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Indigenous Voices, Part 6: PhotoFutures

November 12, 2025 • Think ND

0:00 | 42:51

Episode Topic: PhotoFutures

Hear artist Sarah Sense discuss her powerful photo weaving Hinushi 10, recently added to the permanent collection of the Raclin Murphy Museum of Art through the PhotoFutures initiative. Learn how her work, rooted in the Choctaw and Chitimacha traditions, interweaves historical maps and personal landscapes to document Indigenous futures and foster a continuity of culture and family.

Featured Speakers:

Tara Kenjockety, University of Notre Dame
Sarah Sense, artist

Read this episode's recap over on the University of Notre Dame's open online learning community platform, ThinkND: https://go.nd.edu/05c38d.

This podcast is a part of the ThinkND Series titled Indigenous Voices.

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Introduction to Indigenous Voices

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 0:06

Thank you for joining us for Indigenous Voices, a Think ND series where you can engage with a legacy of diverse Native American cultures and celebrate the art and self-expression of indigenous artists who enrich our lives through dance, music, song fashion, and the decorative and visual arts. Tara Kendi, the undergraduate community Engagement in Anthropology librarian at the Hesberg Libraries here at the University of Notre Dame. I am an enrolled member of the HoChunk Nation and impart Seneca Nation. I'm also active member of the Notre Dame's Native American Initiatives. offer support to our Native American Student Association of Notre Dame and also actively participate in the indigenous staff and faculty group. The Lin Murphy Museum of Art acknowledges our presence on traditional land of the Pomy peoples, the Miami Peoples, and many people from other indigenous nations that now call this land home. As an initial step towards reconciliation and out of a desire for a brighter and more equitable future, the museum is committed to amplifying indigenous voices and building conversation and collaboration through the hosting and support of indigenous artists, art forms, and communities. At this time, I wanna thank all of the co-sponsors of Indigenous Voices, the Rly Murphy Museum of Art. The Crock Institute for International Peace Studies, Notre Dame Initiative on Race and Resilience, the Native American initiatives at the College of Arts and Letters, Native American alumni and the Notre Dame Alumni Association. And now I'd like to welcome Sarah Sense, an artist from Sacramento, California. received her BA from California State University, Chico in 2003, and her MFA from Parsons, the New School for Design in New York in 2005. addition to her curatorial and directorial work, she has been practicing photo weaving with traditional basket techniques from her Chi Matcha and Choctaw family since 2004, it is this practice that is the hallmark of her work. He knew she 10, which was acquired by the Lin Murphy Museum of Art for its permanent collection earlier this year, and which we'll be discussing today. Welcome, Sarah.

sarah_1_10-22-2025_114228 2:45

Thank you. I'm very happy to be a part of that collection and to be here speaking with you today. Thanks for having me.

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 2:53

Thank you for coming. photo Futures is a collaborative collecting group at the Rly Murphy Museum of Art that acquires contemporary photography for the University of Notre Dame. Designed for students of any major. This seven session co-curricular program combines issues related to museum collecting, contemporary photography, and socially engaged artistic practice. Students critique. Individual photographs and evaluate artists' portfolios and also engage in critical discussions with curators and select staff. students develop their own collecting criteria to recommend a photograph for acquisition that adds value to the permanent collection of the Lin Murphy Museum and supports the mission of the university. The theme for fall 2024 was indigenizing photography, and the piece chosen by the group was your artwork, HEI 10. was honored to attend one of the sessions to assist with the discussion from an anthropological librarian standpoint, offering some research context for the indigenizing photography theme. How did you come to know your piece was being considered for acquisition, and how did you feel about the context for that?

sarah_1_10-22-2025_114228 4:18

I think that I got an email early on, saying that I was a part of this process with a group of students, and I was very, you know, honored and, not even. Not so much like hopeful, but just the fact that I was being considered and that the students and the faculty that were working with the students had selected me to be, a part of the discussion along with these other artists who I admire. So, when it was chosen and the letter was shared with me, I was, you know, obviously quite. Quite excited about it, and I just appreciate being a part of that conversation. And also a part of the collection there at the Rockland Museum.

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 5:12

That's great. So 10 isn't necessarily what we might think of when we think of the word photograph. Can you tell us a little bit about this work and how you approached it?

Exploring Historical Maps and Their Significance

sarah_1_10-22-2025_114228 5:26

So when I was, first approached by the Choctaw Nation, and I think it was initially in 2023, to work with, A couple of women there, Shauna Williams and Claire Green. both Choctaw who were one was working as, Claire was working as a, curator at the Choctaw Cultural Center, and Shauna was working on, the art for renovation of a hotel at the Choctaw Nation in Durant. And, It was like, ironically, both of them had contacted me about the same time. It was like within a 24 hour time period. And they both, wanted me to be involved in the hotel and the museum, and they didn't know that they had been in touch with me at the same time. And so I think it didn't, you know. Pretty quickly we put it together that there was an opportunity there for me to do a larger body of work that would be a part of the cultural center and also a part of the hotel. So obviously both have very different, pur The purpose is different of a hotel, right. And the purpose of a cultural center museum. Is different, right? But I think that when I was looking at what I could make for those two spaces, there was no reason why it would be anything different. because the audiences, while they may be different and going into that space for different reasons, the information could be relevant for both. If that makes sense. So if somebody is walking into a hotel and can be stopped by art and, you know, pause to be able to consider an idea or a thought or a political statement, perhaps being caught off guard in some way, that can be impactful in the same way that somebody may be going into an institution or a museum to specifically look for information to be, you know, to. be, impacted by art, to be impacted by a story or by writing, by, you know. By curatorial objectives. And so, with those two different types of audiences and those two different purposes, I asked to look at some maps that would be at the, you know, at the cultural center archive. And when I went there, It wasn't that much later, just a few weeks later.'cause I was going to be in New York and I was able to go back through Oklahoma on my way home from New York. And so I went to Durant, visited the cultural center and the hotel space, and also the archive and the maps that they had pulled for me were blue. Allotment maps, kind of like architectural, like lands maps. And there was about just over 40 of these maps, and they were probably like two feet by two and a half feet tall, and each map had a grid on it. And I believe that if you took all the maps and put them together, you would be able to see. The larger space of what is MCC County. So McCarton County includes Bro Bow, which is where my grandmother grew up, and where my Choctaw family was relocated to after the Trail of Tears. So this felt you know, first being given the opportunity to make the work for these two spaces. Then being shown these maps that directly related to my ancestry and to this story of removal and the story of allotment and the story of the Choctaw Nation, right away was just so gripping. And, for me, you know, it really took a hold of. Emotionally and mentally took a hold of all these different spaces in me, and I really thought about it very deeply and considered what the maps meant. The first thing I did is I photographed all of the maps there with the curator and the archivist. And then, with that, we, you know, went to council to get permission for me to work with the maps. So initially these pieces were, four very large pieces, 40 inches by 80 inches, and I wove through it landscapes from where my grandma grew up and where we still have family living. So in bro Kimbo and then, lands the landscapes from, I always kind of put in like landscapes of where I'm from, just to kind of like root down like place of where the work is being made. And then there was also, photographs of the journals of the Lewis and Clark exhibition. So I got to see the original, one of the original journals that was like hand-drawn maps, you know, handwritten notes from the Lewis and Clark Expedition. And again, I was able to photograph those maps. That was at the, historical society in St. Louis, in Missouri. So these four pieces had those maps from Lewis and Clark, which to me were really significant with the understanding of land, the understanding of how to colonize the land, where are the rivers, where are the, you know, where are people living, where are the mountains? So basically Taking all of this information and then bringing it back to the president, bringing it back to government so that there's an opportunity to then manipulate space, manipulate land, take land. and I thought that was a, like an important part of the story of allotment and of the story of removal. So those first four pieces, three went into that hotel space, and then one went to the cultural center. that summer I was back at the British Library in London, where I had been extending a fellowship, and. I found some oil maps of that same area, so the oil maps, so the allotment maps are from 1902, and then I found this one oil map that was from, I wanna say like 1915, but it was in five different languages and so. This oil map of Oklahoma was accessible to people. It was in Russian, Spanish, French, English, and I can't remember. I'd have to like reference the map and I can do that for you guys. But the, so imagine all these different languages.

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 12:41

Yeah.

The Impact of Edward S. Curtis

sarah_1_10-22-2025_114228 12:42

Telling people, you know, obviously I don't know the terminology for people who are in the business of oil, but the maps showed where oil might be in Oklahoma, and this is just, you know, a decade or less. Around a decade after allotment. So I think if we go back to that era, like a little over a hundred years ago, you lose your land, you know? And our ancestors lost their land. They're removed. They're then given new land, they're given an allotment number. Their name is recorded. how native they are is recorded as like half breed, full breed. so there's all of this sort of cataloging of people and then there's also The concept of land ownership, and that's what allotment land essentially was. Now with that understanding of oil being present there and all of a sudden the land has a new type of value. So with a whole community of native people who've just been displaced, being shown value of land, and trying to be convinced to like. Be custodians of this new land. But then on the side, there's now other, agendas with the land because now there's more value than what was initially recognized. So after I finished those four maps, those four weavings, and I found that map at the British library, I wanted to do more. I wanted to include. The expedition of Lewis and Clark, the allotment maps, the landscape of broken bow, and then the oil maps because it was one extra layer to the story. And I, you know, I think for me, because I had the permission and I had the story, it took me a while to feel okay with that. I'm very careful about, you know, working with imagery and how it comes to me and what it means. And so, I think a couple months later I made four pieces that were four feet by four feet. Just about, I think there were like 46 inches by 46 inches. And, they had those maps in them and the work was first shown in Paris, France. And so I also did maps of the area that were created by France. So when. France was, you know, as you know, you're a librarian. A lot of these maps from the 17 hundreds are in, French maps and British maps and Spanish maps, and there's so much land claim, right? And so. I did include some French maps that were of, mostly, a lot of these that I'm looking at are of the Mississippi River for obvious reasons. Like this is such a huge river, a huge force of water that goes right through North America. And So, yeah, so that was it. So I think there was just a lot to look at and think about with those four pieces. And then after I made those works, I had been asked by Arizona State University to make new work that related to, Edward S. Curtis. So while a fellow at the British Library, they had all the Edward S. Curtis, Prince, and, I didn't know. because I was there for so many weeks, living in London and spending time in the library, I rephotographed each one. I've never done anything with them except look at them and physically hold each one and photograph each one. it a few days. when a SU asked me to do something new for this exhibition about, Edward S. Curtis, and I think they asked six native artists. director of the museum really wanted us to incorporate the Edward S. Curtis photography, and I didn't speak to any of the other artists, but I thought initially okay, I could work with those, you know, that imagery, but I couldn't find the connecting story. And so what I decided to do instead was. Think about what photography is today, what like photographing native people means today. And so I did photos of my oldest son Archie at Bro Bow, and you know, on Bro Bow Lake, but also on our family land where my grandma grew up. and I included a selfie of us as well because I was like, well. What's like the biggest change in you know? Photography in the last 175, almost 200 years. it's selfies, I think like selfies, Instagram, like the accessibility of the camera. So, that was important to me that I had, you know, incorporated that. And so, I did six pieces. A lot of'em are just Archie, like in that landscape. There is one that's a selfie of he and I, which will be a gift to him one day. You know, that's in, I have it back in my studio now, and that's really like about us and for him, and very personal. And the other ones are, They're just about bringing my son back home, you know, to that land. Whether we're going back to Chi Matcha in Louisiana or back to Choctaw in Oklahoma, all of it is relevant and all of it is important. And so these pieces really act as a documentation of that in the same way that Edward S. Curtis was, you know. I'm using my quote fingers now, like documenting, you know, and his purpose of documenting is totally different.'cause if his is the dying Indian, again, my quote fingers are up. If somebody's just listening to this, then my document was indigenous futures, the future of our kits, the future of our Land's, connectivity and continuation of, culture and family and community.

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 19:07

And what a way to do the opposite of what he did. And put the camera in somebody else's hands

sarah_1_10-22-2025_114228 19:13

Yeah.

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 19:14

in your son's hands as well.

sarah_1_10-22-2025_114228 19:16

And I think that's a really good point. He did also take my camera and he was also taking photos, so he was very much like an active part of the photo process. But see, I feel like that's very much a part of my, As a mother, you know, as a weaver when I get to go back to Oklahoma or to Louisiana, I always wanna spend time, learning as much as I can because I don't live there and so I need to take, you know, that's part of being. A mother to these kids, these three boys is continuing to take them back there, exposing them to the weaving and teaching them the weaving too, but also teaching them like, you know, this is a part of. Who you are. And just because we don't live on the reservation right now, there's no reason why we can't be a part of the community. And that's a real challenge because, life is very busy. So taking the time to teach your children to weave or to learn how to take photos. Or to engage in community, to meet your elders, to spend time with your family. All of that is, to me, a part of my mothering.

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 20:39

Yeah. So how does this piece fit into the greater body of your work as well since then, and maybe before?

sarah_1_10-22-2025_114228 20:50

Well, I think that story. I just told of being shown those allotment maps and then that story continuing with, the photography of Broken Bow and then the photographs in St. Louis and it sort of built up to these smaller works. And I think for me, having this one piece that was originally made for a SU. To then come to Notre Dame. And, there's one more twist to this story is that Archie was born in Ireland. when I was traveling I did a project called Weaving the Americas and I traveled through. North, central and South America and lived in Central and South America for almost three years. from there I went to Southeast Asia, was there for about half a year, and then I had a show, in Chile, then I had a show in England and I went to England. while I was living around the world. I met my husband in England and we moved to Ireland together where our first son was born. that's Archie, the boy in the photo. because he's our eldest, he, definitely has traveled with me the most. I'm close to all of my boys. He is, very easy to travel with, so, and he loves it. and, he is very proud of all of his heritage. You know, he's very proud of being Chito Matcha and Choctaw and, I think he's proud of being British. He doesn't talk about that as much, but he's very proud to be Irish. And I think it's'cause it's such a unique situation like being born in Ireland to a British parent. He then has that right to Irish citizenship, which we made sure we secured for him. So just so he has all of this, just, it's like more freedom in a way. For me, that piece, and I didn't realize it until I was back there. I think it was March last year and I'm not sure when I was there winter sometime. and seeing the piece there and seeing how Irish that. University is like how Irish Notre Dame is. It just felt so fitting to see Archie hanging in the museum and he has like the, you know, the Choctaw Sun and Star pattern woven through him. On Broken Bow and just standing there, being present in that space, looking out into the water, but then like hanging in a museum where there's all this Irish pride and I was just, I don't know, the whole thing feels so meaningful to me. And it's pretty ironic, I guess. And also maybe it's just meant to be that way.

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 23:46

Yeah, I think that it's just amazing how you found such, uh, amazing stories and history within maps, you know, just how that kind of just developed for you so organically and then was woven together with these just common, histories and different perspectives pulled together and to the modern day. I mean, I'm just. it's a really amazing, lack of a better word, because I know that we're talking about weaving, how it's just interwoven all of these stories within the piece.

sarah_1_10-22-2025_114228 24:18

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Navigating Challenges and Finding Inspiration

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 24:20

So your work is currently on view through December, 2025 at the Zimmerli Art Museum at Rutgers. As a part of the show, indigenous identities here now always. How is the community of indigenous artists living and working right now? Coming together to meet the moment we find ourselves in. And what does it mean to you to be a part of that community?

sarah_1_10-22-2025_114228 24:46

I think it really hit me, And, you know, during that lockdown period when museums were closing and all of, there was, you know, there was so much change and we weren't sure how things were gonna change. and I know I can speak to, I would assume everybody, because we all experience this really, you know, difficult time and, For me, we had just moved from England back to the United States, like two months before lockdown. Two, three months before it all happened and we, you know, COVID hadn't happened yet. It was November, so everything hadn't happened. So we were already going through this big transition and then there was lockdown and then all my contracts were canceled, right? So like anything that was going on in England or Europe or here gone. And I honestly, I thought that's. This is it's done. And it made me very sad. And there was one particular project, like a huge research project that I was working on with the British Library. And, I haven't seen it, you know, I, I haven't really done. it to it, completely. I've done parts of it in a way. but that was just gone. It was just, you know, and I remember being really sad, you know, and then Florida State University asked me to do something and they even said, we have to spend this money. And at the time, you know. As an artist, like I was totally broke. Three kids like, and they were like, we wanna give you this money to make this work. And I bought a printer and I used an old computer and I got all the supplies I needed. You know, anything. I basically refilled my studio. My husband built my studio, which we're in right now, and, I was like, okay, I can do this. And I had a very young baby, and I guess he must have been before he had turned one because I think it was the year 2001, so he was going to turn one, but it was just, it was like a time where. Uh, you know, like he put his co right next to my studio and I would rock him and nurse him to sleep. And then I'd go back in the studio and I could listen for him. But he was there with me through this whole process of making these pieces and, and they never felt finished to me. And I don't know why, but they were, they're huge. They're actually right. These are them right here. And people get really curious about them. And I'm always like, they're so big you can't frame'em. And then as soon as I tell'em the size, they forget about it. they're for the future. These are for the future. But they got shipped to Florida. Florida framed them. And then they had to take him outta the frame.'cause then the shipping was too much with the framings. They sent him back. But the reason why I'm telling this story is because that for me was me like showing myself, like even though we went through having a third baby, an international move, lockdown being totally broke, like we went through all this stuff, I was so determined to keep making the art that I believed in. doing what I do because it's who I am. and then I remember being in, it must have been in St. Louis and I was invited to come out to be on a panel and I walked into a room of paintings and I saw a Deani Whitehawk next to, I can't remember who else what other paintings were in the room. But it was like the typical, you know. People you would see in the contemporary or modern painting rooms. And I was like, oh yes. Like I just felt so proud and at that moment I was like, I'm so glad I didn't stop, because here we are, we're finally getting our recognition. The fact that I was even there to sit on a panel with other women. To talk about my work and then to see native artists in that space, but not just native artists in native exhibitions where it's categorized but mixed in with this is contemporary. This is American contemporary painting, you know? And

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 29:23

Yeah.

sarah_1_10-22-2025_114228 29:23

that means something because that's the way the art history books. Should be written. And, and that's a huge, that's the, for me, that's the biggest shift in transition from that, you know, that lockdown period and that, I am. I'm just, I'm like grateful to myself in a way, but more than that, I look at this community that I've been a part of for 20 years and I am like, I'm just blown away by friends, colleagues, people I haven't even met yet. Like I can't even keep up. Like I'm trying to constantly read. See show, there's like a show here at the Crocker. There's a show at the De Young. I have my list. I'm like trying to get away to see, you know, all these superstars. It's it's incredible. It's so exciting. it's exciting. Even though we are in such a, like for me, this is such an unpredictable, like scary time and so again, I'm glad we're not giving up and we have to just keep, we have to just keep going and keep fighting for what we believe in.

Current Projects and Future Directions

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 30:35

That's a really positive message, and I can't wait to share this podcast with my own daughter who, studied fine arts and she's a sculptor, and just, I liked her to hear some of these inspiring tales of people not giving up. You know, even when you're faced with challenges like the lockdown and other things, it's just incredible. So in their letter recommending Hanush 10 for acquisition, the student group wrote Census piece articulates how cultural practices evolve and are not a figment of the past, but instead a means of advancing modern ideas and identity. Can you share with us what you are working on now and where is your art headed next?

sarah_1_10-22-2025_114228 31:22

So, that's a really good question and I think my most like honest answer, is that I am looking to be like quite political and. In a respectful, accessible way. and it has taken me a long time to figure out how to do that. And I have there's a lot of reasons for that. there's, and I'm not gonna discuss all of it right now, but, There's, I think that when you're making something and it is going to be hung, you know, in a gallery or a museum, you're really, and you're putting your name on it. there's a, it's very, it can be very loaded. And what I never want to happen with what I make is for anybody to be like. To pass by or to not feel engaged. And one thing that I think is really important and what I admire in other artists and what I try to achieve in my art is just like layers and being, you know, that first, that first layer layer for me. Is something that is hopefully like it can be beautiful or it can be evocative. something that pulls you in. And then once you're there, there's another layer to that story. And if you have the time to look at it or read about it, then you can access that. And then it goes deeper and deeper. And I think that the reason why I'm particularly interested in doing that with my work is because. I want to be accessible to a whole host of people. I don't want to only be interesting to look at to this age group or this community. I want it to be bigger than that. I've lived in a lot of different places. You know, I've lived in different countries, I've spent time with kids, I've spent time with elders. Like I have very, kind of, I feel I am kind of diverse already and I think that's my reason for that. So as much as I wanna take all of my frustration and my anger and my just like disappointment and things that are happening, I have made a very careful decision for myself and for my art to go slow because I am an emotional person and my instinct is to be like, boom, really quick and really fast and really hard, and I've learned. Over the years, I'm now 45, that's not the way to always get through. So, my Instagram is present, but I've actually stopped posting because what I want to post is probably something that would make me like, uh, it could be alienating, if that makes sense. So I'm just, I'm slowing down in a way. and being careful and Thinking about how I can present these layers so that it goes deeper and deeper, that's the more effective way for me to reach people. Now I've said that and that makes me, sounds like I'm like doing something really important but I'm just a part of this larger community, but I wanna be careful about it. So I have a few, Things that I wanna work on specifically. So what I've started on is land and national parks. this summer I gave a talk as a visiting artist, at a symposium at the, antiquarian Society. In Worcester. the library there has, books of land deeds. historical documents where I was able to find land deeds of Avery Island, which is ancestral camacho, homelands, land deeds of Choctaw land that was taken. They also have historical photography. Monica Bravo, a photo historian at Princeton University, pulls these wonderful images out and I got to photograph them and work with them. this new work that I have just finished, I am gonna give her all the credit she deserves because I didn't even know these photos existed. one of them is of, painting and he's surrounded by native men and that whole concept of, painting Yosemite and these really big. Landscapes without anybody in it. And what does that mean? You know, there's an agenda there and it's more than just beauty. It's a land grab and that photo, so I've just done a body of work that has six pieces. Ideally, the whole thing would hang as one piece, and I've repeated that image I think four times in the piece in different ways just to really be clear, this happened. this is how he was painting. He was surrounded by the men that he was erasing. He was surrounded by the native culture that he was erasing. The presence was there, you know? And then this summer I also went to, Some of the national parks here in California. We have, six or seven, I don't remember, maybe nine. I can't remember. I think it's seven.

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 36:45

sarah_1_10-22-2025_114228 36:45

I took my boys and went with my mom too. My mom also came and my dad and, so did some photography and then mixed those photographs of the parks with the historical park photos. Some maps, from the antiquarian and land deeds. So again, you know, looking at where you know, who owns this land, what does that mean to own it? What is the purpose of a national park? What was the purpose and what is current purpose and what are, what's the future of it and why not give it back? Why not give it back to the original people who were always meant to be, the custodians, the stewards, the protectors of the land. So that's my first political agenda. that's what I'm working on right now. And for this particular work for the first time, I included river Cane that I have. back in Louisiana that I cut, harvested,

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 37:58

Why.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

sarah_1_10-22-2025_114228 37:58

dyed, split, peeled, did the whole thing. And, I tied the reed into the weaving. So, again, for me, that was like my way. rather than weaving a basket, I was weaving the photos, but then I tied the reeds into the weaving to then pull, root it back down again to the land.

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 38:19

Oh, I love that. Well, thank you Sarah for sharing your work with us, and thank you to our audience for tuning in. You can find more information about Sarah and her work at Sarah Sense. Dot com. That's S-A-R-A-H-S-E-N-S-E. you'd like to explore more from indigenous voices and check out any of the 95 plus series on ThinkND, visit us at Think. nd.edu. Please feel free to tell your friends. ThinkND is open to all. Until next time, inspire your mind and spark conversations.

sarah_1_10-22-2025_114228 39:09

Oh, did I talk too much?

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 39:15

gosh.

sarah_1_10-22-2025_114228 39:15

I talk so much. you can edit

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 39:17

that

sarah_1_10-22-2025_114228 39:18

or whatever.

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 39:19

Oh, that was beautiful.

sarah_1_10-22-2025_114228 39:29

Oh good. I'm surprised I was able to talk that much. That's good.

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 39:34

No, that

sarah_1_10-22-2025_114228 39:34

Okay.

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 39:35

too.

sarah_1_10-22-2025_114228 39:35

Oh, thank you.

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 39:36

You are amazing. I loved it and I'm so excited for my daughter to

sarah_1_10-22-2025_114228 39:40

Oh.

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 39:40

She's 26 she had gone to school for fine arts and everything, and she's done some graphic design as well, but I think she's just kind of hit walls, you know, and kind of been frustrated

sarah_1_10-22-2025_114228 39:51

I call'em the brick walls and you just run right into'em. I know my kids are so young still, I'm like just trying to help them with, training them to do homework. You know, I'm at that stage, but That's hard. That's really hard when they're adults and they're like trying to figure it out. And especially like following a passionate career where you're not driven by money. And that's unique in the worlds that we live in because everybody's thinking about, and we're trained to pay bills. you know, and you have to do that too. and that's the thing with art, and I remember one of my professors at Parsons saying this, she's like, the art students are the hardest working students, you know? And I don't know if that's necessarily true, but I understand what she was saying. it's not easy in that stigma that it's like. You know, you're just making, and you're just creative. It's not, there's so much more to it. And, you know, working in museums helps. Being an assistant to an artist is helpful. I was an assistant to a museum director. I ran a gallery in New York. you can teach there. You do all these other jobs and they're all learning. You learn and learn. Even now, like it was hard for me to make art. When I was running a gallery or working for Annie Philbin, or, you know, it's hard to make art. let me tell you, it's hard to make art when you have three kids. it's always hard,

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 41:32

Yeah.

sarah_1_10-22-2025_114228 41:32

you know, like it's always hard. And then when you get to that point where it's oh, I can, if you get to a point where you can pay your bills with your art. You marry rich and you don't have to. and you don't have to work and do the extra jobs, or maybe you find that, oh, actually, I just working in museums. I like meeting the artists. I like writing about the art. I like critiquing the art. There's so many different things. Like my favorite curators, the most impactful curators in my life. they were all artists first.

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 42:13

Yeah.

sarah_1_10-22-2025_114228 42:13

it takes a lot to learn how to talk about art and how to write about art. You're not born with it, you know, like.

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 42:23

For,

sarah_1_10-22-2025_114228 42:24

You can be born able to make art, but like understanding the history and the critique and the theory and the methodologies, like that's learned and it takes time. So she just makes sure she gets jobs where she's like, and the arts and learning and earning. And then make, learn, earn.

tara-kenjockety_1_10-22-2025_144228 42:48

Love that.