Letras Latinas, Part 19: A Conversation with Adela Najarro

Episode Topic: A Conversation with Adela Najarro

Embark on an evocative journey through “split geographies” with poet Adela Najarro in an oral history interview with director of Letras Latinas Francisco Aragón ’03 MFA. From the boarding houses of mid-century San Francisco to the classrooms of Los Angeles, experience how deep ties to family history transform into precise, body-centered poetry. Discover a narrative of motherly and grandmotherly resilience that bridges Nicaraguan heritage with the American literary landscape. 

Featured Speakers:

• Adela Najarro, poet

Read this episode's recap over on the University of Notre Dame's open online learning community platform, ThinkND: https://go.nd.edu/42e18a.

This podcast is a part of the ThinkND Series titled Letras Latinas. 

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Transcript

Interview Setup: Date, Location & Oral History Project

Speaker 0:06

Thank you for agreeing to do this interview, Adela. for documentation purposes, let me just say that today is April 13th, 2023. We're on the campus of the University Notre Dame, and this is part of the Letta Latinas Oral History project. so will you, again, for documentation purposes, just tell us your name, your date of birth, uh, where you were born and where you, where you grew up.

Speaker 2 0:33

Okay. Alright. so I am Alaa and uh, I was born on October 19th and I grew up in California. I was born in San Francisco and then at age four we moved to the Los Angeles area. And then I moved, lived around in many different area, different places in the Los Angeles area.

Speaker 0:57

Can you tell us a little about your family background?

Speaker 2 1:00

So, um. All of my family's from Nicaragua and my, mother and father met in San Francisco in their twenties. And so, I could have been born in Nicaragua, but I was born in San Francisco and in, in St. Luke's hospital. And I was baptized in, ah, it's not St. Joseph's? No, it is St. Joseph's and, and on on a church on Mission Street. And I was, raised there.

Speaker 1:29

So both mother and father were born in Nicaragua?

Speaker 2 1:31

Yes. And they both immigrated to San Francisco.

Speaker 1:34

Ah. And they met in San Francisco.

Speaker 2 1:36

And they met in San Francisco. Yeah.

Speaker 1:37

Okay. Alright. And then their siblings are also from Nicaragua?

Speaker 2 1:41

Yeah, everybody. So, so the only, um, in my family, the people born in the United States are half of my cousins. So half of my cousins were born in Nicaragua. All of the aunts and uncles on both sides were born in Nicaragua.

Speaker 1:54

How old were you when you, when your family relocated to, to, to, to Southern California.

Speaker 2 1:58

I was about four years old.

Speaker 2:00

Okay. So from, so from ages zero to four, San Francisco. Yes. And then after that,

Speaker 2 2:05

yeah.

Speaker 2:05

Let's call it Los Angeles. Yeah.

Speaker 2 2:07

Well, and then I would visit my, my parents were not married and my, my mom's probably not gonna like that. But anyway, so, what happened though, though, my father was in my life. My whole was with us my whole life. And so I would go visit him every year

Speaker 2:22

in San Francisco.

Speaker 2 2:23

In San Francisco. And so I have a lot of memories of being in San Francisco in the springtime.

Speaker 2:28

What neighborhood did your father live in?

Speaker 2 2:31

well, let me see, what is, oh, Dolores Street. So, right in between the Noe, no Castro in between the Castro district and Mission District on Dolores Street.

Speaker 2:40

So, but Dolores in, so Dolores in 18th Dolores and 17th.

Speaker 2 2:46

I think in the twenties.

Speaker 2:47

Okay.

Speaker 2 2:47

I think Dolores in the twenties.

Speaker 2:48

So in other words, you're born in Nicaragua, then you relocated?

Speaker 2 2:51

No, no, no. I was born here.

Speaker 2:52

You were born in San Francisco, then you relocated Southern California with your mom.

Speaker 2 2:57

Yes.

Speaker 2:57

And then you would come back to San Francisco to visit your dad.

Speaker 2 2:59

Yes.

Speaker 2:59

So you were sort of having this, not this, you were going back and forth between southern California and Northern California.

Speaker 2 3:05

Yes. Yes.

Speaker 3:06

Because of your family circumstances.

Speaker 2 3:07

Yes. And and, uh, I remember being a little girl and flying alone on the plane, and I really loved that. That was such an adventure to be. So

Speaker 3:16

your mom was a, so your mom, obviously your mother was fine with putting you on the plane to go visit your dad.

Speaker 2 3:22

Yeah, my, my mom always spoke, well of my father and um. We, we, that's my family. And, and I love both sides of my family.

Speaker 3:31

So where in southern California did you grow up, let say from age? From from age four to 10. Where, where? In Southern California.

Speaker 2 3:38

So one, one of the things with my family is, uh, with my mom is that we moved a lot.

Speaker 3:43

Okay.

Speaker 2 3:43

she would just pick up and move whenever That was one of her prime, solutions to problems is, okay, we're moving, we're moving, we're moving. And I remember one time in third grade we were doing a, uh, lesson on math and charts, bar charts. And I know the teacher wanted to, get exa, you know, get data from the class. So she asked everybody, oh, how many times have you moved? And so on one side it was 1, 2, 3. And then she was gonna do the bar chart with the answers from the class. And then when she got to me, it was like 12. And so then she was like, oh my dear. That's a lot, you know? So then she had explain how there are anomalous data points in a set. Anyway, it's funny.

Speaker 4:28

So, in your household, remember that when you moved to Southern California with your mother, it was you, your mom and some siblings?

Speaker 2 4:34

Yeah, my brother, my brother Salvador.

Speaker 4:36

Okay. So, so I

Speaker 2 4:37

have one brother, Salvador.

Speaker 4:38

Okay.

Speaker 2 4:39

Yeah.

Speaker 4:39

Alright. So your brother Salvador, you, your, your mother and father had two kids. Yes. Together. You and you and Salvador.

Speaker 2 4:46

Yes.

Speaker 4:46

Okay. Alright. so you mentioned school, you mentioned third grade. Were you a reader? How, tell, tell me, share with us y your relationship, your incipient, your early relationship with books and reading.

Speaker 2 4:58

so I think that that's the foundation of my, language issue with language. So, because my mother worked, so when we were in San Francisco, I went to preschool at age two.

Speaker 5:09

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 5:10

And I think in preschool I seemed to remember picking up books. My mom tells a story that I did know how to read, like under the age of five. Um, so I, I was learned Spanish first, but because I went to preschool so early, I learned English. And then in the preschool they had books. And I do remember a story. It all, you know, when you're little, it all gets jumbled. So when I was around seven years old in Los Angeles with my Ernesto, we went to the library because I had checked out so many books, but we hadn't returned any of them. And so he went, we went to the library with the returned books, and then there were also bought books we had bought. So we were trying to barter the fees. Would you, would you take these children's books that we bought and the late books that we never returned and get rid of the fees? You know, so I, so I was reading, a lot, so much when I was a little girl and, I. Like I, I would be mesmerized and just read for hours and hours. I just loved reading.

Speaker 6:12

So was the Ernesto your mother's brother?

Speaker 2 6:14

Yes. Yes. The Ernesto.

Speaker 6:15

And so you have memories of him taking you to the library?

Speaker 2 6:18

Yes, yes. Yes.

Speaker 6:19

So it sounds like perhaps, was he maybe a father figure in a way?

Speaker 2 6:25

Yes. Southern California. Yes. Yes, he was. He was. And so my mom's side of the family, she's one of eight. Mm-hmm. And there are six brothers and two, six males and two women. My mom and my re and then my, the five uncles. And they, we, the reason we moved to Los Angeles is that they had all moved to Los Angeles. Mm-hmm. So we followed them to Los Angeles. So then it became, my mother's side of the family was in the Los Angeles area. My father's side of the family stayed in San Francisco.

Speaker 6:52

Okay.

Speaker 2 6:53

Yeah.

Speaker 6:54

And did you have a relationship with your extended family on your father's side of the family?

Family Migration Story: Grandmothers’ Journey & Building a Life in SF

Speaker 2 7:00

Yes. Um, so my father has two, two sisters. So I have two aunts and they have many children, many cousins. So the family's huge in terms of the, the, the aunts and uncles having children, you know.

Speaker 7:13

So when do you have knowledge of when your family on both sides, which family members first came to San Francisco from Nicaragua and when?

Speaker 2 7:26

Yeah, it, it was the grandmothers, both grandmothers came to San Francisco and left their children in Nicaragua.

Speaker 7:33

And we're ta are we talking like 1940s, 1950s? The grand when the grandmothers

Speaker 2 7:37

probably, probably forties, maybe early fifties.

Speaker 7:40

So the grandmothers made the journey from San Francisco. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 7:43

And it's really important that they, they both my father and my mother were left in Nicaragua with relatives. And even though the relatives, Took care of them. They both, I, I know that there's these huge fissures in their hearts because of that childhood trauma.

Speaker 8:01

But your grandmother, so two women came to San Francisco on their own, or what?

Speaker 2 8:06

I, as far as I can tell, yes.

Speaker 8:07

What did they do in San Francisco?

Speaker 2 8:08

so let see, I, what did, what did Lela do? Hmm. I don't, I'm not sure, um, what my grandmother on my dad's side did. I think she worked in factories, that kind of thing. my mom's, mother Thea, um, she, had a restaurant for a while. Then she had a boarding house. You, so you know how big the houses are in San Francisco? Yes. So what she'd do is she'd rent out the rooms, you know, that's those types. So they took, they made it on their own businesses. They were independent business women, both of them. Where, yeah. And then my father started making money by buying properties and re. Refurbishing them and selling them. And I think that helped out with Lela, my, his mother.

Speaker 8:54

Okay.

Speaker 2 8:54

That's how they did the finances.

Speaker 8:56

So, you mentioned in an earlier conversation, so we'll bring it out here, that you went to Nicaragua for the first time when you were 14. Yeah. Share with us a little bit the circumstances of that visit.

Speaker 2 9:06

Um, so my mom's, my mom's side of the family never returned to Nicaragua. Okay. Except for, Chico Francisco. He returned when he was in his late eighties and passed in Nicaragua.

Speaker 9:19

Okay.

Speaker 2 9:20

but no one on my mother's side went to Nicaragua. Well, some of them, some of my cousins do. They go for vacations, they go back and things, but my mom especially was like, she's done with that country. She's not gonna go back there. And she came here to the United States to make her a life here in the United States.

Speaker 9:40

So, just so we get the timeline, do you know the year when your mother. Came to the US was talking the sixties.

Speaker 2 9:50

Well, my brother was born in 58.

Speaker 9:52

Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 9:52

So then if I go back 10 years, that would be 48, fifties. So I guess my grandmother had to come earlier then.

Speaker 9:59

Oh,

Speaker 2 10:00

I was wrong with the, with the, with the dates.'cause my, my brother's

Speaker 10:02

birthday. So your mom migrated to migrated to San Francisco? Uh, when, in like the late forties, early fifties?

Speaker 2 10:09

Probably. Probably, yeah. But I know she was fully, she was an adult. She was in her early twenties when she came.

Speaker 10:14

Okay. Okay.

Speaker 2 10:14

She was not a child.

Speaker 10:15

Okay.

Speaker 2 10:16

Yeah.

Speaker 10:16

So that would've been a time when Samosa Dynasty would've, would've been in place then?

Speaker 2 10:20

Oh, yes. Yes.

Speaker 10:22

And so,

Speaker 2 10:22

oh, going really

Speaker 10:23

well. So when, when I hear you say, I left that country, I'm never going back. I, I detect perhaps some, some, some discord on your mother's part. Part.

Speaker 2 10:33

Yeah. Well, well, she, um. Through my, in my writing, I've had to think about this and analyze it. And I really think that what my mother did is that she did not have opportunities in Nicaragua.

Speaker 10:47

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 10:47

She had to get married. That would've been her option.

Speaker 10:51

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 10:51

And she didn't want that. She wanted more, she wanted an independent life, she wanted to build her own life. She's always done made businesses. Um, she came here and she, got a beauty school license. Then she became a beauty school teacher. Then she ended up her career as a state examiner for the state of California for beauty, beauty licenses. Mm-hmm. Cosmetology licenses. Mm-hmm. So it's amazing what she has accomplished on her own.

Speaker 11:17

So it sounds like what you're saying then, that she viewed as a woman that she would have more possibilities Yeah. In the US Yeah. Than remaining in Nicarag.

Speaker 2 11:26

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 11:27

And then when she came to San Francisco.

Speaker 2 11:29

So I, I have to tell you the story. So the story is pretty good because the ticket, my cent was for her sister.'cause her sister was older.

Speaker 11:38

Ah,

Speaker 2 11:38

but her sister was in love with her husband or who would become her husband. So my mom took the ticket. Oh. So my mom was the youngest of eight, and she's like, I'm going, I'm going to the United States.

Speaker 11:50

So how, how much time transpired from the time your mother arrived in San Francisco to when she met your father?

Early Writing: Limericks, Poetry, and Finding Your Voice

Speaker 2 11:57

No, I'm not, I'm not a hundred percent sure. Maybe five years, four years. Okay.

Speaker 12:01

Something like that. So she was a single woman for about five years.

Speaker 2 12:03

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 12:04

And then she met your dad?

Speaker 2 12:05

Yeah.

Speaker 12:05

Okay. All right. Let's transition back to the writing. So you were avid reader as a child.

Speaker 2 12:11

Yes.

Speaker 12:11

When did you begin putting pen to paper? What, what memories do you have about beginning to sort of scribble and start to

Speaker 2 12:17

Right. So, so they combined, right, the writing and the reading combined. And so it was I think it was third grade. Yeah, it was third grade. Maybe it was fourth grade. so we had a contest, a poetry contest.

Speaker 12:30

Okay.

Speaker 2 12:31

And, so I wrote limericks,

Speaker 12:34

okay.

Speaker 2 12:34

For the poetry contest. And, and so we turned it in and then the teacher, announced the winner. And the winner was this other little girl.

Speaker 12:43

Okay?

Speaker 2 12:43

And she read the little girl's limericks, except I had read all the limericks in the library, and I knew that the little girl had copied the limericks from a book in the library. And I had written my own limericks, right? So I should have won,

Speaker 13:01

you know,

Speaker 2 13:02

so I remember, I don't, I remember I did go up to the teacher and, and complain, I know I did that, but I don't have a memory of what she did. So she must have, she must have settled it in an amicable way.

Speaker 13:13

So how did you get, why did you, why were you writing limericks and not like a, a, a little short story?

Speaker 2 13:18

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Um, I loved

Speaker 13:22

Liberty. Do you memories of someone reading you nursery rhymes or

Speaker 2 13:25

No? No. My Do I remember people reading to me as a child? No.

Speaker 13:30

Okay.

Speaker 2 13:30

No, I don't. I don't. But you know, you know, later on, yeah. Later on when I am, gosh, my early, when I, so when I got a divorce, I was living in Los Angeles, I got a divorce and I moved back to San Francisco. So I reconnected with my father's side of the family.

Speaker 13:44

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 13:44

And I went to an Easter celebration.

Speaker 13:46

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 13:47

And there was, I think a great uncle. So it was an Easter celebration. Everybody was all dressed up. Buffet, you know, in somebody's home. In somebody's home. And everyone stopped. And my uncle recited poetry.

Speaker 14:00

Hmm? Your father's brother?

Speaker 2 14:03

No, he was a great uncle. So my father's, my father's uncle.

Speaker 14:06

Okay.

Speaker 2 14:07

Right. My father's uncle recited poetry. And everybody in the house sat down and stopped and listened and applauded and thought it was amazing. And now you remind me, my mom had. Federico Garcia Lorcas book of poems.

Speaker 14:20

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 14:20

In by her bedstand. So there must have been reading Okay. In my home with the poems and all that, because I remember the book. Okay. And I remember looking at the book as a child.

Speaker 14:30

Okay. did you go to high school in Los Angeles or San Francisco?

Speaker 2 14:34

Los Angeles.

Speaker 14:35

Okay. And then where did you go? Where did you go after high school?

Speaker 2 14:38

What do you mean? For college? You, oh, university of Redlands in Southern California. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 14:43

Which is a, a small private school.

Speaker 2 14:45

Mm-hmm. A small private school, like 2000 students.

Speaker 14:47

Why did you end up there? How'd you end up there?

Speaker 2 14:49

well, I, the narrative of my life is we came to, this is my mom. We came to the United States in order to make a better life, and you have to go to college and take advantage of these opportunities. Mm-hmm. And so I was like, okay, I'm going to college, I'm going to college, I'm going to college.

Speaker 15:06

So why not? Why not UCLH?

Speaker 2 15:08

Personally, I was afraid of large schools. I did not wanna sit in a classroom of 300 people.

Speaker 15:14

Okay.

Speaker 2 15:15

And I totally made the right decision because at University of Redlands, when I went in the eighties, there were, I had classes of eight to 12. My largest class was a genetics class, which had 23 students in it. And I've had one-on-one teaching for, for four years. It was amazing.

Speaker 15:33

So did you have any, um, any writing classes at Redmonds?

Speaker 2 15:37

Yes. Yes. So that, so, okay. So here, here's, here's the story. So here's the story. so high school, I graduated, I, I, I, I think I was a B student in high school. Mm-hmm. And, and I got accepted to all the colleges. I, I applied to, I only applied to small liberal arts colleges.'cause that's what I decided I wanted to do. Okay. I wanted to live on campus in a dorm. I wanted to have the full, small college nurturing experience. I got accepted to all of'em. I was great. I visited them, chose Redlands. So I'm going to Redlands and I'm loving the campus and I'm in my first class with Ralph Angel.

Speaker 16:13

You studied with Ralph Angel?

Speaker 2 16:15

Yes. And so he's teaching world literature and we're reading Crime and Punishment and also a hundred Years of Solitude. And those are the two I remember in this would've been class would've 1980 what? Probably 81.

Speaker 16:28

Okay.

Speaker 2 16:28

I graduated in 1980, so 81. And so I'm loving this class and I'm reading these books and I'm like grew because I read'em my whole life. So I'm truly Gregory. I turn in my papers and I get seed minuses and Ds

Speaker 16:42

from Ralph Angel.

Speaker 2 16:43

From Ralph Angel. I'm like, what? What? And so this was a small college and we all went to office hours. So I went to office hours. I'm like, why am what? What is going on here? And so he's talking to me and he is like, well, what? What? And so I start talking my ideas about the book, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so then he's like. Those are really great ideas, but they're not in your paper. And so he reads my paper and he is like, you know, reads it out loud and shows me that what I had said was not on the page. So then I ended up taking all the composition courses

Speaker 17:18

mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 17:18

Because I needed to learn how to write a college level paper.

Speaker 17:21

Mm-hmm.

From Would-Be Lawyer to Published Poet (and the Poets Who Shaped Her)

Speaker 2 17:22

And and in doing so, I had all these English credits. Mm-hmm. And also I loved Ralph, so of course I took his creative writing classes.

Speaker 17:30

So you were aware that he was a poet?

Speaker 2 17:32

Yes. Okay. Yes. Yes. So I took all his creative writing classes and I was a economics major at the time'cause I was going to be a lawyer.

Speaker 17:39

Okay. I was gonna be a lawyer

Speaker 2 17:41

And then, and I loved economics. Eco economics was good. but the faculty there was not that large. And, and Ralph was amazing.

Speaker 17:52

Let, let, let me steer this a little bit, so,

Speaker 2 17:53

okay.

Speaker 17:53

Okay. I'm hearing you're, you're at Redlands, you're thinking about economics and law school, but you're taking writing classes. Yes. Ralph Angel poet.

Speaker 2 18:00

Yes.

Speaker 18:01

At what point did you think, oh, this poetry thing I like more?

Speaker 2 18:07

oh,

Speaker 18:08

I mean,

Speaker 2 18:09

well, you see, see, I, my identity, I was always a poet. So fourth grade I'm writing limericks and reading poetry.

Speaker 18:16

Okay.

Speaker 2 18:16

High school. Um, I took a creative writing class and, I walk in and the teacher had put my poem on the walls.

Speaker 18:25

Okay. So what I'm hearing then is that poetry was, is something that was always gonna be with you. Mm-hmm. But it wasn't gonna be a career path. Right. You were gonna be a lawyer or something else.

Speaker 2 18:36

Right, right. And, and, so, so Riggs No, that's exactly true. So even in with Ralph's class, my, my, the Redlands Review, I have it in a box in my closet at home. And the, my first publication is about a poem where I'm writing about my mom working in a factory and her hands burning as she's doing hot cross buns and how she doesn't wanna work in this factory. So, so what I write about today

Speaker 19:02

mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 19:03

I wrote about, in that very first

Speaker 19:05

published poem was Ralph Angel, um, a mentor of sorts.

Speaker 2 19:08

Oh yeah, definitely. Definitely.

Speaker 19:11

Yeah. And did you read his work?

Speaker 2 19:13

I had to have, I had to have, yes. Um, he introduced me to Elizabeth Bishop. So my, my first book where I loved poetry, but I mean, I, I, obviously, I'm, I'm misstating my own story because I've always loved poetry, but I remember reading Elizabeth bi chip's North South, and so the actual book and falling in love with the poem from March or to March, and it's a poem about walking on the beach. Because I was raised in Southern California, always by the beaches. It's just that poem was amazing to me and I just fell in love with it.

Speaker 19:48

So who are some of the poets that Ralph Angel exposed you to in addition to Elizabeth Bishop?

Speaker 2 19:57

Now I'm gonna forget James McMillan, I think.

Speaker 20:01

Okay.

Speaker 2 20:01

It was a long, he, he wrote a long poem and, but now I forget. The one who stuck with me is Elizabeth Bishop.

Speaker 20:10

So you took writing workshops with Ralph Angel?

Speaker 2 20:13

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. And at my degree in, Redlands was as a writing, English writing major.

After College: Job Hunt, Becoming a Bilingual Teacher & Spanish at Home

Speaker 20:18

Okay. And then of course, you, I, to my knowledge, you have an MFA from Vermont. Vermont College. Yes. Vermont College and then a PhD from Western Michigan. Yes. So where did those two degrees come in with after Redland? Did you take a break from, from writing?

Speaker 2 20:31

So, so. My identity as a writer was, it was part of me as always, but it wasn't a career. So when I, left Redlands, I was going to try to get a job as a writer. So I was going to be right for magazines, nonfiction. Mm-hmm. Uh, advertising, I did internships, all those types of things. And, this was, when you mailed before email became

Speaker 20:55

Sure.

Speaker 2 20:55

Gosh, am I that old? Okay. Yeah. So I remember mailing a query letter

Speaker 21:00

mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 21:01

For any kind of job position to every single magazine in the Losan in Los Angeles County, which there are a lot.

Speaker 21:08

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 21:08

Zero responses. Okay. Zero. So then I was like, what do I do? What do I do? And on the news at the time, there was a shortage of teachers and they kept on saying, where's the shortage of teachers we need you to do? So I went down to the LA Unified school district offices mm-hmm. To get information.

Speaker 21:27

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 21:29

And, um, my whole. Jobs through college. Were summer camps with children, working with children through the YMCA.

Speaker 21:36

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 21:37

So I walk into, LA Unified School District saying, Hey, I heard this ad on the news on the radio that you need teachers. What's going on? I just, I went for information. I was wearing jeans and a shirt. You know, I was not like, interview ready? Yeah. And they're, and they talked with me and then they were like, oh, well we're doing, exams right now to test people's bilingual abilities. Would you like to take it? And I'm went, oh, sure. Why not? So of course I passed it. Right. And then they're like, oh, well, you know, we have some principles who are conducting interviews. Would you like to have an interview? And I went, oh, okay. Sure. And they hired me on the spot. They hired me on the spot.

Speaker 22:17

So they asked you, how did they know that you were bilingual?

Speaker 2 22:23

I told him or the, I told I must, the ad must have asked for bilingual.

Speaker 22:26

Okay. Lemme do a little parentheses here. Okay. There's something I forgot to mention, so let's get this outta the way.

Speaker 2 22:31

Okay.

Speaker 22:32

So speak to me a little bit about your relationship with Spanish growing up in your household. For example, did your, did your mother and father speak to you in Spanish English? Combination of

Speaker 2 22:47

both. Well, well what What's hilarious is whenever I speak Spanish to anybody, they always say that I have a Nicaragua accent. And that's because in San Francisco, we were all Nicaragua. Mm-hmm. So all of my family and friends, extended family were Nicaragua. So every single time I spoke Spanish, I only spoke Spanish. From zero to high school, I only spoke Spanish with Nicaragua people. And what

Speaker 23:16

language did you speak to? Speak with your brother?

Speaker 2 23:21

We, so all the cousins and my brother is Spanglish.

Speaker 23:24

Okay.

Speaker 2 23:24

And as we got older, it went more and more English. Okay. But the, the formative years home was Spanish.

Speaker 23:32

Did you ever, or have you ever studied the language formally?

Speaker 2 23:36

sort of, sort of little bit here and there. Classes here and there, but not, I don't have a degree in it or nor, not even a minor or

Speaker 23:42

anything. But you can read it. You can read it,

Speaker 2 23:44

yes. Yes.

Speaker 23:45

Okay. But you don't have extensive experience writing in Spanish?

Speaker 2 23:48

No.

Speaker 23:49

Okay. No. Okay. So get, so you got a job as a school teacher?

Speaker 2 23:52

Yes. So that's what I did. What grade after, after college. What

Speaker 23:55

grade level?

Speaker 2 23:55

K through three. And basically I worked with, uh, the kindergartners in first grade was the most.

Speaker 24:00

And how long did you do that?

Speaker 2 24:01

13 years. 13 years.

San Francisco Open Mics, Teaching Full-Time, and Choosing Poetry

Speaker 24:03

So you worked as a school teacher for 13 years? Yes. And then you decided to go to grad school and create writing?

Speaker 2 24:10

Yes, I got, um, so I was writing poems the whole time.

Speaker 24:13

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 24:13

And, um, I got a divorce again. The divorce is a major milestone in my life.

Speaker 24:18

Okay.

Speaker 2 24:18

And so, I moved to, I was in la I moved to San Francisco and I was still teaching, bilingual education, kindergarten, first grade, and I was riding like crazy in San Francisco. I, there's open mics and I was going to two to, I don't even know how I did it.

Speaker 24:34

So now we're talking the nineties.

Speaker 2 24:37

No, I don't. I'm not sure. It's when I was in my thirties. So I got a divorce when I wa so I met my ex-husband when I was 21, and I divorced when I was 31. So this is when I was about 31.

Speaker 24:51

So that's,

Speaker 2 24:51

do we have to, do we have to do the years that mean?

Speaker 24:54

Well, well, I'm trying to,'cause you know, I, okay, so

Speaker 2 24:57

you, you wanna find out if you were in the, in the area?

Speaker 24:59

Well, you know, okay. I graduated from high school in 1984 and then I went to uc, Berkeley in the fall of 1984. And so I was studying at uc, Berkeley Poetry in the mid to late eighties. And I'm trying to, trying to sense,

Speaker 2 25:12

so no, I was not there. I was in Los Angeles. That's probably when I was married.

Speaker 25:17

Okay. That's

Speaker 2 25:18

probably,

Speaker 25:18

so you began doing open mics, let's say late, late eighties and beyond.

Speaker 2 25:23

Probably later than that.

Speaker 25:24

Okay. Alright. Later. That feels later. Then let's get back. So, so you began doing open mics and then what?

Speaker 2 25:29

Right. And so I was, I, I, I was. Elementary school teacher full-time.

Speaker 25:33

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 25:34

Going at night to open mics. Mm-hmm. 2, 3, 4 times a night. In San Francisco. In San Francisco. What neighborhoods where? the, the hate, the lower Hate International cafe. Okay. that's the one I remember most of is Norman

Speaker 25:46

was So you were part of the spoken word scene?

Speaker 2 25:48

Yeah.

Speaker 25:48

In San Francisco? Yeah. Let's call it early nineties. Okay.

Speaker 2 25:51

Yeah. And, and that at that time I was also pursuing, a master's in, in instructional technologies.'cause I, I thought that I could, change my education background mm-hmm. Into making computer programs for children. Okay. So I was going to a master's program full-time teaching and going to open mics three or four times a week. And the poems won. So I did not finish the Master's in. So

Speaker 26:16

at some point you thought, you know what? If I wanna do more graduate work. It's in creative writing that I should be doing it. Is that what happened?

Speaker 2 26:24

Sort of. Okay. So here, so I, I don't, I like making fun of myself. So I wrote Ralph Angel

Speaker 26:30

Uhhuh

Speaker 2 26:30

a letter

Speaker 26:31

Okay.

Speaker 2 26:31

In marker.

Speaker 26:33

Okay.

Speaker 2 26:33

On top of my grandmother's washing machine.

Speaker 26:36

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 26:37

And I must have included a poem or something.

Speaker 26:39

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 26:40

And Ralph wrote back, what did you ask him in the

Speaker 26:42

letter?

Speaker 2 26:43

Probably. Here I'm writing poems again. What do you think? What should I do? Right,

Speaker 26:48

right.

Speaker 2 26:48

And he just wrote back and he said, hi, how are you doing? I'm so glad to hear. And we reconnected. And it was through Ralph that I learned about. Oh, I didn't know any, I didn't know master's programs existed.

Speaker 26:59

Yeah.

Speaker 2 26:59

Well, I, I guess I did'cause I got the instant instructional technologies, but I thought for a job. Oh, master's programs exist for jobs.

Speaker 27:07

Yeah. So what did Ralph say?

Speaker 2 27:09

So, so he said, you know, after, so I was writing and sending him poems and he was writing me back and I think we connected talking on the phone, and he suggested that I go to, univers, the master's program at, um, Vermont College. He was teaching in that program. And so he said, you should, you should consider an MFA. And so I did. I had,

Speaker 27:29

so what I'm, what I'm finding interesting about this story is that you had him as a creative writing teacher, as an undergrad, but he did not say you should do an MFA,

Speaker 2 27:42

not what? Well, he, he might've, when I did, was an undergrad. Maybe I didn't hear it. I have friends

Speaker 27:47

Yeah.

Speaker 2 27:47

In the same cohort who did go? One, one friend went to NYU for Right out,

Speaker 27:51

right out of Flins.

Vermont College low-residency MFA: mentors, workshops, and rebuilding after divorce

Speaker 2 27:52

Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know if I just didn't hear it or if I didn't understand it or if it was, you know, that, I didn't understand how the. A higher educational system worked in the United States. Okay. And I had no one to tell me.

Speaker 28:05

Okay.

Speaker 2 28:06

You know, no reinforcement at home.

Speaker 28:07

So he, so he suggested Vermont College'cause he taught in that. Is that a, is this a, this a

28:10

It

Speaker 2 28:10

was a low residency

Speaker 28:11

program. That's, and he taught in it.

Speaker 2 28:13

And he taught in it.

Speaker 28:14

So he became your teacher in the low residency

Speaker 2 28:17

program? I never worked with him in the, in the, at at, at Vermont. Who did you

Speaker 28:20

work with in Vermont?

Speaker 2 28:21

Richard Jackson, Mark Cox, David wo. Oh. And, oh. oh, he was beautiful. Now I'm forgetting his name. He passed away. Oh. And he is such a beautiful soul. So I, okay. So one of the things I, I did is because my divorce was due to abuse, it was an abusive marriage. And leaving that marriage, I did not want to be hateful

Speaker 28:48

mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 28:49

Or resentful. Mm-hmm. Or, backlash against men.

Speaker 28:53

Okay.

Speaker 2 28:54

So one of the things I did is I got myself male cats because I had to have positive male energy in my life.

Speaker 29:01

Okay.

Speaker 2 29:01

And I have mad male cats my entire life.

Speaker 29:03

All right.

Speaker 2 29:04

Okay. And then at Vermont, I insisted on working with men because I wanted to, not be put down by masculinity and to be equal to, to men. That was, that was an impetus at that time. And I did that on purpose.

Speaker 29:21

So were there any, any of your instructors that were on college stand out as as who, who were useful to you as and as you're developing?

Speaker 2 29:28

Well, they all were. They all were. They all were. They all were. So, so, you know, they all, and one of the beautiful things about Vermont is that, you work for six months, one-on-one with a, with an instructor and you send them a packet of work once a month.

Speaker 29:40

Yeah.

Speaker 2 29:41

but then they have a two week residency Yeah. Where you have a workshop.

Speaker 29:44

Yeah.

Speaker 2 29:44

And in the workshop I had, there were women teachers in the workshops and things like Mary Ru full. And I, I, I'm sorry I don't, I forget names and so many people. But you study

Speaker 29:54

with Mary Rfu

Speaker 2 29:55

for in the workshop Yeah. And then also in the PhD. And, um, we'll get

Speaker 29:59

to the PhD in a minute, but

Speaker 2 30:00

Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so all of, so that program, Vermont was so rich mm-hmm. Because you get that one-on-one over six months. Mm-hmm. And then at the residency you get, more teachers

Speaker 30:12

Sure.

Speaker 2 30:12

Through the workshop, through the lectures, through the students. It was a very program balance.

Speaker 30:16

On balance. Was your MFA experience at Vermont College a positive one?

Speaker 2 30:21

Oh my goodness, yes. So I was teaching full-time while doing that. Mm-hmm. While going to the open mics. So, and, and I look back on myself, I'm like, how did you do that?

Speaker 30:30

So how did, how did the experience of, now going into some formal training, IE, the MFA program, how did that change or influence.

Speaker 2 30:41

Oh,

Speaker 30:41

was from your, from your, well, you know, your open mic or,

Speaker 2 30:45

oh, right, right. So, so I had to come to, to, before I went to the MFA, I had to make a decision of if I wanted to become a performance poet

Speaker 30:53

mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 30:54

Or a poet focused on the page.

Speaker 30:56

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 30:57

And I just did some interior work on myself to figure out what I wanted to do. And I didn't, excuse me, I didn't wanna be a performance poet. Okay. Mm. I didn't want to, develop that part of the art.

Speaker 31:10

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 31:11

I, that was just like, what? Why is, well, I just like to stand on stage and perform mm-hmm. And to, to, to work on my performance.

Speaker 31:19

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 31:20

I mm-hmm.

Speaker 31:22

The, the reader in you sort of took over in that point? Maybe.

Speaker 2 31:24

Yeah. I suppose I was just like, no, I don't wanna do that. I don't wanna be out in front performing every single time I do my poems. I, I, and instead I wanted to focus on the page, on the poem, on the page. And I like that. I think, oh, you know, it had to be the reader. Because I've always felt that when I'm reading, I am connecting with the authors.

Speaker 31:45

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 31:45

So if I was writing, then I could connect with the world.

Speaker 31:49

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 31:49

And I think that's what I was, I went that way.

Speaker 31:52

Talk to me about your decision to then, and the timeline to then go on to pursue the PhD at Western Michigan.

Speaker 2 32:00

So, so the, the MFA was so amazing and so powerful and so wonderful. I mean, I just loved it. I loved it. Reading and writing and reading and writing and talking about writing and reading and poetry. I was amazing. And I was like, I need to do this. I'm gonna do this full time. And so, I needed to change, e elementary school teaching in, I always taught bilingual education. I taught in poverty districts.

Speaker 32:25

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 32:26

Um, it was very, very challenging.

Speaker 32:28

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 32:28

Very, very beautiful work.

Speaker 32:29

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 32:30

But exhausting. I would come home after teaching and sleep for two and a half hours. Okay. And this is when I was in my twenties.

Speaker 32:37

Okay.

Speaker 2 32:37

It was that draining because you have, I think I had 30, 36 year olds and I am a very loving person. And so all day long I was putting out my love, the 30 little human beings. And I thir, I did that for 13 years.

Speaker 32:54

No, it's exhausting. So how, so

Speaker 2 32:56

I needed, I needed to change. So, I, I decided to change my life and, I applied to the Stegner at Stanford.

Speaker 33:03

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 33:04

I applied to Provincetown.

Speaker 33:05

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 33:06

And I applied to the, to the PhD program at Western Michigan.

Speaker 33:09

Why Western Michigan?

Speaker 2 33:10

Because two of my professors at at. Vermont talked there. Oh. And I knew that I could work with them, which Nancy IMers and Bill Olson. So I knew that I, they, they're the nicest, kindest, most beautiful people, and their poetry is amazing. And I knew it was like, okay, if I'm gonna go live somewhere and interact with somebody about my poems

Speaker 33:32

mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 33:32

For four to five years, I better like them.

Speaker 33:34

Yeah.

Speaker 2 33:36

And so I knew it was guaranteed that I liked them. So it was, it was, it was okay. And, and then I just did the d rolled the dice. It's like wherever I get accepted, that's where I'm going.

Speaker 33:45

And Sosner Provincetown, Western Michigan.

Herb Scott, New Issues Press, and the Western Michigan years (late ’90s–early 2000s)

Speaker 2 33:47

Right. And so I didn't get the Stegner. I didn't get Provincetown, but I got Western.

Speaker 33:51

Okay.

Speaker 2 33:52

And so I packed up and moved and went.

Speaker 33:54

Yeah. And so, but then talk to me a little bit about where Herb Scott came into the picture as a mentor.

Speaker 2 34:01

Oh, well, he, he was amazing. He was my dissertation director and unfortunately he passed.

Speaker 34:06

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 34:06

Uh, a year and and a half before I finished, or I mean, he got cancer a year and a half before I finished in the knee pass, before I finished.

Speaker 34:13

So

Speaker 2 34:13

what? And so Nancy and Bill took over his, his, his press it. Well, they took over, I think they took over his press. But as my dissertation advisors, he was my advisor. And then Nancy and Bill took over.

Speaker 34:24

But wasn't there a press outta Western Michigan? What was it? Wasn't there? What a press?

Speaker 2 34:27

Yes. Yes. Third, um, third Coast.

Speaker 34:29

Yeah.

Speaker 2 34:30

Or new issues. New issues.

Speaker 34:31

New issues.

Speaker 2 34:31

Third Coast is their magazine.

Speaker 34:32

So new issues Was Herb, Scott's baby, or, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then they took it over after he died, or, or it just folded after he died?

Speaker 2 34:38

No, no, it's still going. So, so they took it over. Okay. Or the, it continues as part of the graduate studies program at Western Michigan, getting

Speaker 34:44

back to, you know, for documentation purposes, what years were you at Western Michigan?

Speaker 2 34:49

Oh my goodness.

Speaker 34:51

It we're talking like the early two thousands.

Speaker 2 34:53

Okay. So I got my job at Cabrillo in 2005. I worked in Wisconsin the year before that, so I must have graduated in 2002. Took me five years. So late

Speaker 35:06

nineties.

Speaker 2 35:06

So late nineties. Okay. Early. Early. Yeah.

Speaker 35:11

Alright. Okay. And, um, during your years at Western Michigan, that's where you met Metta?

Speaker 2 35:18

Yes. Mema, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 35:20

Who else was there with you?

Speaker 2 35:22

Jamie Dino, my Kirsten Hemi, Carrie Mcath, who I'm gonna see this weekend. Rachel Levine. And you may not have heard of them, you know, but they're, beautiful poets and writers, and we're all, we're all doing this work.

Speaker 35:38

Okay. Now's the time to tell the origin story of how we know each other. Let me give you my version. Okay. And then you're gonna, and Okay. Add to it. Okay. So in two, in the summer of 2004, I was putting together my proposal for the wind shifts for U of A. And my recollection is that you got on my radar. I don't remember the details. So you'll fill that part in. It's about Valerie Sayers Somehow, somehow Valerie Sayers put you on my radar. I don't remember how, but But her, her, I remember she was involved.

Speaker 2 36:22

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 36:22

And I had this memory that maybe some of your work appeared in an dam review. And then I just, I guess I just got in touch with you at some point and told you that I was doing this anthology.

Speaker 2 36:33

So, so I, I, I think it was, um, way before the anthology that we met. Okay. It was at the end of my graduate program. So the traditional trajectory of getting a PhD, you, you know, you take your courses the first years and then you write your dissertation as you're writing your dissertation, you, you go to conferences and, and, workshops and, you know, you try to build out your CV and get those experiences. So part of that is I applied to a Catholic Writers conference at mm-hmm. St. John University or University, I think it's St. John Universities and, in New York.

Speaker 37:06

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 37:07

And Valerie Sayers was the fiction, instructor and I'm not sure, oh, I know my dissertation combines cre, creative nonfiction. Critical analysis.

Speaker 37:21

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 37:21

And poetry.

Speaker 37:22

Okay.

Speaker 2 37:22

So I did a two volume dissertation. And so I went and worked with Valerie because of the critical nonfiction, the nonfiction and the critical pieces. Mm-hmm. And so she was the prose, uh, instructor at this conference. Mm-hmm. So it was a two week conference Oh. For, for writers who, were putting Catholicism as central to their work.

Speaker 37:42

Mm.

Speaker 2 37:42

And, and so, um, I think it was in, it was in contemporary literature. Contemporary. So it could have been criticism.'cause there were some people who were doing criticism. There were some medievals too. So I, I think it could have been scholars. Okay. So current scholarship on Catholicism.

Speaker 37:58

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 37:59

And any discipline.

Speaker 38:00

Okay.

Speaker 2 38:01

but it had to have a creative writing component.'cause Valerie was there. Um, I worked with her for the prose, for the nonfiction pieces of, of that, and so she, spoke with me and, and told me about the Na Notre Dame review. I submitted some work. She, she connected us at that point in time somehow.

Speaker 38:19

When you say she connected us, what do you mean?

Speaker 2 38:22

Well, you and I had a dinner or a lunch in San Francisco.

Speaker 38:27

I remember the lunch, but,

Speaker 2 38:29

so we had to have, we had to have been talking, you know, or something in order for that to happen.

Speaker 38:36

but do you, okay. Do you, but do you remember me asking you for poems for the wind shifts and how that happened? Do you remember? What do you remember?

Speaker 2 38:42

I think it, I think it may have been from that lunch or maybe after it's, it's been Okay. We're now in 2023. That's like 20 years ago.

Speaker 38:49

Okay.

Speaker 2 38:50

It's almost

Speaker 38:50

23. Okay. So I do remember that lunch in the Mission District. Yeah.

Speaker 2 38:53

I remember I was wearing a very nice purple coat

Speaker 38:55

on Mission Street and, um. Okay. So it looks like it's fuzzy for both of us.

Speaker 2 39:02

It is. It

39:02

is.

Speaker 39:02

It is. Okay. Well, but, but 2004 was when I was putting the proposal together,

Speaker 2 39:06

so it had to have been, it had to have been post, because I, I graduated from the PhD man that, yeah, it must have been, that 2004 was when I was in back in San Francisco.

Speaker 39:14

Yeah. I mean, 2004 was when I was putting the proposal together and

Speaker 2 39:18

I got the Caprio job 2005. I was at uc, Santa Cruz 2004.

Speaker 39:22

Okay.

Speaker 2 39:23

Yeah.

Speaker 39:24

Okay, so here's what I, here's what I remember also, right? So I asked you for some poems and then the wind shifts came out in 2007.

Speaker 2 39:38

Okay.

Speaker 39:39

And I remember that my criteria was people with no more than one book in print or less.

39:46

Mm-hmm.

Finding a publisher: Montoya Prize finalist runs and the Mouthfeel Press connection

Speaker 39:47

So there are a number of poets in there who didn't have a book yet. Yeah. And you were in that category.

Speaker 2 39:51

Yeah,

Speaker 39:53

I do remember that. After the anthology came out, I would occasionally hear from you because you were having a difficult time. Oh, I know, I know. Also must have happened. Perhaps you, you began to submit your manuscript to the Andres Monte Poetry prize maybe.

Speaker 2 40:13

And, and every single time I did, it was a finalist every single

Speaker 40:16

time. No, I forgot about that piece.

Speaker 2 40:17

Well,

Speaker 40:18

maybe that might've been part of it as well.

Speaker 2 40:20

Yeah. So every single time I submitted to the and Andreas Montoya Poetry Prize, it was a finalist Every single time. Every single time.

Speaker 40:26

Yeah. And, and what that was, that was me.

Speaker 2 40:29

Right.

Speaker 40:30

Wining, wining 70 manuscript down to 20 or 15.

Speaker 2 40:34

Right.

Speaker 40:34

And saying it off to the final

Speaker 2 40:35

judge. Right, right. And then Francisco X Alarcon, selected mine, and Martinez, I think is his, his last name as honorable mentions.

Speaker 40:44

Mm.

Speaker 2 40:45

And,

Speaker 40:46

okay, so Francisco. so let as the winner, Lori an Guerrero.

Speaker 2 40:53

Yes. Yes.

Speaker 40:53

Okay.

Speaker 2 40:55

And with two honorable mentions. And I was one of those

Speaker 40:57

Honorables I do remember, but here's the, what I'm the story I wanna share though. This will get us to this,

Speaker 2 41:02

okay.

Speaker 41:02

The story I wanna share is that in those years I do remember getting emails from you Oh. And detecting, you know, that you were, you were really having a difficult time finding a home for that first book manuscript. Oh,

Speaker 2 41:19

definitely. So, so who was the other honorable mention?

Speaker 41:22

Do you remember? no,

Speaker 2 41:23

uh, because that's what happened. He published a book and I emailed you saying, Francisco, he published a book. Why can't I publish a book? What am I doing wrong? And then you, you, told me about Mouthfeel Press.

Speaker 41:37

I told you about Mouthfeel Prince.

Speaker 2 41:38

Yep. You told me about Mouthfeel Press. I sent it to them and I and Maria Maloney we're still friends.

Speaker 41:45

Yeah.

Poem reading: “To Do Without” — Split Geography and the search for love

Speaker 2 41:46

And we still talk. And, the, this book is, going to, she's working on it to get an ebook and, and, and because she just redid her press,

Speaker 41:54

I was not aware. You're reminding me. I don't, I don't, I mean, knew you told me about it. You not feel press existed, but I don't remember it sending you to them. Okay. So I'm gonna read you my favorite poem from Mount From From,

Speaker 2 42:04

okay.

Speaker 42:04

From Split Geography. And then, and then that's gonna take us to another direction. Okay. And I'll tell you why I've chosen this as, as the poem. Okay. And the reason why I'm reading the poem and not having you read the poem is'cause when I was at uc, Berkeley in the, in the mid eighties, one of my teachers was Robert Pinsky. Oh, okay. And he has the, his idea, one of the lessons that he always tried to instill in his students was the idea that a poem is not a fully realized work of art until it is uttered allowed by someone. Other than its author.

42:39

Well,

Speaker 2 42:40

thank you.

Speaker 42:41

That that's, that's Robert Pinski. That's why I'm gonna read it. Okay.

Speaker 2 42:44

Okay.

Speaker 42:44

It's to do without, to do without. It's not death that matters. It's the time here. Now I was thinking about a roof. The sky opened by wind. A white moon, three inches above a horizon of darkness. Love me God. Damnit. That's what gets me most at this moment. No one is thinking of me. It's only me, right? I'm the one who stuck here. I could get in my car and speed up Oakland Drive, but curving around at slow to a stop knowing the police were out and about. Willing to give a helpful warning, a ticket to steer straight. Danger is imminent. Now that the weather has cooled and snow is coming slow down, there are leaves in the street. It's wise to take a few precautions. That's my problem. My family, each of them with their screwed up lives, loved me and loves me and I can't get over it. Me, the fat little girl who cried too much child born out of wedlock. By the time I could remember, it was all over. The family forgave. My mother forgot my father, and I was this little thing with chubby hands to hold. Ernesto taught me how to dance in the garage where he set up three television sets so he could watch football games, rose bowl, orange Bowl, Carnation Bowl, all the games all the time. I was unaware he was placing bets, but no matter he held my hands and taught me how to swing. I was shy at first, one step here, one step there, shake the hips a little just like this. Then turn and face the little boys, Aaron, Wesley, Mike and Pete on their bikes watching me dance on a warm afternoon. My deal, knowing they were there. He wanted the world to look at this beautiful little thing. They should love me too. Impossible to forget that I got over the embarrassment by hiding in the bathroom at Gallatin Elementary for three days, but to actually no love. It's something I find difficult to do without do I really have to tell about the difficulties. That party going home alone driving the quiet road through silver darkness, the trees, the moon and the sky open to the expanse. Now, the reason I selected this poem, it feels like a, like an overture of all the work that's gonna come. Next. So speak to me a little bit about the genesis of this poem, if you remember.

Speaker 2 46:38

Oh gosh. Well, I wrote that in Michigan. So, so the title of the book, split Geography is because the poems in the collection are Nicaragua, California, California, Michigan. So, so how I was split in my geographies and, trying to become whole from, with all these different locations. So that one was, written in, Michigan. So that's the snow. And even though Oakland Drive reminds us of Oakland, it was actually, there was an Oakland Drive in Kalamazoo, Michigan.

Speaker 47:09

Well, okay, so you start off with, you start off with, uh, all this imagery, but for me, things really, the poem really comes alive where you really realize what's at stake, at least for me, for this reader, when you get to the point where you say. Child born outta wedlock. By the time I could remember it was all over the family. Forgive my mother, forgot my father. I mean, that's where the poem really begins to, that's, that's the, and then of course the, the turn with the Ernesto, who you've said earlier was sort of like a father figure.

Speaker 2 47:46

Yeah.

Speaker 47:46

so, so it's a poem that sort of takes you on this little journey.

Speaker 2 47:49

Yeah. well, so, so the, the, it began with the end where I was driving alone. so I was very frustrated in, in, Kalamazoo because I, I, was looking for love and I couldn't find it. And I did find it. I have found love, but I was frustrated many times. And so I started the poem exploring those feelings. Hmm. And then, part of my, trajectory as a writer or how I approach writing. Is you have to dig deep and you have to find your truth, and you have to be brave enough to say it. So, so if I'm exploring my feelings of why am I seeking love?

Speaker 48:30

Mm-hmm.

Publishing breakthroughs: Split Geography, Twice Told Over, and writing between traditions

Speaker 2 48:31

Why am I leaving parties and not, I'm not chasing after people. Mm-hmm. Right? If they're not gonna love me, I'm on the road and I see the empty expanse of the clear Michigan sky. You know, why am I feeling these things? And so I had to go back into my past and into my family to discover my truth. And so in a poem, when you, you have to do that work to find your truth, and then it becomes a gift that you give to the reader if you want. And so I've always been willing to, give that to the reader.

Speaker 49:07

Okay.

Speaker 2 49:08

And share those, share, share my truth. I, I'm willing to do that on the page.

Speaker 49:14

So we got Split Geography out there. You got your first book published. How did this book come about?

Speaker 2 49:19

Well, actually they happened at the same time. there was one week I also wrote a, a book on teaching with two other colleagues. Mm-hmm. And they, almost all three came out the same week. It was at a WP conference in Minnesota. I was like, okay. From zero to three books in one week. And of course they, they, it did get, spaced out a little bit, but they happened at the same time, twice Told Over was, by unsolicited press, which is still, they're growing and they're beginning very, very, um, good reviews and people are really loving that press. But they had just started. Mm-hmm. Uh, when they took my, my, when they took twice told over, so I had a lot of, I was sending out manuscripts. And, split Geography began as a chatbook.

Speaker 50:02

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 50:03

Um, then I asked Maria, if I could expand it to folk length, and so she said yes. So, so then they, they simultaneously happened at the same time because I, I had, um, I had, so this was 2017 and year, what I graduated 20 21, 20 22. So I had the majority of poems for both of the books by 20 15, 20 14.

Speaker 50:24

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 50:24

And so, um, I kept on redoing twice. Told over.

Speaker 50:27

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 50:28

And so then, so then I had two manuscripts because I had been writing for so much mm-hmm. And trying to find a publisher.

Speaker 50:34

So you,

Speaker 2 50:35

me, and then they both got published at the same time. So

Speaker 50:36

you mentioned, you, you just explained to them a little bit what you were getting at with Split Geography. Yeah. Whatcha getting at with this title?

Speaker 2 50:42

well, Nathaniel Hawthorne has a book twice Told Tales, and so, part of 18th Century American Letters is trying to establish the American literary voice. And so, I decided to take my Latino heritage in Latin American, Ruben and Cesar Bajo and aina, but I also claim American literature as my heritage.

Speaker 51:09

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 51:09

And so, following with Hawthorne, I was trying to say Latino literature is part of the American literary landscape, twice told over. So telling the stories of family, of past, of literature in different ways two times over.

Speaker 51:25

So in other words, if I'm hearing you correctly, are you saying that you feel like you nourish by two traditions?

Speaker 2 51:33

Yes. Yeah. And so that's why I titled the book that, to, to anchor it in the United States.

Speaker 51:40

Okay.

Poem reading: “A System of Interpretation” — grad-school jargon, dictionaries, and accessible truth

Speaker 2 51:40

Because it's, I, my work is in the United States, but being in the United States, I'm also rag. So that, and that is part of the, the, United States landscape of this duality that we all have. And as we try to formulate a United States identity.

Speaker 51:57

Okay, I'm gonna ask you to read a poem and then talk about it.

Speaker 2 52:00

Okay.

Speaker 52:01

This poem,

Speaker 2 52:02

okay. A system of interpretation. Her tics is definitely not a word my grandmother would've used as she guided my arm through the sleeve of a sweater, a pink cotton cardigan with lavender rosebuds that I never actually owned or put my arm through. So much is creation, lies, misinterpretation, and so her genetics needs to be found in a dictionary, any dictionary, even the dictionary. I won as a prize for a poem in the local paper, a poem about cemeteries growing like sunflowers in the backyards of farmhouses. I think in my attempt to understand her mimetics, I've mixed exegesis with exodus. By confusing my cousin MOIs with an ideal promised land with a never ending itch on my left heel. I'm still holding out for an explanation, a system of interpretation, balancing the various shades of green on a lawn. Midsummer. I did win a dictionary as a prize for a poem about the Midwest tractors, tractors that mow hay fields into rolls of carpet behind wire mesh fences. But I can't contain what perhaps doesn't exist or flies fast as a raven, a crow, a blackbird sitting on a telephone wire in my dictionary are many unfamiliar sounding words with Latinate roots. Most of these I can pronounce as long as breath slithers as in malif malefic, which has to do with evil or wickedness concepts, writing through divorce, good and evil, right and wrong. I identified attached a label and controlled my own universe. Dictionaries provide explanations, divisions, lines, and rationales for why one word choice is better than another. But if we pay attention, we might notice there's been a mistake in the dictionary. I won for a poem about the Midwest and rings on dead people's fingers. The M'S are spliced in with the ends. It's a factory. Second and only by noticing can I properly stand on one foot with the aforementioned dictionary precariously balanced on the top of my head. And the reason I'm laughing is'cause I know why I wrote this poem. I was in grad school. Oh. And there were people standing around having hor d'oeuvres and drinking wine and saying things like the hermetics, la la la the ex, Jesus, la la la. And I'm sitting there going, Uhhuh. Okay? And then I'd go back to my room and look these words up and like, what the heck are they talking about? And so, so that's my, my joke that I started laughing when I found out the definitions of these words. I'm like, why are they, why can't they just say it? Why can't they just say a system of interpretation? Right? And then, and then as I continued my graduate studies, I, this is very problematic because the, the truth that the university system creates, which is real, is in a convoluted language that the very people who need the truth cannot understand. So these systems of interpretation, these hermeneutics, this ex of Jesus that might free the common person from the bounds of societal injustice, they've never heard of these concepts. And so they continue being tracked. And so, so through grad school, because I forced myself to learn all these things, and that's why when I was reading the poem, I was mispronouncing those words because I've only learned them. By reading and by hearing them maybe 10 times in spoken conversation. They're not part of my vocabulary, but I completely understand them.

Speaker 55:52

But why did you decide to include it in a poem?

Speaker 2 55:54

Because I was, I was angry at this. When I, when I realized that all this knowledge was hidden away by these convoluted words, I had to write a poem. That's why I'm, that's why the, the dictionary's on my head.'cause I, this knowledge needs to be out there in the world, but it's not written in a language that is accessible and communicates. And so I do try in my poems to be precise in my language. And I don't know if people say, oh, her language use of language is too simple. But it's not, it's precise. The, because I want people to understand my ideas and my poem.

Speaker 56:37

So who's your audience for that poem?

Variation in Blues (2025): ‘When a poem falls from heaven’ and the mother-line of love

Speaker 2 56:39

Oh, I, I, I have no idea. That's the other problem. Who is my audience? I don't know. Somebody else who's in grad school. You know, I, I'm not, I'm not sure I do, I write with an audience in mind. I have to say I don't

Speaker 56:54

Okay.

Speaker 2 56:55

I don't.

Speaker 56:56

We're gonna wind this down

Speaker 2 56:57

Okay.

Speaker 56:57

By asking you to read this poem and basically similar to what we just did.

Speaker 2 57:05

Sure.

Speaker 57:07

But want you, and this by the way, just for, for documentation purposes, this is from your, from your manuscript of variation in Blue.

Speaker 2 57:15

Okay? Yes.

Speaker 57:15

Which is coming out from red hand press.

Speaker 2 57:17

Yes.

Speaker 57:17

In 2025.

Speaker 2 57:19

Okay. And so, that book Variation in Blues, that every single poem in the collection is in a set. There's variations of the theme. Mm-hmm. And the themes vary between each other. And then the idea of blue comes from, uh, Rio and his work. Mm-hmm. And then, but also blue as in sadness. Sure. So it's all wrapped in together in the variations. So when a poem falls from heaven, from when a poem falls from heaven, gallons of milk and loaves of bread expire at the corner market. The past due electric bill slides into the mailbox and the stainless steel pot from last night's dinner remains on the stove. When a poem falls from heaven, heaven, my father and aita rise up to the stars in the embers from a burning log while fish with antennae project light in the deep sea while pericos perch in rainforest canopies when a poem falls from heaven. Fog on the bay rests like memories of the homeland plate. And yes, sweet is good. I can write on the margins of a loose leaf notebook. Pick hermit crabs off the beach in San Juan Del Sur. Slip a sailboat into a bottle. Flip three tortillas on a al. When a poem falls from heaven, words repeat on billboards and headlines across cinder block walls. They rise from a cup's broken handle, A window panes cracked frame, a hand bears shattered glass and leaves crumble as birds cross sky. When a poem falls from heaven, the gendered knot speak the world as my car speeds through a yellow light at the corner of the moon and waves slide over sand crabs while flames turn into coal. Low and warm on a beach campfire when a poem falls from heaven. I listen to my mother's phrases, the vowels that cry in her ear. It is necessary to hear her life as she blinks, smiles, turns a ring on her finger. Let us focus on the words from my mother's lips. Miha, my mother never kissed me. Will you? Thank you.

Speaker 59:40

Talk to me about the ending of that poem.

Speaker 2 59:43

Oh, well, so I, I, when I read it, I, I love the ending of that poem, and right now, from our conversation, I realize why the poem that ending is so important to me. It is because, my mother is, my link to Nicaragua is my link to Spanish. So having the Spanish

Speaker 1:00:01

mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 1:00:02

Is, is very important. But then also that whole idea, her mother.

Speaker 1:00:06

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:00:06

Never kissed her. Will you? So my mother's looking for love. I'm looking for love,

Speaker 1:00:12

but the, and

Speaker 2 1:00:12

it all, it all connects.

Speaker 1:00:14

But the poem, at least that line of the poem suggests, and you can tell me if I'm barking up the wrong tree, it suggests that perhaps the relationship between your mother and her mother wasn't ideal.

Speaker 2 1:00:26

Oh, no, it wasn't. Yeah. My, well, my mother, my grandmother came to the United States, and so my mother's that last of eight.

Speaker 1:00:33

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 1:00:33

And then, she was left as an infant with her grandmother.

Speaker 1:00:37

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 1:00:37

And so their, their relationship was never, was, was they were tied together. My mother loves her mother very, very much, but it was very problematic and, and antagonistic and, and created a lot of sadness in my mother.

Speaker 1:00:52

Oh, okay. Yeah. That's, that's what I get.

Speaker 2 1:00:54

Yeah. Yeah. Created a lot of sadness in

Speaker 1:00:56

her. I mean, let me just, I mean, it's almost suggests miha ika, my mother never kissed me, will you? It almost, it almost suggests that the, the, the mother figure in this poem. Seeking something from the daughter Yeah. That she wasn't getting from the mother.

Closing reflections: the personal to the universal, writing in the body, and thanks

Speaker 2 1:01:10

Yeah. Yeah. And so, so one of the beautiful gifts my mom gave me is unconditional love. And, and I think she loved me the way she wanted her mother to love her.

Speaker 1:01:22

Ah, okay. Okay.

Speaker 2 1:01:23

Yeah.

Speaker 1:01:23

And it sounds like, as a way to wrap this up, your RA is an exploration of all of that, of the, your family history, the, the, the, the ups and downs, the disappointments, the,

Speaker 2 1:01:38

well, so in, in my graduate studies, I came across, Keats. Mm-hmm. And I really argued against that whole idea that the personal is something not that we should not do. And what, what I came to a conclusion is that we can only understand the world through our own personal history. So my poems are filled with my personal history with, Nicaragua, with Spanish, with my family, with the search for love. But hopefully at the same time, from the personal, we get to the universal.

Speaker 1:02:12

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 1:02:12

Right. So this desire for love

Speaker 1:02:15

mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 1:02:16

Comes from my mother's desire for love comes from my grandmother's desire, from love, from my father's desire, from love and from that personal knowledge.

Speaker 1:02:24

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 1:02:26

Then it's the human desire for love. So my stories are, or my poems are, which are very narrative, are and, and not, um, they're linked into the personal details of my life because those, that is my truth and from my truth, I'm hoping to create, poems that explore all of our journeys. Through, through the world in a non-intellectual, I don't wanna be in the head, I wanna be in the body. I wanna be in the people I love and in the world. I know.

Speaker 1:02:56

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 1:02:57

Instead of in the, in my brain, even though I think I do write a lot of heady poems.

Speaker 1:03:03

Well, the hermeneutics poem.

Speaker 2 1:03:04

Hermeneutics. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:03:06

A Matt note, thank you for agreeing to this interview. Okay. And I, um, I, I'm looking forward to letting my students, uh, watch it.

Speaker 2 1:03:13

Oh, okay. Thank you Francisco. It was such a pleasure to be here and to, enjoy this time with you at Notre Dame University. Thank you so much.