Revolutions of Hope, Part 6: What We Can Learn from Ukraine's Fight for Democracy

Episode Topic: What We Can Learn from Ukraine's Fight for Democracy (https://go.nd.edu/241c49)

Historian Olesya Khromeychuk challenges us to view democracy not as a static inheritance, but as a grueling “learning curve” forged in resistance. Centering on the concept of “hope as an emergency tool,” Khromeychuk reveals how Ukraine’s “hopeless hope” offers a strategic blueprint for collective survival and democratic perseverance in an increasingly uncertain global order.

Featured Speakers:

• Clemens Sedmak, Director of the Nanovic Institute for European Studies, University of Notre Dame
• Michael Pippenger, Vice President & Associate Provost for Internationalization, University of Notre Dame
• Olesya Khromeychuk, Director of the Ukrainian Institute, London 

Read this episode's recap over on the University of Notre Dame's open online learning community platform, ThinkND: https://go.nd.edu/41fffa.

This podcast is a part of the ThinkND Series titled Revolutions of Hope. (https://go.nd.edu/85a132)

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Transcript

Introduction and Welcome

1 0:10

My name is Clemens and I serve as director of the Vic Institute for European Studies. I hope that you had a good day so far and that you could enjoy the morning sessions. What can we learn from Ukraine's Fight for Democracy? This is the theme of our plenary session. The question is one of many questions that express our humble belief that there is so much to learn from Ukraine, from the Ukrainians, from the Ukrainian Catholic University. Freedom is not free. Democracy is not a given dignity. Even if sacred and untouchable can be violated, hope is precious. And as we have heard from Archbishop Boris yesterday, there are so many sources of hope to be found in the everyday life and struggle of Ukrainians. We are about to experience a conversation between Esia Chu, director of the Ukrainian Institute, London, and Michael Pippinger, vice President for internationalization here in Notre Dame. Esia is a historian and writer. She has lectured at the UK Ukraine Catholic University in La Aviv, and many other universities is the author of many publications, including the very moving book, the Death of a Soldier, told by his sister in 2022. Her writing has appeared in the New York Times, the New York review of books, the Guardian and the, in February, 2024, she delivered a widely and enthusiastically received TED Talk entitled, what The World Can Learn From Ukraine's Fight for Democracy. It's an honor for us that you're here. Thank you and. Dr. Michael Pippinger serves as Vice President and Associate Provost for internationalization at Notre Dame, leading the university's global strategy and overseeing its international operations. He manages Notre Dame Global, which includes 12 global locations. We do not have yet a global location in Ukraine, but as I mentioned yesterday, Michael Pippinger is really committed to the cause of Ukraine. He has traveled to Ukraine in the fall. He has been leading the major partnership initiative between Notre Dame and KU on behalf of our university starting after the full scale invasion in spring 2022. We're grateful for your leadership and solidarity with Ukraine. Thank you for being with us. Dear Michael, this conversation has been generously supported by Notre Dame's Democracy Initiative in Notre Dame Global. What will happen in the next, uh, 56 minutes? Will give a short talk. After that, Michael Pippinger will engage her in a conversation. We'll end at 1145. Then we'll transition into lunch. Dear Ores, dear Michael, thank you so much.

Speaker 2 3:07

Good morning. Thank you very much to all of you present here, for being here. Thank you, all of you who are tuning in online as well, and thank you for giving me this platform. It's a great honor.

Pandora's Box and the Dual Nature of Hope

Speaker 2 3:20

Is hope, a blessing, or a curse? Pandora as described in Hess's ancient Greek poem, was the first human woman she was gifted with curiosity and a box that she was forbidden to open a rather cruel combination of gifts, infamous, forgiven into temptation. She opened the container that was meant to remain sealed, thereby unleashing every imaginable curse upon the world. For this, Pandora has been vilified for eternity, a lasting warning against the dangers of curiosity, especially when practiced by women. But this one detail of the myth, which is often overlooked. One thing remained trapped inside the box. After all the evils had escaped and it was hope. Was this an act of mercy to leave humanity, a hidden source of resilience? Or did Pandora by not letting it escape, manage to spare us the final curse? Elpi was the name of the remaining item in Pandora's Box, and it can be translated from Ancient Greek as hope or as expectation. Perhaps this ambiguous interpretation can speak to the dual nature of hope as both a blessing and a curse if hope can give us fuel to keep going. Poorly managed expectations can set us back disheartened and disappoint. While ancient Greeks were cautious about Elvis's ambiguity, the Romans turned out to be more hopeful. They worshiped the Goddess of Hope, Elvis's Latin equivalent known sp. I got to know her Latin name at a very young age, indirectly. The first Latin phrase I learned as a child was contrast sero against all hope. I hope a little gloomy for a kid, I admit. But I was born in a period that was a bit gloomy, gloomy and hopeful. My childhood coincided with the childhood of my country in 1991 when Ukraine was reborn as a sovereign state, I was seven. In 2004 when the orange revolution happened, I turned 21. We came of age at the same time, my country and I, and gradually matured together, making our mistakes, enjoying our victories, grieving our losses, and hoping against all hope. Contrast, which was responsible for my first encounter with The Goddess of Hope, is the title of a poem by Larissa Sage, better known by her pen named Les. And you heard some of it recited by Rory Finon last night. Born in 1871 in the part of Ukraine, ruled by the Russian Empire, RA's writing and civic position. Her very pen name means Ukrainian woman contributed vastly to undoing the effects of imperial oppression on the Ukrainian people. Oka, however, did not live to see the empire fall. When she died in 1913, her coffin was carried by women only. Underscoring her legacy for the Ms. Atory movement, and the procession was filled with those who supported has civic ideals, but the cest authorities permitted no speeches at the funeral. Fearing unrest, the police trailed the mourners on horseback. The Soviets also feared the power of Ukraine's writing awkwardly trying to co-opt her struggle for Ukraine's freedom for their own agenda. A defiant and curious woman is dangerous, even in death. Contrast with his regular rhyme was an easy poem for a child to remember. Here are the first two verses. Away dark thoughts. Your autumn skies springtime is here a dawn with gold? Shall youth be lost in grieving size? Am I in sorrow to grow old? No. Through my tears, I want to smile Amid disasters sing my song. It's hopeless hope, but it's mine. I want to live. Dark Thoughts be gone. I took some liberties with my translation of these verses, namely translating against All Hope. I want to hope as is hopeless hope, but it is mine. The choice is partly driven by my wish to give you the taste of Ukraine's hypnotic rhyme, but also by my desire to give you a sense of the variety of hope that in my view, has sustained Ukrainians through generations. As a historian and a scholar who is meant to rely on empirical evidence, I might struggle to explain Ukraine's independence. To between empires, subjugated and oppressed, even the most hopeful of nations would struggle not only to survive, but to thrive. But as someone who grew up watching history out of my window, I have no problem explaining Ukraine's independence. I grew up in an old tenement building in the heart of Aviv. In the 1980s and nineties, the view from my window overlooked a kitchy Soviet fountain with disco lights. Many years later, I learned that it had been a place where aqua, a Jewish ritual bath once stood, which explained the name of my street was never Bath Street. But when I sat on my window sill to watch the country's history pass by the knowledge of my local history, that of one's thriving Jewish Orthodox district was buried deeper than the water pipes that had once supplied the ritual Jewish bath and were now being used for the Soviet fountain. Another thing I saw very clearly out of my window was a hotel called iv, an ugly thing made of concrete. The two buildings, a beautiful Austro-Hungarian tenement with its large apartments divided into small flats, one of which was occupied by my family. And a concrete Soviet monstrosity across the road stood on parallel streets and existed in parallel worlds. They were separated by a space of destruction and oblivion. The space where the old mewa was turned into a new fountain. From the parallel world inhabited by my family. I watched the official world whose existence we were meant to believe in, but in which we had no faith. When during Victory Day parades, the tanks rolled past the Soviet Hotel and onto Lenin Avenue, the central street of Aviv. I cautiously watched them from the safety of our living room. My family did not join the parades. Did they hope that their quiet resistance would lead to the collapse of the USSR? I'm not sure. What I do know is that it was their way to practice freedom in a society largely devoid of it. We did march along that street, but it was in the early 1990s when red banners made way for the blue and yellow standard, and the central street that used to be named at the Lenin was renamed Ada Avenue Soda and Ukrainian means freedom. That was the time when I watched my parents alongside other fellow Ukrainians, beginning to practice their freedom not as descent, but as citizenship. One such display of freedom in action is firmly etched in my memory. Um, it was on the 21st of January, 1990. Ukraine was not yet independent.

The Power of Unity and Collective Hope

Speaker 2 11:26

Millions of citizens without yet having a state took to the streets to form a human chain. It was to mark the historic signing of the Unification Act, which took place seven decades prior in January, 1919, and which signified the merging of Western and Ukrainian lands into one polity in the 1990s. This demonstration of unity was as much attribute to the past as an expression of hope for the future. I remember that human chain on a physical level. I contributed the warmth of my hands to the energy that traveled not only in space, but also in time it United Generations who planted the seeds knowing they wouldn't live to enjoy the harvest with those who cared for the delicate chutes and sustained them with their hopeless hope. Whether as citizens, there will be a state. On the 24th of August, 1991, the Parliament proclaimed the independence of Ukraine. A few months later, on the 1st of December, 1991, the citizens were asked to confirm their support for the Declaration of Independence. In the referendum, the turnout was 84%, over 90% of the 30 million who voted said yes. This was a moment when I added a Greek word to my one Latin phrase, Deia people power. I wasn't the only one learning the meaning of this word. The whole country had to learn it as it began to live it on this learning curve, it was El the ambiguous Greek goddess of hope who made an appearance more than once. What had been hoped for independence stand into an expectation of democracy. And with it freedom, prosperity, and security, all of them regularly slipped away. And when they did, just as in the 1990s people took to the streets, the energy I felt in the human chain as a child fled brightly again in 2004 during the Orange Revolution, and erupted into a real fire in 2014 with the revolution of dignity. So much so that the neighboring auto Tia, another useful Greek word, began to worry that it might be set ablaze by it. The same energy was there in January, 2022 when people across Ukraine held hands again to mark the day of unity while that country was encircled by Russian troops. That same energy has sustained us through the darkness of the full scale war. Ukraine's independence spr out from a hopeless hope, but it is a potent kind of hope, the kind that gives you the wisdom to plant your seeds with faith and love. Even where there's no certainty of ever reaping the fruits of your toil, but uncertainty is the space of hopes. As Rebecca Sonet in her, hope in the darkness, I'll quote to hope is to gamble. It's to bet on the future, on your desires, on the possibility that an open heart, open and uncertainty is better than gloom and safety to hope is dangerous. Yet it's the opposite of fear for to live is to take risks. Explain what gives you hope. Maria Marin and Australian Ukrainian Jewish writer asked Alexandra Machu a Ukrainian human rights lawyer and Nobel Peace Prize Laureate in the recent interview for the London Ukrainian Review. She continued. I'll quote, I see you speaking every day and really doing this work that might sometimes feel utterly despair, inducing, and I think maybe of your brand of hope, as hope without optimism, where you may be profoundly pessimistic about institutions or the current balance of power or the decision makers, et cetera. But nonetheless, you act outta a place of hope because you love justice and because you believe in it. And of Alexandra Machu responded that what resonated with her with was VAs love, Havel's vision of hope. Hope is not a conviction that everything will turn out fine, but the certainty that everything you do has a meaning. That's what she explained. She admitted, and I'll quote that while we have a chance of succeeding, there is no guarantee. This means that we have to do everything in our power to make the most out of the chance that we have. Is pessimistic hope Mat is a cautious hope, and I think they make very good sisters for my hopeless hope. Rebecca Sonet also describes hope as an ax, you break down doors with, in an emergency, an ax you break down doors with in an emergency. It is an an image that speaks to the Ukrainian experience, and maybe this idea of hope as an emergency tool makes it neither a blessing nor a curse. And perhaps it makes sense for it to remain in Pandora's box, and maybe it is curiosity that can serve as a key to that box. Curiosity for the future that is uncertain, but in its uncertainty, full of hope. I finished writing this text on LE's birthday on the 25th of February. The world she was born into in 1871 could not even imagine, let alone hope for an independent Ukraine. But this Ukrainian woman created that world in her dramas, poems, and breathed her hopeless hope into it. Contra her birthday happens to be the day after the day when we now mark the anniversary of Russia's full scale invasion. And especially on such days, it is to her writing that I turn when I need to replenish my hope so I shall leave you with her line. That is the ultimate source of hope for me when it comes to Ukraine's ability to weather any storms now or in its uncertain future. Those who have not lived amidst the storm. Do not know the value of strength. Let these words be a source of hope for you to. Thank you.

Speaker 3 18:13

Alexia, thank you very much again for coming to the University of Notre Dame. Thank you for your thoughtful and challenging, and inspiring words. As

Q&A

Speaker 3 18:24

Clemens mentioned, we'll have a conversation for the next 15 to 20 minutes, and then we'll open it up for, uh, everyone here together to be involved in that conversation as well. I wanted to start with, something that I noticed in your memories of childhood and young adulthood, which is this notion of someone having hope individually versus a collective hope.

Speaker 4 18:50

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3 18:51

You were watching history go by, you knew that change was happening. Did you feel a sense of hope in your parents? Did you see a sense of hope on the street during the revolution when you were 21? Can you talk a little bit about that interplay between an individual's hope and a community's hope, a family's hope, a nation's hope, a burgeoning nation's hope?

Speaker 2 19:18

That's an excellent question. Thank you so much for making me think about it. So, when I was asked to write that Ted talk about lessons from Ukraine about democracy, uh, I had to think really hard. I mean, what does a, what does a Ukrainian tell, people who will watch it in New York where it was being recorded about democracy? and I came up with three lessons. one was unity, another was vision. Actually, vision probably comes before unity. Vision, vision of the future. Vision of the future that you think is worth fighting for, unity in, in that shared fight. And, and the last one was, perseverance is basically hard work. getting on with it doesn't matter if you're going to live to see the result or not. So unity is key. I think without unity, that individual hope has a lot of potential. I'm sure it sustained people in times where unity was very difficult to manifest when you would, when you would be sent to jail or you would be executed, if you showed any, signs of dissent so that that individual hope, hopeless hope was definitely vital to have. But it's only when it's united into a collective when those individuals hold onto each other. In those human chains. I think when it's likely to produce the kind of catalyst that is needed for change, hope alone will probably not achieve anything. But without hope change is very difficult. I don't know if I've answered your question.

Speaker 3 21:03

No,

Speaker 2 21:03

I'm still thinking about it.

Speaker 3 21:05

No, I think you have, I think, I think one of the interesting things about the theme of hope throughout these days together is this question of where do we find hope? How do we learn about hope? And also how do we give hope back? I think you're right about this question of, having a vision and then the vision somehow creates a sense of unity. But that can also work in terms of creating a vision of hopelessness.

Speaker 2 21:31

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3 21:32

Right. Talking about, how you may not have learned about democracy, how you may not have learned about hope. Mm-hmm. Um, it works both ways.

Speaker 2 21:38

Oh, let, let me say something about hopelessness. 'cause I don't think it's such a, I think it has bad reputation for, for no good reason. and, uh, I'll, I'll tell you why I think that. So, one of the, when I started to think about hope, and it was maybe a year into the full scale invasion, when it was very difficult to maintain that level of hope and victory. but it also felt like it was absolutely vital to have something to, to, you know, a vision of something to go towards. So I started to think about it and I was very lucky. I was given a, a book by Maria de Marin, whom I've quoted not a book by her. She's written wonderful books, but she gave me a gift, uh, a book by Chelsea, Vago, who is an Australian aboriginal writer. and she, does not like hope. Uh, she uses very strong words to, To basically say hope is not for me. because she perceives it as, a tool that has been for colonized nations, a tool that has that, that benefits the colonizer, um, because it can push into the future. And so you become passive if you rely on hope in the future. And what she says, forget about hope. That's not how she position with it. Much strongly than that. forget about hope. be sovereign because the power is in hopelessness because hopelessness acquires certain degree of power when you have nothing to lose when everything's already been taken away from you. So I don't think hopelessness is necessarily, a, a void, you know? I think it could be a useful instrument to. Having said that, I also don't think that we should leave hope for the colonizer. I think we should claim it, and we should definitely make use of it. And in terms of the source of hope, for me it's always, uh, I mean maybe it's because I'm a historian, I can't help it, but it's always the past. It's knowing, it's knowing that if Ukrainians have survived so much, they know the means of surviving now as well. They have those tools, they have those, methods. Unity is one of them. Putting aside differences for shared values, recognizing those values on a very basic level. I keep saying to people whenever I speak that, you know, if you, if you ask. Somebody in London may be to define what freedom is, they might struggle to define it. It's a complicated, overused loaded term if you ask somebody in Ukraine to define what freedom is. I don't think people are gonna have a problem defining what freedom is because they know very well what the opposite of freedom is. And we talked about occupation this morning. We talked about what it means. So these basic shared values become so crystallized, so clear and so powerful that people are able to put their differences aside and unite around those. And I think that's another lesson for those of us who find ourselves in situations where political forces want to play on our divisions and differences. We need to remember that we do have those basic shared values, not just within the country, but across the democratic world. And that when we are united, we are so much more powerful than those political forces that try to divide us.

Speaker 3 24:54

I, I appreciate the challenging us to think of hopelessness as a virtue. I think that's a very powerful thought. As I listened to you, what I was thinking about was something you had said in your TED Talk, which I encourage, if people have not watched it in the room, they should in, in the Zoom room or in those that are watching livestream. But you said, at the end of that talk that one thing Ukrainians know is that democracy is really hard work. And I'm wondering whether or not you think the hopelessness that's cultivated before you get to democracy actually is training you for that hard work.

Speaker 2 25:32

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. in the case of Ukrainians is statelessness, uh, we've been stateless for a lot longer than we've had this, statehood, um, or, or, you know, the, the renewed statehood that we acquired in 1991. but that knowledge, the experience of state listeners has taught us to, come together, like I said before, to appreciate, the benefits of having a state. Uh, we often think about nationalism as a problematic thing, based on our 20th century European experience in particular. And, you know, that's, that's a very valid way to perceive it. But if you think about civic nationalism, politic, political nationalism that Ukrainians are demonstrating at the moment, that's rooted in the time when there was no state, when state had to be acquired, then protected and fought for, and constantly guarded. I mean, I grew up watching it created. I've been created, uh, come to, come to life. But my understanding was that my generation will have to guard it every single day because it can so easily slip away. So I think that knowledge of the absence allows you to appreciate the benefits of statehood. And what does it mean for us? Again, it's, I think it's become very clear, clear over the last three months. Why three months? Three years? Why, um, why Ukrainians of all backgrounds, why Crimean, Tatas, Romanian, Jewish, Polish, Russian, speaking, different languages, practicing different political views come together to defend the same polity, the same state. It's because they're defending the rule of law, and by defending the rule of law, they're def defend, defending their own basic freedoms. yeah, again, I'm not sure if I've answered your question.

Speaker 3 27:28

No, I, no, you have, I, thinking about democracy, moving across the country, moving across those demographics as you just described. Makes me think about something that you mentioned or an image you shared in your remarks, just a little bit ago about a flame, a flame crossing the country. And I'm wondering how you think about that flame or that spirit or that spark that moves across different value systems, different ethnicities, different faiths. Is that, is that flame citizens helping one another? Is that something that actually is in the air and not. almost sort of a given. I was thinking about the Holy Spirit coming down at Pentecost and flames going everywhere, and I was thinking, where do you think that resides as a historian? Is it the community doing that or individuals or a different power?

Speaker 2 28:27

Oh, what a wonderful question. Uh, yesterday we, we were talking about Ukrainian memes and that, that the current, I haven't actually seen it yet. I'm looking forward to googling it and finding it. one of the most recent memes is just an image of a tire. this goes back to our experience on the Madan during the revolution of dignity wear. You know, tire is burnt really well and it was very difficult to put them out, put, put on the fire. Um, so apart from tires as a source of flame, if it exists out there, and I'm sure it does because it exists in the knowledge and the experience that is passed on even through silence. Not to mention through literature and great works of art. And the conversations around the kitchen table that might have been quiet and, you know, people might have whispered, uh, passed on this knowledge whispering. Mm-hmm. But, but, you know, but, but it was still passed on. Even if it is there out there, we still have to do, we have to use our agency. We have to act to keep that flame going. Otherwise, perhaps it won't be bright enough or strong enough to sustain us, and again, creates the possibility of that change. and that is why whenever I sense you see, I don't sense the feeling of despair when I go to Ukraine. I don't, I do, when I speak to audiences in Western Europe and they often say to me, but what do we do? We feel so hopeless. and despair is about certainty that things are not gonna change. That things are really terrible and, you know, this is it. That's where we are. It's always going to be like that. Was hope is about looking into the darkness of seeing the potential of shining a light at that darkness or bringing a flame

Speaker 5 30:18

mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 30:18

to that darkness. So one way to light up those eyes when I see them looking rather hopeless in Western Europe is for me to remind them that each one of us has agency to make a small difference, to bring that flame to the fire, to make it larger. and it's up to us to decide how we choose to act. But remember that each one of us has that agency to act.

Speaker 3 30:45

I was smiling because, um. This notion of you talking to Western Europeans or maybe Americans as well, who are despairing in that sense of hopelessness, perhaps not in the virtuous way that we were talking about earlier. Do you think that despair is a luxury that Ukrainians can't afford? Do you think it's lazy on the part of Europeans are American, Western Europeans are Americans? It's an interesting question because I think it, it, I always feel as you do when I am in Ukraine, a sense of hope.

Speaker 4 31:19

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3 31:20

my Ukrainian friends, the colleagues that I meet, inspire me. I learn from them. There is a wisdom there from the historical experience. Yeah. The material lived reality that you're describing for us today, that is very palpable and very inspiring.

Understanding Despair and Privilege

Speaker 3 31:37

But if you haven't experienced that, how do you read that Despair.

Speaker 2 31:41

Mm-hmm. Yes. I think to some degree, you're right. It's a, you have to be in a position of privilege to despair. because if you're not in a position of privilege, you just have to get on with it. I remember the early days of the full scale invasion when journalists were looking for, and this is, this is not necessarily my story, it's the story of, uh, my friends who were working as fixers in Ukraine, helping Western journalists cover, a new ground because of course, until 2022, they often reported on Ukraine from Moscow. so, you know, they found themselves in a, in a relatively new situation, and, and they needed a lot of, uh, local help to help them find stories. And some of the stories they were looking for. Other were the stories of despair, panic, find me, a displaced woman, uh, with children who's crying and is hysterical and, uh. It was hard to find a woman in that state in those days. I mean, believe me, I'm sure everybody felt very distressed in those moments, but they had a mission to fulfill, to bring their dependence to the border, into safety from A to B through crowded trains, through impossible travel connections. There was no time to despair. There was no space, no privilege to despair. Now to your, question about historical knowledge that, helps us find this hopeless hope, or hopeful hope. I don't know. Um, I, I don't think we, we lack it. I think maybe we've just forgotten it. and I particularly wanna remind Western Europeans that, the knowledge of the Second World War is on a generation old. we mustn't forget what the world looked like when it was separated into the spheres of influence. that knowledge is still very much there. I, I don't think it's, I don't think it's, uh, that difficult to access and I'm beginning to see it be an excess now, in the way that leaders in Western Europe are beginning to mobilize themselves and maybe look for that spark that can sustain them in the difficult decisions that they have to make now.

Speaker 3 33:54

I wanna talk, uh, briefly before we open it up to the group for more questions. I appreciated your, reciting poetry, and I also appreciated Rory doing that last night as well. I wanted to, to actually read a very short poem by Emily Dickinson to get your reaction because I think there are similarities between the poem you shared and, and from one of my favorite poets. and it gets back to the final quotation that you shared at the end of your remarks. this is an Emily Dickinson poem called Hope is the Thing with Feathers. Mm. Hope is the thing with feathers that perches in the soul and sings the tune without the words and never stops at all. And sweetest in the gale is herd and sure must be the storm that could have bashed the little bird that kept so many warm. I've heard it in the chilled lad and on the, um, strangest sea, yet never in extremity. It asked a crumb of me.

Speaker 2 35:00

It's beautiful.

Speaker 3 35:01

What does hope ask of us and what do we ask of hope?

Speaker 2 35:05

Hmm. I'd love to hear other responses as well. I think it asks. It's what I was trying to say in, in my opening remarks, it asks us to keep planting those seeds without expecting to enjoy the harvest. And I think the most fertile ground for such seeds is the grounds that is generously sprinkled with love and faith.

The Role of Love and Witnessing

Speaker 2 35:41

And when I think about love, that's another complicated term that I've been thinking about because whenever Ukrainians were being asked, especially in 20 22, 23, what sustains them, they often said love. but it's so easy to love humanity. Everybody love everybody speaks really well about this. it's very hard to love individual people because when you love individual people. You then become responsible for their welfare. And that's, I think, the sort of love that we need for hope to produce the shoots that will be enjoyed by the next generation. so it's this active witnessing of what's happening again in the talk before this session, we were talking about the need to witness. We can witness from afar. We don't have to be witnessing directly the atrocities that are perpetrating in Ukraine by Russia to act on that material that we see in front of us. That act of witnessing has to change us. it has to give us hope that we can be actors in this change. Um, we can begin with that. We can begin with we witnessing with. Embracing our agency and looking for connections to unite us into meaningful action. And that has been happening already. Uh, and it's been happening, especially for the last three years. And I can see that, there's a renewed energy in that movement now. And of course the Ukrainian hub is one of the fruits of that energy. And thank you for making it happen. Um, but we need to persevere.

Speaker 3 37:36

I think we do. And I appreciate what you've shared with us today.

Audience Questions and Metaphors

Speaker 3 37:41

father Jim has the microphone. Actually he doesn't have the microphone. Mm-hmm. He's already given it away. So please, if you don't mind standing up and identifying yourself and asking your question.

Speaker 6 37:52

Comment. Uh, yes. Hello. I'm very thankful for, uh, this wonderful speech and this insightful conversation. I really enjoyed, uh, these metaphors from myths, and I want to bring one more metaphor to this conversation. so, in summer 20, 24, I was on the one pitching of Ukrainians documentary, and I saw a wonderful project about, the last power station working on Donbas region, uh, bringing light to people, electricity. It was in vo, just like 15 kilometers from the front line. And it's like unique footages because you have observed like what a dangerous work it is with uh, enormous circumstances under the constant shielding people totally heroic working there to still bring some light. And this project has, has a name of somebody who is bringing hope. And I immediately fell in love with this project because, uh, we all experienced power outages, uh, in Ukraine in summer 2024. It was extremely severe. We could have like, electricity for a few hours during the day. And so like I, uh, get acquainted with this project with film director and his project should have been about hope. But now this power station is occupied. He doesn't know how to finish his project to be true because he doesn't know is there hope anymore. So I wanna address you his question. Maybe you will find an answer, which I can give to him, how he can finish this,

Unfinished Projects and Ukrainian Art

Speaker 6 39:40

this project that should have been about hope, about station, last station Power station on Donbas, which is occupied now and can't provide electricity anymore.

Speaker 2 39:51

Thank you.

Speaker 3 39:52

Thank you for your question.

Speaker 2 39:54

I don't have an answer on how to finish it. what I would like to share with you is another unfinished project and how powerful an unfinished piece of artistic work can be because a lot of Ukrainian art literature at the moment is being interrupted because. It has been destroyed as we speak. 'cause it's a genocidal war that is aimed to destroy Ukrainian culture as well as statehood and nation. or because the person creating that piece of art is killed. and the, the work I wanted to share with you is by Victoria Meena, looking at women looking at war. So Victoria Menon was a poet and, a writer, who became a war crimes investigator since 2022, uh, traveled to liberated areas, had experienced occupation to record the war crimes. She felt, very clear sense of need to bear witness to hear those stories, to record them, and to bring that, at least that sense of justice to those people. Even if formal justice might be delayed or it might even never come. Just being heard and having your story recorded was already an important act. And she was killed in the missile strike in 2023 in C. and by that point she had already written about 60% of her, uh, nonfiction book that she was writing in English. 'cause she also traveled the world and spoke to audiences and decided that this is a way to do it, is to write a nonfiction book in English so we can speak directly to audiences outside of Ukraine and explain what was happening. And so the book that we have at the moment was finished by a group of, editors, who used, because some parts that were fully completed and others that were just notes and iPhone notes. Um, and when you read it, it disintegrates, at the beginning, these fantastic, beautifully written, extremely powerful chapters become more and more and more fragmented to the point of notes and tables and whatever they found in her computer and her phone. And that disintegration of artistic work is so painful to hold. And for that reason it's so important that we hold and we witness and we see editors various ways of in bold and italics in, in, in square brackets, commenting what could have been there, what should have been there, what they think might have gone there that, you know, try to engage with the text as they found it. So a lot of Ukrainian culture is, at the moment, is about rupture, interruption being unfinished, but that doesn't make it less powerful. it makes it a document of the current, of the current genocidal war.

Speaker 7 42:43

Hi, thank you so much for your remarks, uh, that are very inspiring.

Hope in Ukrainian Organizations

Speaker 7 42:46

I have a question that might be of a little bit of a practical nature since a lot of us here run or are part of various Ukrainian organizations. You mentioned different kinds of hope. Alexandra Machu, having cautious hope. I mean, she runs a nonprofit around human rights and very difficult circumstances. And then, uh, I think for us, for Ukrainian Society of Indiana, when we got started with zero resources and small community in Indiana, we probably had a lot of reckless hope. We had no idea we were doing, but we were gonna do it anyway. you are, you know, in leadership of a Ukrainian organization, you mentioned also challenges of speaking to Western audiences and how you feel despair. Talking to them and, well,

43:29

I

Speaker 2 43:30

don't feel this way. They feel despair

Speaker 7 43:32

or they feel despair and it can be challenging just to speak with them. What kind of hope propels you to continue your work and your organization and what can our organizations learn from you?

Speaker 2 43:44

Oh, I don't, I mean, I think we should be learning from each other, each one of those types of hope. And by the way, I'm not sure if Alexandra would agree that has this cautious, I'll speak to her next time. Then that's how I, that's my interpretation of her hope anyway. And I don't think this is a problem with having this cautious hope. She suddenly achieves a lot with it. I think we should all be learning from each other because we've, we've all turned to this, to some degree unprepared and we've discovered our strengths through the process of, of, of facing this huge challenge. But one thing that I would like to share from the experience of the Ukrainian Institute London, that, that is working for us is, um, making UK Ukraine relevant to the audiences to whom we speak. By that I mean not just telling people about the war and serving as a reliable and accessible source of information, about, uh, the war and how people can help, in this war, but also making Ukraine's experience, broader experience and culture relevant to people that we speak to. For instance, talking about environment, a global challenge, echo side is one of the things that we've been talking about quite a lot. London Ukrainian Review has an issue dedicated to it. We're on a huge panel with speakers from different parts of the world, addressing Echo side as a global issue. But of course, Ukrainians have very practical, you asked a practical question. We have very practical ways of dealing with this horrendous crime which we can share with others and learn from others. and, we have so much knowledge, unfortunately, about disinformation war, about hybrid warfare. about lots of things where we can draw connections with one another and be in dialogue, uh, be in dialogue of equals when we are being heard. When our voice experiential, voice based and experiential knowledge is trusted because we haven't raised the issue of trust yet. The lack of trust is a problem. Ukrainians have not been trusted with their knowledge. Uh, I've tried to write about this, before drawing comparisons between how women are not trusted with their knowledge, of themselves and often dismissed just because we're not men. and it's the same Ukrainians, were not trusted because they were not trusted. They did not fit into this, uh, idea of an authorit or authoritative voice. Because an authoritative voice is a voice of a, of a country with a long, uh, tradition of statehood and imperialism very often, right? so that trust has to be there. It has to be a, a dialogue of equals. It works. While we're on the question of trust, this is, I'm sorry, I'm sidestepping from your question, but I don't want to lose this thought 'cause I really want to share it with you. The opposite of trust. The betrayal of trust is a breeding ground for something really quite worrying. It's a, it's a, it creates fertile ground for, revenge, for resentment and for the, and for potential, for manipulation of the profound trauma that Ukrainians have gone through by the very people who have caused this trauma. And I think as the international community, we have to all remember that we should not allow this betrayal to happen.

Speaker 5 47:04

Bishop,

Speaker 4 47:05

I wanna thank for this, subtle and. Literary presentation and Michael for engaging in that. And I think it's just another example of why the humanities are important

Reflections on Hope and Sovereignty

Speaker 4 47:25

and the importance of humanities is, uh, one of the corollaries of an argument that I would like to, you know, respond with to some of what has been said in the form of discussion. I think, I think it's good for thinking, it's good for provocation to make hopelessness a virtue, but what are the consequences of replacing hope with sovereignty? Sovereignty essentially is connected with the question of power in, in the English language. It's, it's the power, the top power in a system. Somebody, something has, somebody has sovereignty in a system. It's the power of the government, or it's kind of, uh, an individual, power. And, uh, to kind of condense my argument and give illustrations, I, I think it's a very, a rand argument where self-interest is the number one criteria. and it's the, the moral purpose of a person is to have, according to the categories of self-interest, the happiness. it's something that, Elon Musk would agree with. Donald Trump because the po problem with sovereignty, which is cannot be, cannot be, I think, uh, separated from categories of power, is that there are a lot of people that are powerless. I can talk about, I mean, I would support powerlessness. Being a is a virtue, but hopelessness. I, I can't find the, the manner, a logical manner in which hope is a virtue, and hopelessness is a virtue as well. Uh, there are things that are, um, anomic for us Christians. God is man, uh, Christ is man, and Christ is God. The kingdom is here and it's yet to come. There are. In many things, you can't have a, and not a, unless you say there's no truth, which I think is the fundamental fallacy of contemporary, you know, zeitgeist. And we're paying a lot for that. And that allows, that allows people to say, you know, who started this war? Or, you know, that Ukrainians started that this war. Because all of these, all of these positions are very consequential. there are so many people that cannot have a sovereignty. And this, this is something we reflected on ed ku and that's why you put people in mentally handicaps at the center of the university. Not as a social project, but as part of the identity. People who are dying aged people, weak people. I submit and you know, I'm, I'm, I stand to be corrected because you just, you, you couldn't develop this in detail, but, the substitution of hope with sovereignty is for the strong, for the capable. It's an elite thing because the weak, the poor will be left behind in a system where sovereignty and power, action, et cetera, there's people that can't act. And we, as human beings are called to act for those who can't act and not to, you know, belittle them and say, you know, well you, you are either lazy or, or just pitiful. so I think, I think it's very important to salvage. The sovereignty of virtue of that. You know, I mean, I think it, I mean, the sovereignty of hope, hope is for everybody. and it, it's, it's, uh, not only for those who can achieve sovereignty.

Speaker 2 52:07

Thank you. Um, thank you, Bishop Bos. well, I intended it as a provocation, and it clearly worked. now the question about hope and sovereignty, uh, was something that I was provoked by as well. So it's not necessarily what was in my opening remarks, it's something that made me think differently about hope and allowed me to then come up with this, you know, basing it in Ukrainian experience. Come up with this, uh, idea of hopeless hope. So I still. One to claim hope, but maybe it's the sort of hope that doesn't think about the future and delayed action. But it's the one that is rooted in present, rooted in the past, but, but is practiced today. Practiced now, even if it feels like it won't produce any results. And that's why I tried to combine this contrast left as legacy for us with the thoughts that I was being provoked by. But powerlessness, as you yourself said, has been discussed by many. And I think, you know, different, different, the, there are different ways of practicing power. So I said, uh, I gave an example of my parents, and of course the, you know, their whole generation were practicing freedom, in society where that was really difficult to practice, but they found a way of practicing it. But Fats love Howell famously wrote by the power of the powerless. the powerless do have power. And for me, when I think about sovereignty, I think of agency. and I don't think the weak black agency. I think we need to, encourage those of us in position of privilege and voice, and platforms need to amplify the voices of those that are not in those positions. As I, as I know many of you in the room do, and indeed this very initiative does. but we need to also encourage them to find that agency within them. And one way of doing it when coming full circle, uh, is by uniting, by coming together and practicing that agency or sovereignty, whichever way you wanna call it together. But thank you for sharing your thoughts. I will keep thinking about them.

Poland's Role and the Power of Hope

Speaker 8 54:25

So my name is Joanna and I'm actually Polish. And since the full scale war, I have been every five to six months, every year back to Poland, even if I live in the United States 28 years. And I so appreciate the invitation I have gotten here because I am right now preparing for another six months of going there. Actually five and a half. But that's not the point. The point is, what I want to say is by Gaer, when we, when he was saying Gaer and news of Ner, have actually founded in Vienna, an institute of an individual. So I would like to come back to what you said. When I first came to Poland 2022, there was no time for reflection. There was only a lot of despair and we had to act also as a nation because millions were running to the country. And I have witnessed it. But then eventually by September, 2022. It turned out that we had very little tools as Poland, even if we are not necessarily spared from despair and passed that have crumpled on us. We did not have any tools to act upon 400 at that point. 2022, we had over 1 million children in our country. So what I would like to address with hope, and before I address it, I wanted to also say or ask everyone, how powerful would despair be without hope? Right? So maybe going back to your metaphor of a Pandora box, may, maybe there is some wisdom of God to leave us at least a little bit of oxygen in the lack of it, right? But then now as I. 2022, seen the lack of tools and how NGOs approach humanitarian help. And then already, by the end of 2022, most of the NGOs is were withdrawing from Poland because they called it no more emergency. And I have seen 400,000 young people. I'm not talking children or women, although the, the refugee wave in Poland is very specific because we almost now have men. Right. But I have asked myself a question as I came back to United States, what do we do about the 14 to 17? Just because this, and this is what I wanted to say. These are people that did not lose only the country. They have also lost the access to their own who they were. And they still struggle. I am in with them three years, they struggle. Who am I in a foreign country? And I feel. That giving them hope by not therapies, but giving them hope and bilingual wherever they are. And that's what we fight in Poland for right now, so that they will be cognitively bilingual no matter. So, so the language of school is something that we try to give hope, but I'm also grateful for all your adjectives to hope.

Speaker 2 57:54

Thank you. Thank you. Can I, um, give a very brief response to that. First of all, thank you for everything that you do individually and what Poland has done for Ukrainians. so in my very darkest moments, I think of Poland because if we think about hope as an ax to use, to break doors down in, in case of emergency, I think of 123 years of statelessness, of petitioning. In which you did not lose your identity. You did not lose your sense of self. You did not lose your sense of agency. You kept practicing citizenship without having a state. And then the generation that was able to restore statehood was able to fall back on all of that practice that happened in us and language and, and all of that. And I often think about that experience as well as Ukrainian experience of statelessness. when I, when I'm in, in a dark moment. And I think we have the tools, we have the ax, whether it's in the box, whether, whether we call it hope or something else, but we have a way of getting outta that state of emergency.

Closing Remarks and Announcements

Speaker 3 59:04

I want to take this opportunity to thank you again. Please join me in thanking Alexia for her.

Speaker 2 59:08

Michael,

1 59:19

thank you so much. Also, isn't it great of university leader with a PhD in English literature? Michael, thank you so much with us. I know you have to be in the dome at 12 noon. Please feel free to leave. That's okay. obviously, I, I, there's a little fascist in me about the time, but I tell you why there's a little fascist. I don't deny it. But number one, if the train gets derailed, there are so many wheels that have to, you know, work with each other. And then there will be a domino effect on many levels. And number two, and the domino effect has to be paid by those with the lowest salaries. Quite often, just no, seriously. And secondly, uh, I've seen that if, if those at the beginning take a lot of time, those at the ends don't have enough time, and that's why. We'll be back here at one 30. And now, uh, there's one word to describe Our lives will continue. And the word is lunch. Lunch will be offered in a Smith Ballroom in the Maurice Inn, which is the building just across the street. Across the street. Follow the crowd as you enter the Maurice turn right, or you take the northern entrance and go straight. But go to the main entrance and turn right. We'll continue at one 30 with parallel sessions on literature and culture. And at three 15 with parallel sessions on religion and resilience, our third plenary session will take place at 5:00 PM sharp in this very room. Before we break for lunch, we have an announcement by Mel and I will ask for the gym to bless the food through the wall.

Speaker 9 1:00:46

Good morning, regarding the Ukrainian Music and Poetry event tonight. Some of you have asked about tickets. We have tickets for all the conference presenters and invited guests, and we will distribute those tonight at the dinner for those folks. Those of you who are not presenters or invited guests, I have about 16 tickets in my hand that I will hand out after this session. Beyond that, I believe you can still reserve tickets online, and I also urge anyone without a ticket just to go to the performance because this is a free event and we expect that some people who have reserved tickets may not show up. And, if they don't, then any unclaimed tickets will be released at 7 45, 15 minutes before the show. So please just go, we, I, I'm pretty sure we can get you in. Okay. And then regarding tomorrow's film screening, I understand that's sold out. we have tickets again for the conference presenters and invited guests that I'll hand out, tonight at dinner. I'll bring any remaining tickets to breakfast tomorrow. And then also, again, it's a free but ticketed event, so we expect some people just won't come. And so I urge you just to go to the film if you don't have a ticket and. Hopefully, uh, you'll be able to get in all.

1 1:01:59

Thank you. Thank you, Mel. Thank you, Mel. So we hope that people don't show up that you can get tickets. Please bless the food for us.

Speaker 5 1:02:10

Thank you. Let's stand together. Wanna begin just by saying a word that Basil Monroe founded the congregation of Holy Cross, men and women, priests, brothers and sisters, and, and one of our monikers is, uh, men and women with hope to bring and let it be said of us all that we are men and women with hope to bring, uh, that we might find it here, but that we might take it wherever we go. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Heavenly God, we give you thanks and praise for your love, your mercy, your grace. Be with with us in all the ways we most need you. Bless this meal. Help it to nourish us that we might better be able to attend to one another in love and give us hope. Oh God. We may be bearers of it to the world, and God bless Ukraine. We ask this in your holy name, through Christ our Lord, in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.