but these Democratic core was there and has been really, really his, his redeeming thing, I would say.

2 59:19

Yes. I actually was terrified when Zelensky was elected. and, uh, really what you, what you see just going beyond Zelensky is that it's, it's a new generation of Ukrainians. Who, came to the fore and very much who really, carried the burden this war, not just younger, the, the army, we are saying disproportionately the right people in their, in their fifties and sixties. But if you look at the, at, people in the positions of, power in the army, in the government, in the state, in the ministries, in, in, producing drones, in, in, in, in, this is basically in terms of the political group and, and managerial group. These are all people in their thirties roughly. Uh, Zelensky is the oldest outta all of them. And, um, that's, that's, about also generational change. And I wonder to what degree different generations have also different hope or different expectations with, and on, we, we discussed her presentation at Harvard, and one of the themes, there was probably not enough time also to talk about the, the differences, generational differences, uh, between the, uh, activists of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church around late 1980s and their different expectations. So the expectations and hope of this generation are different and, uh, they're, they're certainly not the only one who fighting back the of Chernobyl as well, right there in the trenches. but it's, it's, it's a, it's a new generation that came to the fore and generation that is, is, is different from the people who came from the Russian and Belarusian side to liberate them. Quote unquote. Of course

4 1:01:20

there was, there is a hand from Matt. Right.

5 1:01:30

Thank you, sir. So I'd like to return to this question of the historians gaze. So what particular advantage does a historian have in telling this story? What makes a Soviet city in 2022? Not such a Soviet city after all. And I'm thinking in particular, not to lead your answer too much, but about the relationship between Ukrainian society and the management of the environment. The appreciation of nuclear power I used to teach long time ago, it's quite a good book by, uh, Adriana Petrina, uh, anthropologist at the University of Pennsylvania called Biological Citizenship, which he argued Ukrainian legitimacy. As a new state was very much premised on its ability to handle the aftermath of Chernobyl. So I wonder what you think of that idea. Thank you.

2 1:02:25

thank you. yeah. Chernobyl was at the, at the foundation of, uh, Ukrainian, uh, mobilization and the birth of Ukrainian politics, especially in Kyiv and, and, eastern Ukraine almost to the same degree as the, uh, movement for legalization of the, Greek Catholic church was in Western Ukraine. So two things were putting people on the streets in the late eighties, and the government was actually believed that probably they're not in a position to, to clash the, those and, and go after those manifestations. The Greek Catholic church and the, the, the first mass rally. Really mass rally in, in, in Louis seems to me is about, it is about Greek Catholic church. The first mass rally in cave, it's 10,000 people. The, the, the rally in, in downtown cave, it's about Chernobyl and ecology. So it's, uh, two, two movements outta, which really the Ukrainian state was born. And, uh, Ukraine, uh, is one of the places that suffered the most. but proportionally speaking, it's not the main victim of Chernobyl. Proportionally speaking, Belarus is the main victim of Chernobyl in terms of the territory covered and, and, and so on and so forth. But in Belarusian never saw that sort of mobilization. So in that sense, the, the, the, the idea that, Environment, not just matters, but you actually have to go out there and to defend. It almost became a cultural DNA of this new Ukrainian state and new Ukrainian nation, uh, to a degree as, as, as a pluralism of, of religion became certainly also one of this, one of this, uh, key moments in, in the birth of the new o of the new nation. so, I, I'm, I'm speaking here as a historian, avoid in talking about 2022 and 2025 and in refuge in, in safer place, like 86, 87, and 89. Uh, but I, I think that that's, that's what, w what certainly was certainly a factor there. And, um, uh, another, another thing that I, I. Found interesting about Chernobyl itself. There is a particular code of ethics associated with the heroes of Chernobyl of 1986. It's about sec, it's about self-sacrifice. uh, the entrance to the, to the headquarters. There is a monument to, uh, the first person who died from the Chernobyl explosion, not as an explosion, but from radiation poisoning. his name was, first name now escapes me. Uh, uh, last name was Shanko. This is the guy who was there during the first night, got a lot of radiation. They put him in the hospital, but his shift, his crew was there. So he escaped from the hospital. He joined his guys. Got additional radiation level he was the first to die from. And, and there is a monument to him. And I, uh, write in my book that when the Russian officers were marching into the building and passing this, this monument, they didn't know whom that monument was to, and they didn't know what to, what was waiting for them behind those doors. so the, the, the, the, that, that, uh, example that, that, that, that, that spirit of what, how, how important is to protect the world from the, from the nuclear, from the radiation, from the nuclear energy. It's almost, uh, almost part of who those people are. How, how they imagined who they were, I think.

4 1:06:39

Otherwise very merciful man. Clemence yes is not such a man when it comes to time timing. So thank you so much and I would like to you to join, uh, with applause to Professor. Thank,

3 1:06:59

thank you.

1 1:07:03

Thank you so much, Thara, professor Bloke. At least the weather is Clement and Mild. How will our lives continue for the speakers? We will have our speakers dinner in the private dining room of the Maurice in, so this is speakers and those who shared panels. It's a bit awkward since this is the two tier approach at this point at the conference. Thank you for your understanding. At 8:00 PM for all. We have a lovingly planned and prepared cultured evening, a night of Ukrainian poetry and music. It'll take place at a d Parlo Performing Arts Center at the south end of campus. You remember from yesterday, south is walking away from the Golden Dome, the load star. Just follow the crowd. I have reasons to hope and believe that it will be a spectacular evening. The evening will be moderated by my wonderful colleague Melanie Webb. Thank you, Mel. Where she there is Mel. She's getting ready. Okay, this is good. So we are already thinking about the future. tomorrow we'll have yet again. Holy mass. At eight o'clock in the Holy Cross, chaplain Stinton Remic Hall, the building next door south at 9:00 AM we'll gather for our fourth plenary session. Jail by the wonderful Doctor SW Lana Raymer. Thank you so much. Enjoy the evening, and I hope to see you all at eight o'clock in Parlo. Maybe you could be there at 7 45, 7 50 because I think at eight o'clock they really start. Thank you so much again.

1:08:49

Thank.