Inspired Conversations, Part 1: Muffet McGraw and Ruth Riley Hunter '01, '16 EMBA

Episode Topic: Muffet McGraw and Ruth Riley Hunter '01, '16 EMBA

ND Women Connect is thrilled to present a conversation between Notre Dame legends Muffet McGraw, Hall of Fame and former Notre Dame women’s basketball coach, analyst, and advocate for social justice, women’s equality, and hunger relief, and her former player Ruth Riley Hunter ’01, ’16 EMBA, NCAA and WNBA champion, Olympian, executive, mother, and humanitarian. Join as these inspiring women reflect on leadership, faith, service, and women in sports.

Featured Speakers: 

• Muffet McGraw, University of Notre Dame
• Ruth Riley Hunter '01, '16 EMBA, Miami HEAT

Read this episode's recap over on the University of Notre Dame's open online learning community platform, ThinkND: https://go.nd.edu/d2e560.

This podcast is a part of the ThinkND Series titled Inspired Conversations.

Thanks for listening! The ThinkND Podcast is brought to you by ThinkND, the University of Notre Dame's online learning community. We connect you with videos, podcasts, articles, courses, and other resources to inspire minds and spark conversations on topics that matter to you — everything from faith and politics, to science, technology, and your career.

• Learn more about ThinkND and register for upcoming live events at think.nd.edu.
• Join our LinkedIn community for updates, episode clips, and more.

Transcript

Welcome and Introduction

Jennifer 0:06

Good evening and thank you for joining our seventh annual Inspired Conversations event. My name is Jennifer Powells, chair of Notre Dame. Women Connect, and we are so excited to welcome all of you tonight. For those of you joining us for the first time, inspire Conversations is a national engagement initiative engage led by Notre Dame. Women Connect. Its purpose is to foster dialogue with female leaders in the Notre Dame family on timely topics that help support, discussion and connection with our alumni and friends. And starting this year, we are excited to partner with our friends at ThinkND to help elevate this conversation. We would like the audience to be a part of the conversation too. Please use the online chat to submit questions, and we will leave time at the end to answer as many questions as possible before we introduce our speakers. It's customary that we start off with a prayer. In the name of the Father, son, holy Spirit, loving and merciful God, we give thanks and ask for your abundant blessing upon us. Your servants who desire to serve with generous and humble hearts. We are grateful for all you have given to us, for our families, friends, colleagues, mentors, and for all who inspire us to live the gospel values. May we never take for granted the abundance we have, nor stop working to ensure the same for those who go without, we ask this through Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Tonight I am honored to introduce two Notre Dame Legends for 33 seasons, which included two national championships. M McGraw patrolled the sidelines as the women's basketball head coach, a four-time National Coach of the year winner and seven time conference coach of the year. Her legendary career included an impressive 936 career wins, which has her ranked six all time among division one coaches and only one of, and one of only five NCAA division one coaches in history with more than 930 wins. Coach McGraw was the 13th female coach inducted into the Naysmith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame. She continues to be active in the South Bend community is teaching in the Mendoza College of Business. Is starting her fifth season working for the A CC network as a basketball analyst. Welcome Moffitt.

Muffet 2:50

Thank you so much. It's always a pleasure to share the stage with the one and only Ruth Riley.

Jennifer 2:56

Yes. Joining Coach McGraw tonight is her former player and good friend Ruth Re. Hunter Ruth was the captain of the Notre Dame 2001 NCAA National Championship team. She went on to win two WNBA titles and an Olympic gold medal becoming the first woman named MVP of both the NCAA Final Four and the WNBA finals. Ruth now serves as senior director of team development for the Miami Heat and was inducted into the Women's Basketball Hall of Fame in thousand 19. Ruth advocates for Global Health and Child Hunger through N-B-A-W-N-B-A Cares. The UN Foundation's nothing but nets and no kid hungry. Welcome, Ruth.

Ruth 3:44

Thank you. I love every conversation with Coach. And now we gonna have another one with all of you

Jennifer 3:51

tonight, muffin and Ruth will be discussing questions from the Notre Dame family in a fireside chat format, and we are so excited to highlight them both on this platform. With that, I'll turn the stage over to Moffitt.

Muffet 4:05

I'm gonna start out with some easy ones for you, Ruth, and then we would love to hear from all of you. So just start writing those questions in the chat. But Ruth, tell me your favorite memory from your time at Notre Dame.

Ruth 4:15

this one's easy. I think it's hard to top winning a national championship and, I think just especially the way that game went down to the end and the celebration afterwards with everyone knowing, you know, what it took to get there and. You think as an athlete of the goal's always to win, but you never imagine what it's actually gonna feel like. And it's hard to put into words afterwards, you know, what that meant. And so, um, to be able to walk off the stage, my last game wearing a Notre Dame jersey and winning, you know, was, was really just remarkable.

Muffet 4:51

And certainly to be the one who hit the two winning free throws that made it a little more special. And I am, uh, of the same mind that championship, the first was awesome, but my favorite memory is coming back to campus. That night I remember we left St. Louis. We were a little disappointed. We left all our family and friends behind to fly home. And as we got that police escort through South Bend, because, you know, at two o'clock in the morning, the traffic was ridiculous. And they let us right up Notre Dame Avenue and we got off the bus and there were thousands of people there to welcome us back. And it was the most amazing moment. Uh, I think I get chills thinking about it now. I will never forget that. And then of course, leaving campus and seeing the number one sign lit up on Grace Hall, what an amazing night that was. So we're about to celebrate 25 years from that championship. And when you look back at, you obviously were the leader of that team, the National Player of the year, and maybe even more important that national student athlete of the year, MVP of the Final Four. You, you did it all for us. Yet you remain so incredibly humble. But what do you think it was about that team that made it so special?

Ruth 5:59

I would say a few things. Uh, I mean, having talent matters as we know. and so I think having complimentary talent, we had like a good mix of, of what it, what you needed to compete for a championship. Um, but that doesn't mean we were gonna win as we felt the, the year before, but. Um, I also felt like me personally, there was a sense of urgency because the window was closing. There was one year left. I had my senior year. I was disappointed, uh, in the way we finished my junior year and feeling like we had a shot and didn't get as far as we could have. And so I personally challenged myself to, to be a more vocal and a leader, and I think that helped, uh, our team dynamic a little bit to stretch my comfort zones for sure. Um, and, and I think also you have to maximize collective potential for what the moment required. And when you think back of what individuals did in order, especially in those final games, everyone stepped up in a different way. Um, everyone, you know, played their part and I think that really helped. What about

Muffet 7:04

you? You're still right, still right? About those complimentary pieces. Everybody had a role to play. Everybody knew their job. Everybody did their job. and I remember meeting the year before, after that disappointing season, and your voice in that, in that locker room, I think changed the course of the next season. So I would say your leadership and as well as Neil Ivy, our amazing coach, uh, at the moment, and she is somebody that, you know, was a very different type of leader, but between the two of you, you really did everything you needed to do to get the team, to go. And as everybody knows, having a, a great culture, having honesty, trust, accountability, you know, everything is based on trust. I think the players trusted each other. We trusted you, you trusted us. And so when you trust people, you can be honest, you can give them feedback. And I know I gave you a lot of feedback over the years, and you were able to take it because you knew it was coming from a place where I wanted you to be great. And everybody cared about each other. We were aligned in our goals, and everybody wanted the same thing. And that was, I think, the key to success for that team.

Ruth 8:08

As we're talking about winning a championship in the realm of, of college women's basketball, you've lived in a space and you've seen that space evolve so much throughout your career. And while there's a lot of talk, I think for women, a lot of women in probably who are logged in right now who are fighting being a woman in maybe a space, it's more male-dominant. but that was unique for you because like sports was male-dominant and you were this part of women's sports that really elevated the entire platform. But I'd love to hear that your experience and just how that shaped the way you communicate and you lead and your views now on, on where we're at.

Muffet 8:46

You know, I think it's funny because when I talk to women, they always start with, you know, I work in a male dominated business, I work in a male dominated industry. And actually, as we all know, we all do. We're all in an, an industry that is dominated by men. Leadership across the board is dominated by men. You know, back in 1972 when Title IX came out, 90% of coaches of all women's teams were women. And as we got a little bit more equity, we got a little bit more money. Salary started to get better. The men started pouring into our game. They couldn't make it on the men's side. They thought, let me jump in here and uh, and I'll, I'll see what I can do on the women's side. And I think the issue for us is that women, sometimes we just sit back and we expect that people are gonna look at us and think, wow, she's doing a really good job and I'm gonna promote her.'cause she's doing such a good job. And I've read an interesting article in the Harvard Business Journal, and it was entitled, why Do We Promote Incompetent Men? And I thought, wow, this is gonna be good. So the answer is because men win the interview, women have the skills, but men go in with their hubris, their confidence, their arrogance, and they go in and they say, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna win a national championship. I can take you where you've never been before. As women, we are just collaborators. We're team players. We talk with, we, you know, here's what we did at, at my last job. Here's what I think we can do. Here's what I think with the team and, and everybody collaborating. And so we're not getting the job because they're going to, to the guy that's, that's selling himself. And I think we need to do better in the interview. I think we need to sell ourselves a little bit more. We need to, to show our confidence, a little bit more. We need to get out there and get in the game. You know, when you look at these little kids, five and six year olds go out and play soccer. Theo's gonna be out there soon. And you look on the silent, it's always somebody's dad. you ask, um, I think there was a study, they asked a bunch of like fourth graders, draw a picture of a leader. Well, they all drew men because that's what they see. They see men on the sidelines. They see men coaching. You know, I've, I've been able to, at least I run my own ship, you know, I was the master of my ship, but when I got outta my lane, you know, and I was invited to a, a golf outing for the football team when I first got to campus. And as it turns out, I was the only woman in the field, and I wouldn't have known that, except there was no line in the ladies room. So I knew immediately there weren't a lot of women out here. And at the end of the day, I was thinking, I'm gonna win all these prizes for closest to the pin in longest drive. And, you know, I've, I'm in my own category. And when I got up at the end of the night, they said, oh, we wanna thank Coach McGraw for coming and, and we have a gift for you. So I was waiting for my new driver, a new putter, and they gave me bubble bath. And you know, when I look back on that, I think, wow, I guess we have come a long way. But I mean, to start with that, it was insulting in, in a lot of ways. But you know what, I think you have to kind of draw the line and say, you know, here's when I gotta really use my voice and, uh, and step up. You've probably gone through a lot of the same things. You're in a, a much more dominated, with the NBA. So what kind of experiences have you had?

Ruth 11:49

Yeah, it's been, it's been eyeopening for me, because playing, obviously in the WBA, we were fighting for our leagues trying to understand like it was a different type of fight for women's sports. And then my first job, uh, post playing was the gm, in the WBA for the San Antonio Stars. And so, you know, the ownership though was definitely all male. And, and so what I realized was even though I had a couple really great advocates and they were guys down there, they still don't know what you need and there's no way they can know if you don't speak up. and so I quickly learned that I have to speak up, which as you know, that's is a shy person or an introvert, like that's challenging my comfort zone. But then also you get tired of always having to speak up. So then there's the reality that as a woman, like you have to keep fighting forward. You have to pick your battles, you have to continue to forge forward and have those difficult conversations. And sometimes you just need to outlet because it's hard. And if we pretend it's not hard, or if we pretend like we've arrived or we pretend like it's not a struggle, like I think, you know, we're setting ourselves up for disappointment. But I think with the right mindset and creating a good peer group too is important. We need to, especially how like supportive women in similar spaces where you can have honest conversations that you might not be able to have, on your job too. So those are some things that have helped, helped me along the way.

Muffet 13:19

You know, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said advocate, because people talk about I need a mentor. You know, I need somebody to guide me. But really what we need is somebody in the room who's got a seat at that table that's gonna open their mouth and say, no, we need to promote Ruth because she's doing this. And that's where I think there's a little bit of a disconnect. we need to make sure there's people in the room. And sometimes there's women in the room, maybe only one or two at the table, and I've heard from women who are texting under the table to a man saying, Hey, you need to speak up on this. you need to talk about this. and we all know, we've all been talked over. We've all, you know, you say something, that's a great idea. It's not a great idea until a man says it. the Supreme Court had to change the way they do oral arguments,'cause the women justices were being talked over so often in that. So having that advocate, I think is really key. But also we, unfortunately, we are representing our entire gender. a lot of times in coaching. A a woman doesn't, have a successful career. They're gonna bring in somebody else, like, well, tried the woman that didn't work. Now we're gonna bring in a man where men get to be their own individual self. They, they're, they're judged on who they are, not on their entire gender. And, and I think it's really up to us to pull some women up. I mean, we've got to do more things. I decided in 2011 I was gonna have an all female staff and very few in the country had all female staffs. And that is something that I think more women need to do. We need to help grow women. We need to reach back and pull'em up when we get to that point, because there's room for all of us at the table. And that's something that we, we really need to do. But, you know, right now we're in an era of unprecedented growth. Women's sports are really, really doing well. And I think when you look at some of the numbers, two years ago, the Women's Final Four, outdrew the men's, I mean, that was, that was a phenomenal nobody ever expected that would happen. Uh, last year, 34% increase in the WNBA viewership. 15 games had to be moved to a bigger arena to accommodate the fans who wanted to see mostly Kaitlyn Clark play. but the problem is right now we have girls dropping outta sports. You know, 94% of female executives played a sport. Play sports is great for women and especially women leaders. but some of those studies that we're looking at, say, when a woman, a girl has a female coach, she stays in the game longer. So we've made some great strides. We've got some work to do. What are your thoughts on that, Ruth?

Ruth 15:43

Yeah, you know, I read, I read that study too, and I think it also goes back to your previous point of did women have to believe that they can do it, right? Because like for you to coach, you're already doing the carpool, you're probably, you're working a job, you're doing everything else at home, and you're thinking, how can I add coaching on top of that? He's like, it's important. So I, I think just asking, you know, I have an incredible supportive husband, so he would a hundred percent say, here, go coach. Like. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take care of this at home. And so I think having those conversations are important to allow yourself the freedom in your schedule to be able to do it. But you have to believe that it's important. You have to know how important that is. I think, I, I, I love seeing how far we've come, especially, you know, those first few years in the WNBA and you know, remember coming in the league and like Nike was, uh, I was a Nike athlete. And at the time they're like, well, women's sports isn't gonna sell, you know, so we all wore men's shoes because, you know, now, you know, like that just wasn't something that they believed was a possibility. And, our heat practice the other day, all our coaches were wearing women's shoes. They were wearing Sabrinas Asias. And I was like, look at how far we've come. Like this is incredible. To see that we're finally able to realize that, you know, women do have that opportunity. To generate revenue. you know, we just have to market them well, which I think was something that is, we're still evolving. but I do think besides encouraging women to coach, we have to continue to encourage young girls to play. And so I've also seen some studies where when you pull parents to have a boy and a girl, the boys always given the opportunity because it's assumed that the boy's gonna wanna play sports. Well, hey, you know, like, just make sure that your daughter has that same opportunity.

Service and Community Involvement

Muffet 17:36

Especially when you see the benefits down the road of what it will do. Being on a team teaches you so many things, being a leader and all the things you learn from sports, there's so many great life skills that we can take with us into the business world. And I think that is just so important for us. But it, it is a stereotype right now. I mean, you, you still go into the store and you wanna buy a gift for a child. There's the Pink Isles and then there's the Blue Isles. And, you know, eventually, I know I, I have a granddaughter now, 18 months, I'm like, don't anybody get her a doll, don't give her anything pink. Okay. Because we're gonna get her the chemistry set or the doctor set or, or whatever it is. And I know you're gonna do the same when Grace gets to that age, but I think we have to start changing those stereotypes and it's gonna be up to us. I mean, I feel like I've been fighting for 50 years and you mentioned the constant, constant little nicks. You know, I call'em paper cuts. We're just always, there's just always this little kind of slight, um, that we're all facing. And eventually it'll make you strong enough to stand up and really fight for what you want. But you know, Notre Dame does a great job of promoting service, and you were always someone who was willing to go out in the community, get involved and do things. Back before the NIL we, we didn't have to pay you to do community service, which is another whole nother topic. you were always willing to get out, sign autographs, do do whatever. and I remember after the final four when you probably got 200 letters and you sat down and wrote a personal note to each and every one of them. But service, you've done the nothing but nets, for mosquito nets in Africa. You've done the no kid hungry, which close to my heart, the food bank is, is something that we all are concerned about. How did that kind of shape your perspective and your leadership?

Ruth 19:14

Yeah, I think, I think it started because I grew up in a family didn't, that didn't have a lot. My mom worked incredibly hard. She was a blue collar worker. you know, so I saw and I was grateful for the people who helped me along the way. And so, you know, as, as a. As I was growing up, I, there was a sense of gratitude and then you layer on my faith, which is obviously very important to me and, and the service that is ingrained in that. And then when I got to Notre Dame, it was then I had a platform, um, that I realized that wow, these people, because of who I am, because of what I'm doing on the court, I have a point of connection. And so I quickly realized that, you know, there's an opportunity to take a small amount of time on my end to make a big difference in someone else's life. And then on the WNBA, that platform really expanded because I was intentional about creating space in my schedule. So to really do something and when you say yes, as you know, then you're gonna get asked to do a lot. So you have to be very selected to what's most important to you. but I didn't wanna be an athlete, which is good intentions. I wanted to make sure that there was action behind my intentions. And so I would always spend a part of my off season making sure that I was doing something. Once you've had that experience of helping someone by just showing up or by providing a lifesaving bed net that costs$5 to us, but is, you know, ensuring the safety of a family for their life. It's, it really is humbling and, and it really changes how you see the world.

Muffet 20:47

It's really rewarding. And that's, I think, the thing people don't underst. It's, it makes you feel good to be able to, to help people. And I was thrilled when Dolly Duffy decided we were gonna have a meals with Muffet, uh, everybody in their communities was getting money or, or collecting food for the food bank. And some of you on the call, I, I know, participate in that. And so thank you very much for that. I'm still trying to do that here locally and, and I think service is so important and it does kind of change your perspective a little bit on things, but you know what else changes your perspective when you become a mom? You got a little sister, so Grace is now on the scene now, now you've got two and, uh. How has that changed your perspective on leadership, being a mom, work-life balance? So many things go into that.

Ruth 21:29

Yeah, you know, I, I, the first thing that came to mind when I, when I hear balance, I feel like that's just not possible. Like, it's just never balanced, right? You see that perfect like statue of like equality and you, for me it's like, it's heater, totter. It's like you're up and you're down and your mom and your wife and you're, you know, working, working. And so it, you just, I think have the, for me it has to have the appropriate expectation or you're just constantly disappointed that you're not able to do it all. And that's just not possible. And so I'm learning'cause grace still isn't sleeping through the night. So I'm learning through that, that sleep deprivation part two phase. but also I, I just think what's helped me is trying to be very present when I'm at work and very present when I'm at home. And to not allow those two spaces to. To really bleed into each other because, I think that's something I've done a much better job of when Grace came on the scene of just understanding the importance of that. But I know there's a lot of women on this, on this call and on this chat, and so any advice that you all have, uh, please throw it in the chat. We'd love to, we'd love to, to see what you, Bob is saying. And Coach, I've, I've seen you with Murph and you're an incredible mother, and Murph's an amazing, well man. Now I can't even say boy, obviously, but, um, we, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Muffet 22:52

Well, and I think one of the things you said, you have to have a great spouse. it's great if you have that support group at home, uh, whoever that is, that's helping you. That is really key. And you also said something really important, having both feet in the place that you are. You know, sometimes you got one foot at work, one foot at home, oh, I'm missing this. And then you, then you go there and then you're, you're missing something else. And so really having both feet in, I think is so important. For me, having Murphy and watching him play sports changed my leadership completely. I mean, I did a 180 because I was so, I was just kind of a dictator, you know, here's where we're going. Get on the bus. Don't ask me any questions. That's how it was back in the eighties and nineties when Bobby Knight was, was the one everybody was emulating. You know, it's my way, the highway. I would come home from a game that would say, well, what did the team think about this? And I would say, well, what did they think? I tell them what to think. I, I don't ask them what they thought. And then I watched Murph and, you know, he'd come out of the game and I'd be looking at the coach, what's he saying? What, what's, what, what does his face look like? And it was like, uh, this great moment when I thought, oh my God, my players parents are watching when their daughter comes out of the game and I'm in her face screaming, or I'm walking the other way. And I mean, it just, it just was like a light bulb went off and I went, oh my God, I gotta do better. I have to completely change the leadership style. We have to be much more. relationship oriented, much more of a collaborator, you know, asking people what they think, which I think the four biggest words a leader can say four most important words. What do you think? before you tell'em what you think, you know, you have to ask them that, so they can say it. And then, you know, just, just really listening more, just being a better listener. establishing that trust and that relationship off the court. and that, that really changed my style completely. And then for the better for sure. And the old player says, you know, when you come back you're like, wow, you got soft. And you were exactly right. I definitely did change, but, well, we wanna hear from all of you, so we're hoping that some of those questions in the chat will get answered. So we're gonna bring Jennifer back and she was going to look on the chat and see what questions you wanna have an answer to.

Jennifer 25:00

Yeah. Thank you so much. thank you for submitting questions. Uh, we have a lot to, to pick from, so. I'm gonna start with a question from Heather Gordon. and she says her daughter currently plays D one soccer, and she feels with the transfer portal, these days, these teams change so much from year to year. How do you build trust so quickly as a player for teams to succeed when the team is so dynamic each year? Ruth, do you

Muffet 25:33

wanna start on that one?

Ruth 25:36

So, from the player's perspective, how does a player build trust? Or how does a team build trust with the players?

Jennifer 25:42

I think we could go both ways. So, she is a mom asking about her daughter. So maybe from the daughter's pers from the player's perspective.

Ruth 25:52

Yeah, I, it's kind of, you know, it's, it's obviously hard to build trust quickly, right? And so you wanna make sure that you're showing up authentically, that you're showing that. Because I imagine I didn't live in, in the land of NILI lived in the land of very little per diem. So those are two different worlds. but I, I imagine that the money can cause interesting dynamics within a team. And so, making sure that, you know, you are showing up in a way that your teammates, you know, really know that you want to be there, I think is important. and you know, obviously, you know, you have to buy into the culture of the team as well, and the money can be about you'cause everyone's trying to get a certain number or a certain situation. But the reality is that, I mean, you're playing on a team for a reason, so I gonna make sure you're, you're building into that team dynamic.

Muffet 26:45

Well, you're right about that. Trust is slowly earned, but you can lose it in a second. I think one of the first ways. You have to build a deeper relationship with your teammates and with the coaching staff. Uh, one of the things to do that is you have to be willing to be vulnerable. You can't act like you know it all. You have all the answers. You have to be somebody that can say, man, I, I made that mistake and here's what I learned from it. you have to be able to really listen. People listen and wait for their chance to speak. They, they don't really always hear, or they hear the words, but they don't hear what's going on behind the words. So I think active listening, you know, tell me more. You know, I might not like what you're saying, but I wanna hear it. I wanna hear all of it. And so I can digest and say, well, how can I do better to help you? And I always tell, I tell my, my, uh, my students right now, when you wanna have a tough conversation with somebody, it's best to go in and think about asking questions. instead of saying, you know, I don't think we trust each other. I don't like what we're doing here. You know, say here, are there ways that we can get together and have some team building things? Could we do more as a team? Could we have dinner someplace? Uh, let's, let's all go over to somebody's house. You know, and, and get together off the field because that's where you get your relationship, that's where you start to build things. But it's gotta be deep. It can't be superficial. And so if, if you don't have that vulnerability and that feeling of safety, you know, everybody feels like this is a safe space. Our locker room's a safe space. I can say what I want. And because we have that trust, we can be honest with each other and, and talk about things.

Jennifer 28:16

Thank you so much. Moffitt, I'm going to ask a question to you because, you are teaching at the Mendoza College of Business. You seem to be an expert in leadership and, um, this is from Jennifer. I'm not sure how to pronounce her last name, ingress or Ingress. But, uh, how have you handled the situation where one or few other women in the room actively work against the promotion of other women?

Muffet 28:45

That's a real problem. And, and it's unfortunate. And I think what you need to do is you need to address it. I think you need to get together and you need to all, you know, go out to lunch, have a meeting, go get coffee, sit down and talk about what you think, we need to do. why do you think, you're not supporting me in this? Or what, what can I do to get your support? How can I, you know, kind of frame the question of, I feel like maybe we need to have a better relationship, outside of the office. what is it that you're seeing that you're, you're not willing to promote women? Um, what can I do to make you see things a little bit differently? but I think you have to, you have to go at it because conflict is good. Conflict can be good. You're gonna figure something out. And I think people shy away from it, especially women. We hate conflict. People shy away from that. And you have to be able to directly ask a person. How do you feel about this? Um, let's talk about it. You know, what are some things, help me see your point of view. tell me some things that, that maybe I'm missing and could help the situation.

Teaching Sports Leadership

Jennifer 29:48

Yeah. Thank you so much. Can you tell us a little bit more about the class that you're teaching at Notre Dame?

Muffet 29:54

I teach a class that's called Sports Leadership, how Leaders Help, teams Flourish. And it is all about the things I learned in 40 years of coaching. there's actually no academic part of it at all. Ruth has spoken, my class a few times and I try to bring in some guest speakers, but generally we just take different things and we go along with, emotional intelligence, culture captains, teamwork, leadership, uh, some of the books we are reading, the Speed of Trust by Covey, five Dysfunctions of a Team, the Culture Code by Daniel Coyle. and we talk about them in class, but it's just a fun class. it's trying to teach kids. How to approach difficult situations, how to lead. people don't really wanna lead sometimes. And so we talk about, you know, you, you get your group together for your group project. What are you going to say to make people think that you're the leader of that group and how would you phrase it? What exactly what words would you use? So I try to really help them, get ready to be a leader.

Jennifer 30:51

That's

Ruth 30:51

awesome. Her class, her class is amazing. it's really, I wish I, I wish I, well, I did go to that class every day in practice, but, I wish they had more classes like that when I was there. I just wanna say too, that people think you're the best player's gonna be the leader, and that's not the case. Right. You're not always equipped to do that. but also like, leadership is hard. People don't talk about how hard it's to lead. It's, it's lonely, it's hard. All the pressure's on you, you get none of the praise, understandably. it's a very humbling job and it's constantly putting out fires. And so to do it well, it is. Exceptionally difficult. You do it well because you care about the people that you're leading. Um, but you have to also care for yourself as a leader to be able to withstand the pressure of leading. And I think coaches class really speaks into that.

Muffet 31:38

And it takes courage, right? It takes courage to be able to stand up and use your platform like you do Ruth, and don't ever read the comments. that's my only tip for everyone. If you get on social media, don't, don't read the comments, but it takes courage to be able to stand up and say what you believe in. and I think that's an important part of it too.

Jennifer 31:56

Yeah, definitely. Ruth, I have a question for you. When you think about success today after everything you've achieved, how do you define it differently than you did during your time as a college player, if at all?

Ruth 32:13

Oh, I think, well, definitely growing up success was more, um. You know, uh, achievement driven, right? It was, it was very, you know, goal-oriented, winning the championship, very single-minded. and then I think for me now, it is really just woven into who I am as a person, where I'm at with my faith, you know, how I've helped those around me. And so defining success now is, is, is being the best version of myself. And I think a lot of times, especially as young athletes, success is trying to, to be someone maybe you're not even created to be.'cause you, you, you have this idea of, I wanna be this athlete, but maybe you don't have that skillset, or I wanna be this type of, you know, in, in industry leader. And maybe that's not what you're actually called to do. And so I think really finding purpose, living out purpose, being authentic to who I am and. And realizing that I'm not perfect. but doing the best within that, those, that realm I think defines success for me now.

Jennifer 33:26

I love that. Thank you. I have a question from Mandy Gonzalez Thompson, and she wants to know, how has your relationship with one another evolved from player coach to how you interact now? Moffitt, do you wanna go first?

Muffet 33:42

Yeah. It's, it's been so fun and I think initially, you know, Ruth was in that generation when I was still a little bit of the authoritarian, you know, start, definitely started out that way. Um, and by the time she graduated we had grown and we trusted each other. I think. I think that was the, the main thing. We, we had the kind of relationship where we trusted each other, we cared about each other, we believed in each other. And then as she went on to the WNBA, I was her biggest fan, biggest supporter. and just so many little ways, even from afar because she, you know, she didn't, she didn't always live close, but just trying to keep in touch and, uh, and being there for her when, when she needed anything, and then being at her wedding and, and seeing her kids. It's just, you know, it's just continuance to grow.

Ruth 34:25

Yeah. I, and one of the reasons why I came to not Dame was obviously the culture that Coach had established and, and who she was and what she stood for. and so, you know, I could have never dreamt that from, from making that commitment as a freshman to now. Like, I mean, she's one of the most influential figures in my life. she's a mentor, a friend. She feels like family and, and so I'm just so incredibly grateful and, you know, that role of, of coach can be so impactful and, and, you know, it is, you know, one that I'm just so really appreciative of.

Jennifer 35:07

coach, uh, we have a question for you. A couple people have asked. Would you consider coaching A-W-N-B-A team or have another role with the WNBA team?

Muffet 35:18

Let me just say that I'm enjoying my retirement and, uh, I have had some offers to coach in the WNBA and I am not the least bit interested. When I le left, I left at the perfect time. I knew it was time to move on. Uh, I loved every minute of it, but I, I don't miss it one bit.

Jennifer 35:38

That's fair. I have another question. This is from Lauren Rudy and she says, what would be your best advice for parents of girls to instill confidence and resiliency in our daughters?

Muffet 35:52

I could suggest a book first. It's called the Confidence Code. And it's, it was a great book, for me to read just because so many women are going through the same things. And you read this book and you go, wow, I, I thought I was the only one that felt that way or that had that experience. And the thing with girls where they go through so many tough ages, they lose their confidence around age 11. They don't get it back until they're in their twenties. So it's really important that you kind of, you listen to them, you have to really, really work at it because it's very hard sometimes to, you know, let them make mistakes, praise them for their effort. Make sure you're not praising them for being the best player out there or telling them you are, you're the best one out there because what you're doing is you're setting these. Incredibly high expectations. You're the smartest kid in class. You're, you're the best player on the team. And we think we're complimenting, but we're really, what we're doing is we're creating this pressure now. They gotta live up to this. My God, they think I'm the best I gotta do. I gotta be better. Maybe I should just quit rather than do that. So I think praising their effort, not forcing them to do anything they don't wanna do, if they don't wanna play, we try to get'em involved and just be there to support them all the time and listen to them, you know, ask questions about it. you can kind of help them a along the way, just by those kind of things. But, you know, I've read a study that said when kids were asked, who do they wanna drive home with after the game, they all said the grandparents, nobody would go with mom and dad because they were too honest about things. So really back, don't be that parent in the stands, just be the one that's like, great job. Yeah, yeah. I, I see you, I see what a great teammate you are. I, I see the things that you're doing that nobody appreciates. I see how important, you know, being a good teammate is to you just try to find things that you can compliment them on. Things that they really can say like, yeah, I did, I did work really hard today. You know, things that they can look at like that. so don't set the bar too high.

Ruth 37:41

And Jennifer, I just wanna jump in with two, two things really quick. Uh, because, you know, when I speak to young girls, this is something that is really, I'm really passionate about. And we talk a lot about confidence, but I think we have to talk more about courage, because courage is like the, you know, facing your fears. It doesn't mean you're gonna succeed, but it's, it's giving yourself the credit for showing up and for, for challenging yourself. And you might not win the game. You might not make the goal, it doesn't matter. But your courage is, you know, giving girls, uh, the, the tools and the resources to tap into their courage more. And then celebrating courage, I think is really important. But then the other side, when you talk about confidence, we always talk about being confident in the. The positive result of winning, of doing some great achievement. But you can also build confidence and resiliency and confidence in what happens when you fail and how do you approach, bouncing back. And I think having those conversations, I wish I would've if I could have talked to my younger self to say, you know what, if I miss a shot, I know exactly how I'm gonna respond and then I can bounce back quicker than building this mountain of, you know, failure in my own mind. And I think that's much more difficult.

Muffet 38:57

And I think one note for parents, let your kids fail. So many times we wanna plow the road and take away all the bumps in the road so they never learn how to be resilient. They never learn how to battle, how to have that mental toughness. that is a great skill. Uh, like Ruth was saying, the the the ability to fail and get back up and try again. And if you don't let them fail along the way, they're never gonna learn those skills. So don't make it easy on'em, make it harder for them, will tell you, I made it plenty hard for them.

Jennifer 39:31

So I love that advice. I have a son at home who is seven years old and thinks he wants to play football for Notre Dame, and we're working on the basics, like throwing and catching. but as he becomes older, um, you know, how do you, how do you overcome loss and keep striving and how, like how do you teach someone, how to be resilient or, I'm looking for personal advice. This question is from me.

Ruth 40:00

Go ahead Bruce. Yeah, I'm trying to think. You know, I think my mom. So what she did that was great was that she was always supportive, but she, you know, challenged me to set goals. I think if you don't have goals, like you're just kind of aimlessly, you know, you know, not working towards something. but to build resilience, I think you do have to in some ways, embrace the failure, but also give yourself license to fail fast and move forward. And so for me, if I make a mistake and now, even now in my job, right? Like I, when I was on TV or, or I do something at work and instead of replaying the mistake in my mind, it's what do I learn from it? And how do I move on? How do I get better? How do I challenge myself? Or how do I just give myself grace and say it's okay. I'm not perfect.

Muffet 40:52

Yeah. And if they never have to overcome anything, they're not, they're never gonna learn resilience. So I think keeping those bumps in the road is really, it's, it's how they do it. It's, it's an experience. You hate to watch your kids fail. I mean, it's, it's so hard as a parent to watch them struggle and go through things, but you just have to think when they come out on the other side, they're gonna be so much better for it.

Jennifer 41:15

Thank you. I'm taking some notes down here. Muff, this is a question from Kate Smith and she wants to know what is it like to have a statue on campus?

Muffet 41:27

You know, it's really disconcerting because I have to walk by it occasionally and I really, I almost just wanna look the other way sometimes, or I go, go behind it. I was going by one time. These people were taking a picture there and I was like, oh, you want me to take that picture? And they were like, yeah, sure. So I took a picture of them at my, they did not recognize me until afterwards. And then, uh, then I was able to get in the picture with'em. But it really, I mean, I was honored of course, and just great for women, right. I was, I was happy to be, be able to, you know, kind of put women, women forward a a little bit. but still it's, it's incredibly humbling and it feels like a lot to live up to.

Mid-Career Shifts

Jennifer 42:09

Well, I feel like you've accomplished a lot and you earned it. So, um, do you have any advice for women looking to make a mid-career shift to a different sector? we've talked a lot about leadership, but, I don't know if either of you have done that at all, or if you have any advice to share.

Muffet 42:31

Ruth, it's probably done it a little more than I have, but I, I would say the thing for women is you gotta know what you want and you, you have to look at it and say, how do I get there? And you have to be willing to hear some, some, maybe some honest feedback. So, for example, if, if you're in a, a business and you know you wanna get promoted, even if you're in the same business and you wanna get, you have to be able to go into your boss and let him know, like, I want this job. And what do you think I need to do to get there? What are my strengths and weaknesses as you see them? What are some things that you could do to prepare me for, you know, I, I'm thinking of moving into a different part of the company. You know, what do you, what do you see as my strengths and weaknesses? Do you know what they are? Nobody cares about your career as much as you do, so you have to go in and know, this is what I'm good at. I could be good at this. It's not bragging when you've already done it. When you know what you're good at, it's okay to say, I'm really good at this. I'm very organized. You know, I, I've done this and I've done that. But you have to be able to, to hear what people are thinking, because lemme tell you, your boss is when it comes time to promote people, he is not going, oh, she's doing a really good job. Let's look at her. He's hiring a guy, he's playing golf with, you know, he, he's hiring some other guy because people still hire people who look like them. We need to get in there and sell ourselves a little bit more and find some, some mentors, as Ruth was saying, some advocates, some people are in that other business that you wanna get into. What does it take to break into this business? How, how do I have to do, where do I go? I could start at the bottom. I'm okay with that. Just tell me what I need to learn. And again, knowing what you're good at is great.

Ruth 44:04

I think I'll answer this a little differently because my, my pivots were like very hard pivots from player to general manager to tv. And studio and radio to now front office. And so some of those, you know, I, I felt like I, I knew I had experience as a player. I know I game, I work hard, I need the CVA, but I'd never been a GM before. And so what do you do when sometimes even your opportunity, you know, maybe your resume doesn't lead up to the experience that you would want to feel confident in this situation. And so that's when you have to tap into, okay, what I know true about myself is that I'm gonna work real. I'm a good learner. I'm gonna learn quick. If I mess up, I'm gonna fail forward. and so you have to, to know that even though you might not check every box of what somebody who has experience in that role that you're looking to get into, might have, that the experience you do have is important. And how do you tap into being confident in that or just confident in your personal skillset of a leader, a hard worker. you know, a fast learner and you have to be humble too, because if you're switching jobs, it's, it's, it's incredibly humbling to, like, in some ways you might not have, you might still have a title, but it's still humbling because you don't have the experience yet. And so you, you know, being humbled and allowing yourself to be humbled in that process is important too. Jennifer, I think you're muted.

Jennifer 45:42

Of course. I'm sorry about that. thank you. Ruth, have there been moments in your career when living by your faith or values felt at odds with the pressure to win or get ahead? How did you navigate that tension?

Ruth 45:59

Yeah. playing for bill and beer, it's like a direct conflict. Probably my faith and, uh, his personality. And so, you know, it's, it's cha it's challenging, um, because you know, if you're working for, working with people who are, are difficult or maybe, you know, have different values, you know, that situation can wear on you. And so I think in some ways you have to dig deeper into, you know, your own roots and what you believe. And so I think that's gonna give you the stability that's, that's important. Um, making sure that you have your own community. For me, I have a great faith-based community here. Ben and I, you know, love our church and that is really helpful to like, feel that we have a community that does have those values, but also. You know, I, I do remember just times where I would like Bill and I just saw things differently and we're in a world, and you know what? That's okay. He's who he is and you know, I'm gonna be the light that I am and people might not always be, you know, be looking for that or want to be that. But at the end of the day, like I have to, uh, my faith is more important to me, uh, I think than trying to mold into what society might have or my situation might have, uh, wanted me to be.

Jennifer 47:30

Thank you. Moffitt, uh, this is from Mary Ky. She says she really enjoys the work you have done as a sports analyst on tv. Could you talk about the behind the scenes preparation you do in that role?

Muffet 47:44

Well, it's a ton of work. I first call was to Ruth, I think, to say, well, how do you do it? you're doing radio. How do you remember all that, all that information. And it's a, it is, preparation is key. I mean, I have to know every team. And now we get new teams in the league. Now I need to know 18 teams. And now I'm over on ES pn. Now I need to know the top 20 teams. So it's, it's a ton of work. And generally I'm on for less than five minutes.'cause I'm on it halftime and you get like a two minute beat on what just happened in the game. All that work I did, I know everybody's stats and I know everybody, everybody's strengths. And I'm only talking about what just happened in the game. So I really enjoy it. It's, it's a lot of behind the scenes work. Uh, there's somebody in your ear constantly, you know, telling you things and, and you know, from little things like you're looking in the wrong direction, you know, like face that way. Uh, there's a lot of little things to learn, but the women that I'm working with are phenomenal. I really, I love the team that we have on a c, c network and I'm thoroughly enjoying.

Jennifer 48:43

Great. Thank you. You've both seen the women's game grow tremendously. We talked a little about that earlier, but we wanna know what changes excite you the most and where do you think Notre Dame's program fits in shaping the future of women's basketball?

Muffet 49:00

I think the thing that excites me the most is the, the fans and the at attendants across the country. I mean, we, we used to go into gyms and there would be nobody there, you know, and now it's, it seems like, especially at the top, every place you go, it's a tough place to play. You go to NC State, it's a sellout. You go to Louisville, it's a sellout. You go to Connecticut, it's a sellout. Everybody is, is doing so much more to market their teams and the product is tremendous. I mean, you look at the talent level, we've got Hannah Hega, who is one of the best players, if not the best player in the country. So I think the level of play has really risen. There's exciting games to see. The women's game especially is, is a lot more fun to watch. I think there's a, it's, you know, it's different than the men's game. The men's game is, is played at a little higher level in terms of dunking and, and around the rim where the women's game is still more, teamwork and, uh, and a little more offense. But, um, you know, I, I love the direction Neil Ivy's taken our team. I think we, we have so many good players coming in. She had a tremendous recruiting class they're about to sign. I think next week might be the number one class in the country, certainly in, in the top five. So I think we're really headed in the right direction.

Jennifer 50:07

Ruth, anything you wanna add to that?

Ruth 50:10

Yeah, I mean, I think that coach obviously hit most of the highlights, but the, the, I think Notre Dame's role is also like how to, how to be elite with integrity. Like to be true to what Notre Dame is and what we stand for, which is excellent, but doing things the right way. In a world where it's kind of the wild, wild west right now, um, with rules and regulation. And so I think that's where, that's what I love about Notre Dame. That's what I, you know, was drawn to. And I think that's an opportunity where Notre Dame can really separate itself.

Jennifer 50:42

Yeah. Thank you. how do you feel about the culture of travel sports in this country? Has this made sports unattainable to families who are unable to fund?

Muffet 50:54

I'm not a huge fan of what's going on, mainly because 95, 98, 90 9% of the coaches are men. And I've heard the way they talk to some of the girls on the team. Uh, they're very demeaning and, and there's a lot of issues I think associated with that. I think it takes away from the high school sports. I, I think they try to say, you know what, you can only play basketball. I, I, I don't want you playing soccer. I don't want you to run cross country. I don't want you playing lacrosse. You gotta focus on this. And it's really a bad thing for kids because it's proven from, you know, doctors. The more sports you play, the better it is for your body. You, you go from, you know, one to the other, you're using different muscles. And for me, sometimes you're a better player on one team and maybe a bench player on the other. So you're learning a ton about leadership. This is what it's like to sit on the bench. You're learning some really good lessons by playing other sports that maybe you're not quite as good at. and I think that the time commitment, it's just so big that kids, by the time they get to college, they're ready to quit. They've just, they've spent so much into it. And I think parents are thinking, I gotta get a scholarship, so I'm gonna get her on this travel team when she's nine or 10 years old. And, and they're just, they're burning out. So I think that variety of different sports, the high school level, you know, find the one you like. Yeah. In the summer, maybe focus on the one that you like, but in high school, play as many sports as you can.

Ruth 52:17

I don't, with my, with Theo three and Grace is four months, so we haven't hit the travel ball schedule opportunity yet. And it was very different when I played. Um, but it's one that, you know, I, I've heard my teammates and other people talk about that, you know, is, is really challenging to navigate,

Muffet 52:39

especially when you have other kids and you're dragging them around. I would see families in the gym like all day long. These little kids forced to, you know, sit in the gym and watch this and, uh, yeah. I, I just don't think it's healthy.

Jennifer 52:53

I agree. Muppet, we're getting a request, if you don't mind repeating the books that you teach in your class again.

Muffet 53:00

Oh yeah. Um, some of

Jennifer 53:02

write those down.

Muffet 53:03

Okay. So the confidence code was not one I use in class, but it's a great book for women. The Culture Code is by Daniel Coyle, who is a Notre Dame grad, and he talks about building culture. He looks at different teams around the, around the world. five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni. Uh, was, was really good. And then the Speed of Trust by Stephen Covey. What we do is, uh, for my class, it's only a credit and a half, so I don't actually make them read the whole book. I actually have them listened to the podcast, which I think is a great way to kind of get the gist of what the books are about.

Jennifer 53:40

Thank you. I'm trying to check the time and make sure we have time for just a few more questions. any thoughts on how the transfer portal and NIL is changing the game right now?

Muffet 53:54

Well, it's completely changed the game. I hate both of them. Uh, I, I really hate it because. We used to have a rule called the one year transfer. You, you could go, once you make a mistake, you go ahead, you go somewhere else. Now, if you don't get what you want immediately, if you don't start, you don't get enough shots, you're not the star. You got one foot out the door the moment you arrive on campus. It is terrible for team culture. There's no commitment. There's no loyalty. It's all about me, me, me. There's no life lessons learning. Hey, we have, I, we have 10 players in the WNBA. I bet five of'em didn't start till they were juniors. You know, like they, they earned their way. They understood how the process was. They were willing to wait their turn. kids aren't like that anymore. They have their hand out immediately. When, when Neil makes a call to somebody, the first question is, how much you given me? I mean, that's their first question. The high school kids have agents, they're asking for money. They've never played a minute in college. There's players that wanna transfer in, and that again, first question, what are you gonna pay me? So it's turned into, you know, instead of like, I'm coming for. For Notre Dame and for all the things you stand for. And I, I wanna help the team win. And, and all these great life skills you're learning, it turns into this transaction where I'm just coming for the money and I'm, I'm gonna leave if somebody offers me more. and that's what you saw last year, people leaving'cause somebody offered'em more. And it's just, I think a horrible, horrible place. It's, it's changed what athletics are supposed to be about, which is learning great skills that are gonna help you down the road. And I, I, you know, I feel bad for these kids that are chasing the money.'cause eventually it's gonna dry up. They're not gonna make it in the pros. And then where are they gonna be?

Ruth 55:35

there's not much to add to that.

Jennifer 55:38

That's fair. we're gonna wrap things up with one last question. What's one piece of advice you'd give to women who wanna lead with purpose? Muff, why don't you answer first?

Muffet 55:50

I think generally my advice for women is to expect more. I think I wrote a book and I called it Expect More because you know what, women don't. We, we never expect more. We take less and we deal with it. We take less money, we take less opportunity, and we just go, that's just the way it is, and it's gonna have to roll with it. and for me, growing up in, in, uh, the time that I did, I was always so grateful, oh my gosh, we're gonna get to play basketball. We don't have scholarships. We gotta do our own laundry. We gotta buy our own shoes. We gotta dry ourselves to the game. That's great. I'm all in. so I, I think it's time that we stopped being so thankful and start looking at like, what more do we deserve? Because we deserve more and we're just not asking for it.

Ruth 56:34

And I think for me it's, it's, two things. It would be, you know, to arm yourself with courage, but also a lot of grace. Give yourself grace, I mean, to be able to show up and expect more. You have to be the best version of yourself to do that. And so sometimes, you know. We create this narrative about ourself because of what we've gone through. And, you know, just give yourself grace to, to be in that moment, and arm yourself with courage to, to step into the arena and to, you know, to face the fear failure and to believe that, you know, you're gonna overcome that. And so, you know, I would love for women to be the best versions of themselves as they're moving forward into this space.

Muffet 57:19

Yeah. Don't try to lead like a man. Be your authentic self, like Ruth said.

Jennifer 57:31

Alright, thank you so much Ruth and Coach McGraw. Thank you for joining us tonight and for sharing your insight and experiences with us. It was truly an inspiring conversation. And thank you to our audience for tuning in. To find out more about our inspired conversation series and see recordings of our past events on ThinkND, please visit us at ThinkND edu. To learn more about Notre Dame Women Connect and how you can get involved, please visit us at Women connect alumni nd edu and follow us on social media. Please stay tuned for more details on our next virtual event, trading Stories coming up this January. Thanks again for joining and go Irish.

Muffet 58:22

Thanks everyone.

Ruth 58:23

Bye.

Jennifer 58:24

Thank you.