Caregiving with Dignity, Part 4: Preserving Legacy

Episode Topic: Preserving Legacy

Listen in to a conversation with Edward Augustine ’87, Zesha Holyfield ’01, James Riley ’94, and Rochelle Valsaint ’95 about essential topics like protecting your loved ones’ assets, navigating long-term care options, and understanding the general legal tools that are at your disposal in consultation with your own private licensed counsel in your local jurisdiction, such as trusts, powers of attorney, and advance directives, as well as balancing the emotional journey of caregiving with the practicalities of managing finances and general estate planning. 

Featured Speakers:

• Dr. Scott Alves Barton, Assistant Professor of African Studies, University of Notre Dame 
• Zada Ballew ’19, chair of the Native American Alumni of Notre Dame
• JoAnn Chávez ’86 BBA, ’90 J.D.
• Zesha Holyfield ’01, Nurse Practitioner, Essen Health Care
• Emorja Roberson ‘17 MM, ‘22 Ph.D., Assistant Professor of Music and African American Studies, Oxford College of Emory University
• Don Wycliff ’69, reporter, editor, editorial writer and opinion columnist

Read this episode's recap over on the University of Notre Dame's open online learning community platform, ThinkND: https://go.nd.edu/315a9d.

This podcast is a part of the ThinkND Series titled Caregiving with Dignity. 

Thanks for listening! The ThinkND Podcast is brought to you by ThinkND, the University of Notre Dame's online learning community. We connect you with videos, podcasts, articles, courses, and other resources to inspire minds and spark conversations on topics that matter to you — everything from faith and politics, to science, technology, and your career.

• Learn more about ThinkND and register for upcoming live events at think.nd.edu.
• Join our LinkedIn community for updates, episode clips, and more.

Transcript

Introduction and Series Overview

Speaker 0:06

Hi. I am Isha Holyfield, family nurse Practitioner board certified, and I am the Director of Alumni Relations for the Black Alumni for the University of Notre Dame. And tonight, I would like to say greetings and thank you for joining us for our final episode of the Caregiving with Dignity Series. Throughout this series, we have explored caregiving as more than a role. It is a responsibility, a relationship, and a cultural practice that's rooted in love, sacrifice, and survival. Across the series, we've examined the emotional, legal, financial, cultural, and spiritual dimensions of caregiving, always centering, dignity, humanity, and community. Before we get started on our final episode, on behalf of the black alumni of Notre Dame, I'd like to extend a sincere thank you. To the Notre Dame Alumni Association and the initiative on Race and Resilience for, for sponsoring Caregiving, caregiving with Dignity. The final episode, preserving Legacy moves us from tasks to meaning. It takes a, it asks a deeper question, what are we carrying forward when we care for our elders, our families, and our communities? Caregiving is not only about managing decline, it is about preserving stories, wisdom, culture, and identity. It is also how legacy is protected, translated, and passed on. This conversation invites us to see caregiving as an act of remembrance and resistance. A way of saying that people, histories and lived experiences matter through music, storytelling, authorship, indigenous leadership, and elder wisdom, we explore health. Le Legacy lives on through care. Now I'll turn it over to our moderator, Scott.

Speaker 3 1:57

Hello. Hello. Good evening. Thank you. I'm interested in this project on two levels. In my personal life, my partner's mother is entering her next chapter. She's losing her ability to live independently, to own and operate a car, and will soon move to another state to live with one of her sons. Secondarily, I'm currently writing a book. I'm ary reps or the final meals from an African and African diaspora context. So care, work and family are a major important stuff to me right now. I'd like to begin with an introductory question. Here we go. Caregiving is often discussed in terms of responsibility and burden. I was a caregiver in my own family from a cultural anthropological perspective. Caregiving is also about meaning and memory. As you introduce yourself, I'm happy to answer this as well. When you think about caregiving, what is one story, a sound, a memory, or a lesson from an elder or from someone you cared for? For cared for that still shapes how you understand dignity and legacy today. Can I begin? Don, I'd like to start with you. Since you have worked as a journalist and a coauthor of Black Doers, you have helped preserve stories that might otherwise disappear. How do you see storytelling as a home of caregiving for both individuals and communities?

Speaker 5 3:30

Thank you, Scott, for the question. Um, I, I've kind of devoted my life to storytelling. That's what journalism is about. And, uh, by way of, uh, by way of moving into this, uh, we, you, you mentioned a second ago, caregiving is often discussed in terms of responsibility and burden. I have to confess that, uh, in the case of my two parents, it was my oldest sister, Karen, who. And burden. She took them in and they both lived their last years and died in her home. And she very and more than ably took care of them to the, to the gratitude of all of us in our family, all eight surviving children. My role has been to be kind of a keeper of Family Chronicles and, um, I, I guess I've taken that very seriously from the time I was a kid, uh, listening to the old folks telling stories. My wife gets on my case about my quoting the old folks all the time, but you know, they had a lot of interesting stuff to tell and I made it a point to keep it in mind. And, uh, um, I guess, I guess the thing I think about most to respond to your particular question, something that, that I remember is how my dad, my mom died in 2013 and my dad lived five more years, died when he was 99. And he, uh, you know, we'd, we'd have fairly regular family gatherings each year at Thanksgiving. And all the kids, all the grandkids would come and they would, he would sit and kind of hold court court and they would listen sometimes to the same story they had heard many times before, but always respectfully. And that was crucial. That was crucial for him and for them. Um, and I think they learned to appreciate that. I'm, I'm deeply grateful that it happened, so, uh, that, that's the one memory that I would cite at this point.

Speaker 3 6:11

Thank you, Don, and bless the spirits of your parents and the legacy they left us in. You.

Speaker 5 6:17

Thank

Indigenous Traditions and Storytelling

Speaker 3 6:18

you. You epitomize for me. One of the things I notice about family, no matter how many children, there's usually one caregiver, like your sister, and not at sometimes in the same person, but not always as in your family. There's one person who keeps the stories, and so really appreciative of your, uh, two, you and your sibling, how they manage that, how you've both managed that. Moving on, let's build on that with you. Zeta, in many indigenous traditions, elders are seen as teachers and knowledge keepers. How does this worldview reshape what caregiving looks like in your community and your family and how dignity is preserved?

Speaker 6 6:58

Yeah. For that question. Um, hi everyone. Like Dr. Barton said, my name is, um, I'm an enrolled citizen of the Ban of Pot Indians, which is the tribe most local to Notre Dame. Um, I'm originally from a small town called Raymond, Wisconsin, but I grew up, um, making the trip from the Potawatomi diaspora back home to our homelands in Deja, Michigan. 30 minutes north of our, our ladies university. Um, I remember that drive fondly, specifically exit 77, seeing Notre Dame pass by as I made my way to my grandma's house. And I'm shocked by how similar our, our opening vignettes are, Dawn, because, um, I was gonna open with a story about my grandma fitting up, me, my sister, my dad, my mom, and my dad's 12 siblings in a house that probably should have only held about three people. Um, and all of us were gathered together, sharing stories about times I had never, never known myself, but heard about from my uncles and my aunts and my dad, and my grandma was the person that kept us together and kept those stories alive. And so I guess part of the, the tradition of indigenous storytelling is. Building the community that you want your people to come home to. And that comes in, in the storytelling itself by, by making that home for us to always come back to in to wa jack that my grandma did. Um, but also thinking about this process, generations in the making. So the stories that we've inherited as indigenous folks, my tribe believes, um, are seven generations in the making. So we think about the seven generations who came before us, who made it possible for us today. And we tried to, oops, sorry, tech history. Uh, and we try to tell stories that will keep, keep things going for the center, seven generations who come after us. And so that generational history, those generational stories, um, have been made long before we got here. And we hope to continue into the future. Community, family, home, placemaking, land, those are all so important to our people, but also to the stories that we tell about the places and the people who, who we love. So dear. So I'm so excited to be part of this conversation, Midwest to Black end, deeper hosting us. Shout out to my board the name American Alumni Board, um, and I, I look forward to, to the next hour with you folks.

Honoring Voice and Autonomy

Speaker 3 9:34

Thank you so much. You know, you recall a conversation recently in my department with Allison, a historian, and we were talking about socioeconomics and that when as immigrants or as people building their family, we get enough economic independence that we start building larger abode. The stories change and there's something about that close proximity that allows for us to be together and tell stories just like within the context of African American culture, this what is now ubiquitous phrase. Say your name. Out of always telling a story about someone who may or may not be here until there's no one left who knows that person. So the story can't be told. Um, so moving forward, let's go to Joanne. Joanne, I know you've spent a career advocating for others. Thank you for that. And reflecting now on legacy, what do you hope caregivers understand about honoring a person's voice? Their choices, their autonomy, even as their needs or lack of independence changes? What do you do what to do if you lose generations early on, whether to death or to dementia or a troubling disease? And don't have the opportunity to speak directly to them and ask the questions you'd like to know the answers to?

Speaker 2 10:59

Hey, you know, it's interesting as I reflect on this often, you know, it, it, it's ingrained in me and I think perhaps for many of us. Family, you don't think choice about it. Um, you there, you know, we are here to help one another no matter what stage of life right. We are in. And so I have been blessed with, I don't it, the responsibility, but blessed with it because I view it as a blessing, right? To carry forward this responsibility of which I've taken on multiple times in my professional career as well as in my personal life. I think that it's really important that we, um, preserve the legacy of our families as well as pass on our stories to our children, to our community, to the next generation. So for me, my parents did die young and my aunts and uncles passed away young. And my grandparents, my abuela, my Abu, they're all gone. And so here I am pretty much alone. Even my sister is deceased and wondering, how do I keep this culture? How do I keep our family's history alive? And I have, uh, limited stories from my family. So I've spent time doing research. I've gone on the genealogy websites. I found my grandparents who died before I was born. I found their immigration papers and their immigration status coming in from Mexico to the us. I found that my mom's family, we are six generation Americans because it's my country. First, the border moved on on them, right? And so I, I think these are the things that we can't forget, and I worry so much. I told someone this. I have a granddaughter who is 11 and she's only 25% Latino. I have raised her to believe that she is 100% Latino because our culture is rich and we celebrate it with food, with love, with family. And I am trying to pass on everything I know about our family to her. Right. I think it's important that she doesn't lose that, or she just becomes one of many. And the one thing my father told us, told me, even though he died, he died the year I finished law school at, from Notre Dame in 1990. So he died at the age of 48. So very young. We weren't thinking about legacies then, but he said, never forget where you come from. And blood is always thicker than water. And that's that family component, right? And so, you know, I, I think that is what has stuck with me. So, you know, when I had an opportunity to take in my sister's three kids at ages four or five and six. You just say, yes. Someone said, why did you do it? And I, and I laughed in my head. I didn't realize I had an option. Um, but I did it with love and care. Um, so I view that responsibility more as a blessing. And how blessed are we to still value our families to still value our fam familial stories. And that's what I think of all of the time. And it's really what I wanna spend whatever I have left, investing in our pro and the next generation so that they know they never forget. Never where we have come from, no matter where they end up.

Speaker 3 14:48

I adore what you've just said, and particularly I'm hanging on this idea of blessing this twin, a parallel of blessing and responsibility.

Speaker 4 14:58

Mm-hmm.

Music and Artistic Expression

Speaker 3 14:59

I think it. We, uh, took our forebearers to keep that in mind because what, the other thing I heard was you taught cultural history about the border that is now in contention for some. Um, and you reminded me of how magical it was when I found the, um, I guess the steerage notice of my mother's parents coming from Barbados. And it's just, it's, it's electric. Just'cause it's one piece of a chain of the jigsaw puzzle of who you are and how you are, how you come to be. I think that's very important. And one other thing I'd like to add, that you reminded me when my, when I was in doctoral work at NYU and my mother had passed, I realized that it was likely that my father wouldn't be there to see me graduate. So in essence, I did the reverse. I brought him to school. So he would have the story of what it looked like to see his son going to graduate school. And he went to classes with me and he really appreciated that. And he didn't see me, he didn't live to see me graduate, but that was important. I could cry, I gotta tell you. Uh, so I'm gonna try to keep from crying and go to Iora. Um, I'd like you to jump in now if you feel ready. We've heard a lot of different aspects of what it to be, to share and to be part of caregiving. One other thing I wanted to say too is I know my mother who had dementia music helped sometimes to Jo Humor to get stories. So stories are often told quietly or not at all. And sometimes you have to listen for the silences or the clues. How does being a creative person, how does artistic expression, particularly music, which is your metier, help preserve dignity and legacy when words alone fall short?

Speaker 7 17:00

Uh, I love this conversation. Um, yeah. Y'all, y'all, you not gonna get me crying. I cried today. So, but I, the way music, so in, in my profession, so my, my research agenda is to amplify, um, the stories, the figures, the pedagogies of African derived music with a specific focus on the oral transmission of black, sacred music. And with that being the case, I, I go back to the roots, I go back to the motherland, I go back to Africa, and I think about what they do there. Um, how did they live? How did they make it from one day to the next? And a lot of times it's community and music. There is music for everything in their social life for a newborn baby when they eat, when they fix food, when they go, when people ha pass away. Like there are songs for everything. And, but at the heart of all of that music is the drum. It's the pulse is like the car, it keeps the car going. And, but then you bring those, those kings and queens to the states, to South Carolina and they, they are introduced to this slave revolt, um, because they want to take away their instruments. But on top of that, they used body percussion. Um, that was their next piece of it, of an, of an instrument. And so the rhythm always resided in their body, even if they didn't have the tangible drum. And I think about how that became the bedrock of American music as well, the pulse. And with my work in Africa and gospel music, I have sat under my grandmother. I've sat under my, her sister, my, my Great Aunt Lottie, uh, my Grand Aunt Lottie, and then like even my Uncle Joe I in in church, the black church specifically. I learned from our culture bearers and my elders. I, I learned how, I learned how they sang, and I watched how the audience at the congregation responded when these psalm came on, because those words spoke to a moment that they lived or were living. And the thing about it was, it's such an innate thing and it's a way of communication. Like there are some times you don't have to say anything, but we can just feel each other. And that moment there are these codes and the spirit moves, uh, from heart to heart or for breast to breast, as they would say, but you can feel when the energy shifts. But it's because of those moments that you created together. It's like I told my students today about music culture of the world class. In certain cultures, we can, we can look at each other without saying a word, and we can laugh because we have built such a communication within the community where like, like non-verbal things really speak volumes. And so. But I've realized that it goes back even deeper with my family because I also was on gen gen, um, ancestry for quite some time as well, too. Traced himself back. Of course, my family, I was born in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Before then, they lived in Screven County, Georgia. But bef uh, but around the Screven County, Georgia time, some of my family moved to Youngtown, Ohio, and they were, they ran. And some also went to Detroit. But also before that, my family was in Barnwood, South Carolina and Burke County, Georgia, the whole sector there. So recently, and preserving these stories, um, as I'm, I'm the one in my family who asks all the questions that people don't wanna ask. Uh, because black families, I can't speak for any other family. We got a lot of secrets. Uh, and so, so I'm gonna ask who the real daddy is because my, my thing is, is I always tell people, I, I know these things happened about 70 years ago, and this is something you wanna go to the gray with. I hear you. But those stories that you don't pass down to mm-hmm.

Speaker 3 20:50

If you've seen the film Rock to Rock and Roll music all based ultimately on the, as a way to make sound, how many of Americans are very integral? We've always associated African Americans with the,

Speaker 4 21:29

basically

Speaker 3 21:30

quickly tracing a family black and white ancestry because it through a very rare song that sung when it through puberty and die. Very specific,

Speaker 4 21:52

getting the West

Speaker 3 21:55

equivalent, getting the West Side Ben, not just de just St. Joe. And find the people over like a 30 year period. And when they sang the song, when they figured it out and found somebody who was a descendant in the Charleston area and brought her back, why the people wanted her or somebody to come is they made groups, I'm gonna say 10 people. And every generation since Mafa, since the Middle passage, a a group sang what had happened so that the lineage of collective memory wasn't broken as it had been broken because of slavery. It's a beautiful film.

Speaker 7 22:40

I I love that. I'm gonna check that out. And, you know, it's so interesting because. I recently in, in my quest of putting my family narrative together, actually a couple weeks ago, I finally, um, had a zoom call with the family who enslaved my family. Uh, and, and they were from Ireland. Um, and they moved to Burke County. I was like, see, I went to Notre Dame for a reason. Do you have any idea? So, but the DNA doesn't lie. And so when it comes down to passing on this music, it lies in our body. And sometimes we don't always know. And I, I, yes, I know sometimes people are born with the musical ear and some are not. But I do believe, I'm a firm believer that there are certain traits that are passed down through DNA. Um, it could be that, and also just with the strength of the community, how those talents and those gifts are, are cultivated and strengthened. Uh, but yeah, so always say music tells stories that people don't always tell.

Speaker 3 23:33

So really quick as a sidebar, when, when you think about, when you're just learning to read and I could read my name and so. The faux pa was on a Christmas morning. I opened every present with my name in it. So the present that I gave theoretically to my mother that I had no idea what it was I opened because it had my name on it. So they made a rule that I could open mail if it had my name or the Barton family. So shortly thereafter, we get what is now we call spam in our email. Uh, a um, note from Claim Your Family Crest, meet your British relatives. My father's father was descendant of slaves in Tennessee, and my dad had left home at 16. I know his parents, he had a big family, but I hadn't met them. I said, dad, we can meet your people. And every day when he came home from work for about three weeks, you know, I'm, I'm maybe kindergarten or first grade dad. Let's write these people so we can meet your people. And he had to finally, he had to, you know, after like three weeks, he goes, they don't really wanna know who we're, we probably are related to them. But they don't really want, and he had to figure out, how am I gonna tell this five or 6-year-old boy that he has family that are by byproduct of the plantation system,

Speaker 4 24:48

you know?

Speaker 3 24:49

So it's very, I'm glad that you were able to reach out. I'm gonna tap back into, uh, Joanne and ask you, um, to build on what you said earlier, how do you think we can communicate the importance of storytelling? Because you made a very nice statement about your, um, granddaughter, I think it was, who you were raising to be Latino, um, in our families and our communities within the larger context of representation. Since you said you're raising this young woman to be fully Latina.

Speaker 2 25:22

Yeah.

Speaker 3 25:22

And how do we, how do we achieve that?

Speaker 2 25:25

I don't think there's one single way to do it, but I do think it's important that we celebrate our roots and celebrate a a, as Ada said earlier, our ancestors. And think about all they've had to do to get us to the places that we are. You know, when I think of those blessings, and I don't know about your families, no one ever envisioned that anyone in our entire family would be a college graduate, let alone a lawyer, let alone a general counsel. You know, those weren't even within their dreams. And so I wanna make sure that, that my family, my kids, their, their children really, really celebrate the idea of being, my dad would call it Chicano, because my dad was born in the sixties, right? Mm-hmm. So he was porta the race. And so I want them to feel it. I think you said this earlier, someone did that. There's this feeling in your heart, and we have to embed that within our kids. That's what I do. Uh, she's taking Spanish, and I'm not fluent, but I did live in Mexico. Sydney, and I learned it. But we speak Spanish together. I say, let's speak Spanish together. I don't cook, but I shared earlier, I wanna learn how to make tamales so that my granddaughter and I can make tamales together because my mother's, you know, the people that used to do the big family gatherings making dozens of tamales together are all deceased. So I need to, I think what we have to do, maybe this is the essence, is we have to bring it back to life. We can't let it die and share that, but also sharing it with all of the youth in the local high schools, in the communities that we serve. Because I think that's also really important. It's easy to forget or pretend or not honor our ancestors for whatever reasons. We have to take the good, the bad, and the ugly and celebrate it all together and be proud of it. I mean, I, I shared this, when I speak, I tell everyone about who my family was and the sense of pride that I was built with, but also the fact that he was a, an alcoholic. And that's okay. There is no shame in this because all of his trials and tribulations, I'm the woman I am today. And so that's what I wanna make sure my grandchildren know, and that's what I'm instilling in my granddaughter. But the last part that I think is really important is I put myself onto committees, onto things where I am. Well, most of us are probably the first and only in lots of places, but I intentionally do it so that we, our voices are not forgotten. Mm.

Speaker 4 28:23

And

Speaker 2 28:23

my one example is that I joined this Smithsonian. The Women's Smithsonian is gonna open in the next few, probably next five to 10 years. And so they had a Michigan delegation come together and someone said, why did you join the, you know, the committee and why did you donate? I said, because my family helped build this country. And I want my granddaughter, when we walk into that Smithsonian, to see people that look like her.

Speaker 4 28:55

Hmm.

Speaker 2 28:56

Because that helps continue and to enforce the, the reality that who we are is important and that can never be lost.

Genealogy of the Pope: Uncovering Hidden Histories

Speaker 3 29:10

That's beautiful. Okay. I wanna reinforce and sit with something you said for those who don't know what you were talking about. It's called a tamalada. And there's something akin to a tamalada in every culture, whether we're talking about Chinese bao. Or um, uh, nichi or ravioli in Italy, there's always something in the kitchen that is, uh, fine work, usually done by women or girls. That is done as a group that is done in mass. So you're making a hundred or a thousand pieces pastels for the past, the Puerto Ricans in Christmas time. And so you don't do it by yourself, you gather all of the women, sadly guys in the Mexican version, we would be roasting a pig underground and be drunk and not, and have silly stories. But these women come together and leave. We have a shared meal who all the family who've come, but then everybody gets to take some home and they catch each other up on birth, death, marriages, gossip, et cetera. So it begins this cycle, intergenerationally of storytelling. Young boys usually are at that table too, until such time as the parents or grand fathers or grandfathers think he needs to be kind of made into a man. So take him away from this woman centered place. It's a whole nother story we could get into, but these simple acts, knitting similar, you know, that people do historically seen as women's work are a, so to speak, an open secret about bringing stories out within community. And I encourage everyone to think of where that sits in your culture. It could be a round singing or caroling for IOR and his people. Um, going back to Zeta and this idea of storytelling as a centrality within indigenous culture in this nation, I think globally, how can storytelling serve as both a caregiving. A way to ensure cultural and family legacy is not lost. I just wanna say one last thing before I turn it to you. You all might have seen on King Day that Jimmy Fallon had Henry Lewis Gates because Henry Gates was asked to make the genealogy for the Pope that we know has black blood. And one of the things that he ended up getting 12 generations back over 500 years of history of, of Pope Leo and I, and the two things he said Leo asked is, did he have Haitian blood? Which is interesting because that could mean that he's got Catholicism and voodoo. But of the Africans were there slave owners. And yes, he had African heritage that were slave owners that complicates how he is who he's, so these, these acts of finding out who you are, are revelatory and open up a whole fs of knowledge that may have not been known before. So data. Storytelling, storytelling as a cultural and familial legacy. How do we maintain it?

The Importance of Oral Tradition in African and Indigenous Histories

Speaker 6 32:25

Oh, gosh. That's, that's a big question. Um, I'll take a stab on it and I'll use an example kind of close to home. Um, well, very close to home for many of us. So, uh, three years ago, I, I work as a historian and my job is to, to find, find the documents and the stories that our ancestors left behind for us to find, and then to write new stories, um, to leave behind for our descendants. So three years ago I was working on my doctorate, hoping to get a job in the academic job market, uh, which as many of you on the call know, is no small feat. Um, when someone from Notre Dame reached out and asked if I'd be interested in conducting, in their words, an inquiry into Notre Dame's history with native peoples starting before the university's founding and continuing to the present day. And so as someone who went to Notre Dame as an undergrad, who is Po Hagan, who grew up hearing oral histories of our tribe's relationship with the university, this was my dream job. Um, and so for nine months our work was spent, half my time was spent working in the archives with our partners at Hesberg Libraries, and the other half of my time was spent going out into the community sharing what we found to make sure that those stories don't just stay in the archives, but that they actually made their way out into the community. Um, we had three goals for the project. Uh, number one, be honest, what could we know? What couldn't we know? What do we wanna know and we couldn't about the indigenous history of Notre Dame. The second was to be a good relative to bring the community into the work that we were doing. Way. And the last goal was to be mindful of the future. So we knew our grant would only last for nine months. We wanted to make sure that the work continued long after. And so I'll give you one of our findings from that inquiry because it's too good of a story not to share. Um, so of those, those of you who have been on campus probably know about the log chapel, well you don't probably know, is there's a monument next to the log chapel called the Founder's Plaque. Next time you're on campus, I encourage you to find this monument. It's based on a letter that Father Soren wrote less than two weeks after Notre Dame was founded in 1842. In that letter, he writes that he hopes that his college will become a force for good and that his college cannot fail to succeed. So if those quote quotes are ringing a bell, that's where the monument is inspired by that letter. What we found when you compare the text of the monument with the text of the letter are two very different stories of Notre Dame's founding in the monument. Father Soren writes. This college, um, is located on a beautiful Notre Dame. Notre Dame de lock. Do It is from here that I write you now, but in the letter, there are no.dot dots in the letter Father Soren wrote. Um, and besides this college is the center of the Indian Mission. In that letter, father Sorn wrote about the pot autotomy 10 times in the founder's plaque, which is a monument on campus, not next to the log chapel. There's no mention of the Potawatomi at all. Hmm. That was one of the many stories that we found in our inquiry. Um, and a lot of our work was about, um, no, we knew that there was always, and always has been an indigenous history of Notre Dame, whether we realize it or not, it's not about a racing history. It's about finding it, finding these stories that have sometimes been written out, sometimes forgotten, um, but make up the, the history that we of the university we all know and love. And so part of our goal was to care for the university by preserving its legacy in the form of remembering its indigenous history. Um, so I, I could go on all day about the work that we've done and we hope to do in the future, um, but that, that project is near and dear to my heart and it, it rethink, it reshapes a lot of what we think we know about a place that all of us love so much and hold so dear.

Speaker 3 36:14

Wow. Thank you. You know, I just have to put a plug in one of my dearest friends who's a US citizen living in and from Mica living and working in Brazil for over 30 years on African descendant religions. And this is a prefe preface to the one of my last questions that's gonna go to you and Moria, because you talked about open secrets on, and Lisa does Lisa Earl Castillo does what? David? She looks at oral tradition. Because that's what a lot of African and indigenous, um, his cultural history is based on and sits and gets the stories from the community, then goes to the archive and looks at all sorts of records and brings them back together to the community and fills in the gaps like she just did. And it's a very good method that then also as a sidebar, people who weren't interested in that written history, that in many cases, in her case, for example, it's the colonial history. It's the white person's history. It's not the black person's history, but now they wanna look at it and their younger generations were going to college, wanna get that information and do the same, um, melding of orality with the written archive. And they, and it also, it's a kind of a seed to the next generation to find a way they can plug in as, as Zeta nicely framed the work she did on campus. I mean, I wanna keep doing this, but I'm gonna begin to close down the engine. And,

Speaker 9 37:54

wait. Stop, stop. Scott, before you close down the engine, we skipped a question number five that was to dawn about, uh, and where Dawn was gonna talk about another black and mentoring. So if it's okay, can we, will you kind of transit us back to that, into that question and then we'll wrap up with

Speaker 3 38:13

Zaja. Okay. Zeda, Zeda, that was a beautiful statement and historical project and historical context and historical legacy is very germane to all of us. Don, I know that you've worked with a, a legacy organization that exists in many cities and regions in this country. The hundred black men are the hundred black women. And so in relation to those institutions that you, I think have been a part of, from that perspective as an elder. As a responsible caregiver, um, as maybe a member of an institution that has community roots. Um, can you give us, uh, your perspective on respons the responsibility, care responsibilities that caregivers have to protect, not just physical wellbeing, but history, memory, truth within black families and within the institutions that black people have been a part of. Because we know, for example, that the women's clubs and things like the hundred black men have been going on for a long time. Often in the shadows from the larger, uh, information, in the public comments, but within our own community, sometimes it's known but not, uh, disseminated widely. You're muted. You're muted. You're muted.

Speaker 5 39:39

Yes. Hello. Can you, hi. Yes, I wanna make two points. One, having to do with, uh, those community organizations I worked with, uh, from the time I became involved after my retirement in 2014. I have striven to interest kids in talking to the elders in their own families and, and frankly, pulling out that telephone that seems to be ubiquitous nowadays and recording the statements of their grandparents and their parents and, and keeping those as documents because, uh, um, someday those people will be gone and unavailable to us. And so that's, um, that's one thing. The other thing, and this is a point of personal privilege, I, um. I did Black Domers with David Kna back in 2014. Um, uh, recording stories from, uh, the children, black children of my other mother, the Blessed Virgin at Notre Dame, uh, um, game. And, and, uh, I'm proud of that. More recently, I, I've written a book, uh, before the byline. It's my personal story and my family's story, uh, about moving from the south to the north and, um, and my, my, my matriculation to Notre Dame and discovery of my vocation in journalism. But, uh, there's one thing that I, I, I wanna take a second just to read one paragraph. And this goes to the issue of storytelling. It reads for black people. The stories we tell ourselves and our children about race and racism are part of our cultural care capital resources necessary for survival in the world. One would no more allow one's child to leave home and venture into the world without such capital, and one would send him or her out on a subfreezing day without a proper coat. Those stories are useful history. They can help our young avoid trouble or cope with it. When it inevitably comes, they can also propel them to greater achievement. That's, that's the, the conviction I carry through life and what I try to communicate to my sons and my nephews and nieces and grandchild now. And, uh, um, uh, that's all.

The Power of Music in Caregiving and Memory

Speaker 3 42:40

Hmm. Okay. You almost made me burst into tears because one month and 20 years ago, on the shortest day of the year, my mother joined the ancestors. Mm-hmm. And the week that she found the anniversary of her passing this year, I was dying to hear her voice. And maybe half a dozen cell phones ago, I had a message that I used to pay for about a year, and then that cell phone died and I Googled her on,'cause she had some public presence. I couldn't find it. But I was really, it really got me jacked because I really wanted to hear her voice. I really was, really wanted to hear my mother's voice. And you took me back there to that failed attempt. Maybe it'll come another way. Yeah. But that, I thank you for what you just said. And I, I can't reiterate, we have, um, so many, sorry to go this way, but strong black women who have run clubs who. Been unsung leaders and heroes often in these institutions. So upholding these institutions is very important, and I'm sure that I could say, I know I could say the same within Latina communities and within indigenous communities. So that your statement about institutions is very, very important for us all. So I'm gonna begin to wind down and, and turn to you Acha, and come back to this questions and in, in interrogation, if you'll about music as an intersection of memory, our lived experiences as black people, or it's all people who carry their music. You know, I always say to my students, there's invisible, invisible luggage. We all carry that. We have to ask what it is. It's our prayers, it's our song, it's our food, it's our dances. We all carry it. But unless and until we ask and inquire, we don't know what that is. Unless and until we display how we sing our songs and dance our dances, somebody else doesn't know what it's, what they're so in. In that spirit, how have you seen music function as a form of caregiving iia, especially in moments of personal, individual community or generational grief transition and honoring of one's elders?

Speaker 45:09

You're on mute. You're on mute. But when you had them in your ears, we could hear you for some reason.

Speaker 4 45:16

We can hear.

Speaker 5 45:24

We can hear you

Speaker 4 45:29

say some. I hear you. Yeah,

Speaker 3 45:41

sure. You work within composition and performance of music, and so I wanna lean into your expertise and look at the intersection that includes the coming together of music memory and the lived experience of black people. Can you take us to how you see music functioning as a form of caregiving, particularly in hard times, moments of individual, familial or generational grief, life transitions, or honoring of one's elders? Where and how does music play a role in your mind?

Speaker 7 46:25

So one thing that I notice. Um, there is this phrase, uh, in a book I have called the Power Black Music, where it says, music drives the memory and memory drives the music. What does that mean? Um, in, in community, we spend time with one another. Uh, we share stories, we dance, we cry. I think about the, the black church specifically during, uh, the time we have a celebration of life. You see a lot of emotions at play during those moments. Um, some are angry, some are sad, uh, but the service, the service offers an array of this emo of an emotional rollercoaster. We can shout and cry at the same time where our feet are testifying, but yet our tears are the representation of something that is we're experiencing, which is a very mournful experience. Um, and then those tears can also represent the joys that we've had as well too. So dancing. Um, sharing those moments together are, are indicative of our complications with life, of what's happening in the moment. But it's also a moment of affirmation as well. Um,'cause in those moments we are affirming our humanity. We are affirming who we're and what, and the, and the things that we bring to the table. We bring those family stories to those moments where we are sad to give us a little bit of joy whenever there is some sadness. But the beautiful thing about that community and those moments are that we don't cry alone. Uh, we don't dance alone because it's something that reminds us that there's always an ancestor that's watching over us, while our elders are still there with us. Mm-hmm. Locking arms. So I, as I've gotten older, I, I look at these moments differently than I did. As a kid, because a lot of times as kids, we just see it happening and we, we join in. But when you start living life and you start sharing those stories, and you, and you, you listen to what your elders are telling you, and you go to these moments and you see where they weep, not because of um, not because of they're just in a, in a moment where they're remembering this moment that they no longer have. But it's, it's a lot. Um, there, there's a lot of emotional landscape there. There's a long and large emotional landscape that's at play at that moment. So, uh, and those, I say keep dancing, uh, yeah, keep, keep doing the line dances, keep doing the chacha slide, keep doing, uh, the C shuffle because that speaks to our culture and our feet are always moving somewhere.

Final Thoughts on Caregiving with Dignity

Speaker 3 49:15

Wow, you. That's beautiful. So I have two things to say to what as we're joined her. One that's kind of funny. I have a good friend, Morris in New York City. His sister-in-law got early onset dementia and one of the things that was manifest was that she used to beat her husband up after a very happy marriage unless and until he played Teddy pender. And then she would calm down and some music had a, had a role. But on a serious note, I wanna say one thing that we really haven't touched that I think you're both explicitly and implicitly talking to as a caregiver of both of my parents with my dad's help, when my mother passed, she predeceased him. And then predominantly, even though I have a brother of my father, my father, um, two things that, um, I wanna note, one, my father ended up dying. My mother is born on April 8th. My brother is born on April 11th. And as I realized that my dad was dying, it's a longer story, um, I kept praying that he wouldn't die on my brother's birthday. They had a difficult relationship. He died on my mother's birthday and I thought, oh, if, if this had been reversed, it would be horrible. But this is the best present that somebody could have that if there is whatever he came in. But I say it because I had a lot on my shoulders as the caregiver. And when you say we have to keep on dancing, one of the things we have to remember when we are the caregivers, at one point our elders may be what my, a former partner of mine called a passenger. They're there in certain ways, but they need a lot of assistance. And if the caregiver falls down, the passenger cannot go forward. And so we have to remember in all of this work we're talking about and honoring our elders and keeping the stories, if we are in the role of Don's sister, taking care of elder aging parents, she needs support. From her family, her spouse, her children. She needs a day off. She needs to dance to abandon, um, for a moment because that's can be destructive for everybody because if she breaks down, everything falls apart. Oh, okay. To get back to a, a little happier part, let's bring it down. Um, I really could go on through the night with you all. This has been so cathartic for me and it's such a touchstone. So as we get ready to leave, I wonder if each of you would share from your perspective, your heart, your mind, your memory, your memory, your family, a takeaway you'd like to share with us and with the audience. When caregiving feels heavy or overwhelming, what helps you remember as, uh, Joanne said before, blessing and responsibility, that this work is also about love, legacy, and connection. Not just survival so you can get that person to the next day when work gets hard and seems too hard and daunting. What do you do and how would you provide, um, suggestions or, uh, advice to someone who's starting this journey

Speaker 4 52:47

who'd like to begin?

Speaker 7 53:02

Sometimes you, you show care to people and you think that they'll respond the way you intend them to respond. They may not always say thank you when you want to, when you want them to. Rather, they, they may not always affirm you in the beginning, like anything. Just as kids, we didn't know that what our parents were doing required as much work as it did until we became the adults. Every seed has to be watered. It takes work, but when you see how the food of that labor actually unfolds, it makes you appreciated more. So all of that to say keep watering, keep giving, I promise you they see it. Um, but sometimes, although they may not say thank you in the way that we want them to say thank you. They're probably thanking you in your own, in their own way, but you just haven't found what that is yet.'cause it looks different from what the regular thank you looks and sounds like. Um, always remember what the heart posture is, why you do it in the first place, and keep, mm, remember your heart posture. But on top of that, just leave with your heart.

Speaker 3 54:35

Thank you for that. I, I heard a news magazine today about dealing with, uh, split families and stepparents and talking to children forthrightly honestly, and not pulling punches. And I think it's the same when we talk about caregiving, because so many times you are doing something on the behalf of an elder who has needs, but you're not including them and they can get anxious. Sometimes I know in my own experience I had to make agreements with my father who was gonna be the good cop and the bad cop because sometimes you had to give bad news and he generally decided he'll be the bad cop.'cause he knew I needed to maintain a different, um, relationship.'cause I was also struggling with my, you know, working a job. And if I was in an adversarial relationship with my mother in her declining years, it could make it even more tense. Um, and so there's a lot of negotiation that has to happen that often is without recompense, without the regular behavioral courtesies we're expecting, um, in different scenarios. So I think what you just said is very, very relevant. Thank you.

Speaker 2 56:00

I think I'll just add, um. To make, I think you said this already, but we have to take care of ourselves, so taking that step away will make us better and, and definitely more patient because the reality is, I think many of us have to accept, not that it's a responsibility. I do believe it's a blessing that we have family because there are people on this earth who do not and are not close to them. And so I think it just helps us approach them with the care that we really wanna give them. And I think you just have to take your time out for a second and breathe. Make sure you're sleeping enough, make sure you're eating enough, make sure you're taking care of yourself. Otherwise, it is very difficult to go in or human. This is selfless. This is selfless love. Right? Completely selfless. And there's no other way to care for ourself because I think many of them never say thank you. Many of them. It doesn't mean they're not grateful.

Speaker 4 57:10

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 57:10

I just think that they're going, they're on their own, they're on a different journey. And so we have to just respect that and know that this is selfless and take care of ourselves. Um, and then remember all that they've done for us. I think it's that familial bond that you can't forget and whether your blood family, whether these are your godparents, whomever they are, because I know in the Latino culture, everybody's a cousin, everybody's a family. You know, if you grew up, you probably ate in my mother's house, you know, when she was a kid. And so they're all my primos. They're all my cousins. Um, even though we have no blood relation, so, but you're taking care of everyone. So keep, just remember we're family.

Speaker 4 57:59

Yeah, that's so true. Thank you.

Speaker 6 58:07

Okay. Um, I'll add two thoughts. Um, number one, caregiving happens in both the good times and the bad. Um, I think it's easy to fixate on caregiving happening at end of life or in the really tough times when it's, it's difficult to get through. But caregiving happens during the good times too when we're gathered around telling stories, not, not, not thinking about the bad times to come, but, but appreciating the times that we have together. Um, the other thing I'll add is I, I encourage you to think about how many people are caring for you, both people that you don't, don't know, and people that you know. Um, to give you some examples, um, I'm sitting in a building that I did not build, but someone built it for me without knowing that I would be here, um, using it today. Um, someone is powering the lights that make this, this room glow so I can have a conversation. Someone designed the technology that brings us together across places, spaces, times, moments. Um, so there's a lot of caregiving happening, both that we can see and experience ourselves, but I think a lot of caregiving that we take for granted just because we, we can't always see it with our eyes. Um, so taking those moments, finding that, that those sources of gratitude and remembering that we're all in this together. Um, let, let's make

Speaker 3 59:26

it good.

Speaker 6 59:26

And

Speaker 3 59:26

that is so true. I just have to say two, I think two years after my mother passed, my dad turned 88 and I told my brother, let's make a party for him. And he agreed to. He kept saying, why are we doing this? I said, he's healthy, he's sentient. I appreciate, and we didn't know, but two years later he was gone. So it was a really momentous and magical party because we, in, as you say, a happy, do you have anything you'd like to add?

Speaker 5 1:00:06

I, I would just, I would just mention, I, I, I know it's, I know caregiving is a blessing and all that, but I look at my dad, actually, both of my parents and, uh, um, the sense of, of responsibility that they exhibited for all of us sat, the sacrifices they made, uh, they just, they lead me in awe. And I, I feel do de bound to measure up to that, to be worthy of that. And so that's,

Speaker 3 1:00:47

yeah, it's very interesting. That's the extent that, because when my dad was really on his last days, I learned that he expected to be cared for that in his way of seeing the world. And I took the bait. And so that was all right. And as Amor just said, he didn't really thank me in his last phase as an accident. There was some tension at times. He loved martinis. And as an 18-year-old, he taught me how a very particular way he wanted them. And about two weeks, 10 days before he died, he asked me to make a martini. Had to eat anything for eight weeks. That's the story. And he loved the martinis, then slept for four to eight hours and we had fam some family there. A week later, he was really at the end I said, can I have another martini? And I made it for him. He started crying. He goes, I'm too weak to drink it. I'm really sorry, and I didn't wanna put you out. And that was his saying, thank you, that after the two months of trying to get him to eat something, it's a longer story. That was where he was saying, I appreciate what you've done for me and you understood the responsibility or the, the cycle of life that we give to each other and help each other. Um, in fewer words that I'm using right now, I'm really, really having trouble not crying. Okay. Um, so I wanna thank each and every one of you for taking time to share your heart, your memories, your expertise, your personal stories, and this invaluable advice that I think will carry all of us through. Happy times and difficult times of caregiving. I think, I believe I know the insights that we have shared today with each other and with the audience are enlightening, empowering, and offer very practical guidance on how every one of us can better navigate the complex responsibilities that come with caregiving. And I wanna just reiterate what Joanne said. Sometimes we have somebody who has a substance abuse problem, but still needs caregiving. And we have to see our ability to love them because in despite, uh, to everyone joining us, we hope you felt more equipped to handle the challenges of caregiving from managing finances and legal manners to understanding the emotional and cultural complexities that can arise. And just to stay there for a second, this tender place of caregiving. When people are aging, that can be a lot of financial issues that need to be attended to. That could be a whole nother discourse. The road may not always be easy for anyone on that road, neither you or the person you're caring for, but please remember that you're not alone. As, as Zeta said, there are seen and unseen help mates that you have that you need to turn to as the best that you can. Whether they're spiritual advisement or real palpable people, whether it's through professional resources, community support, other family members, find the help you need as you can to wrap up today's session, I encourage you, we encourage you to take the advice and strategies that have been discussed here and reflect on how they can be applied to your own caregiving journey. Everyone has some overlap, but may have individual unique experiences. Require specific, um, remedies and opportunities. Whether you are a current care caregiver, planning for the future, or supporting others, the most important thing is to ensure that you're taking care of yourself as well as has been reiterated, self-care is essential in this process, and you deserve to show up for your loved ones and for yourself with dignity and compassion. I wanna thank everyone who helped to do the production of this so this could come to fruition. Thank you all for being a part of this very important conversation. We hope you leave today with new tools, a deeper understanding, and a renewed sense of support as you continue this journey to check out. Please, if you can, when you can other episodes from the Caregiving with Dignity series, visit us at ThinkND dot edu. Take care and remember, caregiving. Begins with caring for deserve.