Letras Latinas, Part 20: A Conversation with Cynthia Cruz

Episode Topic: A Conversation with Cynthia Cruz

Born to a father whose education was severed at grammar school for field labor, Cynthia Cruz transformed feelings of shame into a determination that earned her a Ph.D. in philosophy and fueled the publication of nine poetry collections and a novella. Listen in to a conversation between Cruz and Notre Dame M.F.A. student Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk about how Cruz’s dismantling of the myth of the “late start” became a hallmark of her prolific ascent, offering a roadmap for redefining your own intellectual horizons.

Featured Speakers:

• Cynthia Cruz, poet
• Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk, University of Notre Dame

Read this episode's recap over on the University of Notre Dame's open online learning community platform, ThinkND: https://go.nd.edu/577e15.

This podcast is a part of the ThinkND Series titled Letras Latinas.

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Transcript

Welcome and Setup

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 0:06

Hi. Um, welcome, uh, Cynthia. Thank you for being here. Um, you prefer I call you Cindy, right? Or

Cynthia Cruz 0:14

you can honestly call me either one. You can even mix and match it.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 0:17

Okay, great. Thanks for letting me know. So, I'm Adriana. I'm a second year MFA in poetry. Today is February 24th, 2026. We are at McKenna Hall, uh, conducting another oral history interview for the project. Um, where another interview in the project of oral history interviews that, uh, RAs Latinas has run for over 20 years, I think, or almost 20 years. It's a liter, uh, literary initiative run by Francisco Aragon housed in the Institute of Latino Studies. And just to give a little introduction, uh, of who? Cynthia Cruzs. She's currently a visiting professor of Poetry for the Creative Writing Program here, and is the author of eight collections of poems, two Collections of Critical Essays, and one Novela. Two new collections of poems, um, have, are forthcoming or just released Sweet Repetition, which just came out in 2025 from the University of Chicago Press. And you have Twilight for forthcoming with four way books, uh, this year. And, uh, cruises also the recipient of fellowships from the Yaro and McDowell Colony, as well as a hotter fellowship from Princeton University and a Guggenheim Fellowship. Okay. And Hotel Oblivion was a finalist for the Kingsley Tufts Award and the winner of the National Book Critic Circle Award. And you have a BA in English literature and an MFA in poetry and MFA in art writing and ma in German language and literature. And, uh, you're working on, or how? I

Cynthia Cruz 1:52

finished in August, the PhD.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 1:53

Oh, congratulations. Yeah, thank you. Uh, PhD, uh, at the European Graduate School focused on Hegel and madness. So, um, just so impressive and so much to talk about. Uh, it's an honor to be interviewing you, uh, again after you were here almost 10 years ago. Uh, interviewed by another MFA student, Zach and. Back then, you had only, I think, published four poetry books, which was Ruin, glimmering, uh, room Wonder Come and How the End Begins. And so for this interview, I read, uh, some of your more recent works or recent since then, um, and also, uh, looked at this anthology that you, uh, compiled and edited called Other Music's New Latina Poetry. Uh, which I will touch on in a moment. Um, and I just, yeah, to apologize in advance that we won't cover everything that I wish we could cover. Um, so I guess I'll begin with, uh, kind of a question about, uh, like then and now, kind of a career question. Um, you talked about in the previous interview with Zach, you talked about being the first in your family. To go through higher education and how you felt you were a bit in the late in the game and playing catch up. And do you still see it that way as you were late or do you see maybe some benefits now of having arrived late and like almost 10 years down the road? Uh, what has changed? How would you summarize like these last 10 years in terms of your career?

Cynthia Cruz 3:28

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for doing this, for interviewing me and for doing all the hard work preparing. Yeah, it's a good question. As I said before, we, um, began the interview, it's just so good for me to think about the last 10 years because I don't sort of think like that. I'm just always, I'm always thinking of the future and I never think about, um, like what has happened. So it's good. So, um, so I wanna clarify too that, um, my father, um, so he was a field worker. He was one of 13. Um, his parents were, um, Mexican immigrants. Um, from Chihuahua, Mexico, and he was unable to finish grammar school. I think it's important just to point out, like it's not high school. Like he could not finish grammar school because he had to work, um, you know, on a tractor. And, um, and my mother, I didn't know, I thought she finished high school, but she recently told me, um, and this has to do with the shame right? Of class, that, um, she did not finish, um, high school either. So really I'm coming from just like the bottom. Um, in, in terms of like, um, access, right? Mm-hmm. Access to elite institutions and things like that. I don't, I don't mean that in a derogatory

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 4:34

mm-hmm.

Cynthia Cruz 4:35

Um, term. My parents are, um, yeah, they're very smart. Um,

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 4:41

yeah,

Cynthia Cruz 4:41

compassionate people. Um, but the, then the other thing I wanted to say was, um. Gosh, I forgot just to, hold on. It's gonna come back.'cause you asked these questions. Uh, no, I do. I think, I think every day I think about how I'm behind. So I just got a PhD in philosophy, um, and it's, it's late. I mean, it's quite late, um, to be doing that. And so there's always this, um, like I'm aware of the fact that I've published. I think it's because of, of petition, like nine books of poetry and novela and like all of this stuff, I am aware I'm not, um. And I'm grateful for it for sure. Um, but I also really do feel like I'm always like, um, like 15, 20 years behind. Um, and that's, there was something else I wanted to say about that. Um, ah, and I was thinking about this before that, um, so, you know, growing up the way I did in a, um, um. Working poor, I would say working poor background. Um, some, neither of my parents had finished, um, high school. My father didn't finish grammar school, so college was not an option. Like, it wasn't like it's not an option, it was not on the horizon. Mm-hmm. And that's something I think a lot about, and that's sort of what I mean about being behind is that, so philosophy obviously was not no one in my family, we didn't have books. We had some books, but they were like. Very tale book. So, um, poetry, there was no poetry. My parents, you know, didn't and do not read poetry, um, and certainly did not have access to philosophy. So, um, so that's how it's slow. So, you know, one doesn't know, one doesn't know until one comes up against. That knowledge and then you realize it. And so that's how it's been. It's been like I didn't know about my horizons or what was there until I, um, bumped up against them. And that's why also my education background is so sort of eclectic and strange because, um, I didn't know what I wanted to do, so I wanted to write. Um, my husband is an abstract painter, so I wanted to. Figure out how to articulate this language. Mm-hmm. So I went to do the SVA, um, art writing program and when I got there I started writing about German, um, female writers in silence. And I realized, wait, that's not this, that's something else. So I got the, I was gonna get a PhD in German language and literature. And then when I was there, I realized I would be limited to only writing about literature. And I wanted to write about the world, but see each thing I didn't know until I got there. Mm-hmm. And that's how it's taken so long. And so there are so many people, most of the people I come in contact with were exposed, you know, their parents taught at the university. Mm-hmm. Or, you know, they, they were already in this kind of milieu. Mm-hmm. So they already knew. Quite young that they wanted to be a philosopher or they wanted to be a poet. Mm-hmm. And so then they had this kind of access. And so that's what I mean when I say that. And I think it is, it is true. And it's sort of heartbreaking, I guess. So it's like this, um, bittersweet experience.

Latina Betweenness Anthology

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 7:34

Yeah. It's interesting that you point that out because I actually have that background where my family was kind of in arts culture and like intellectual things like philosophy. But I also relate to feeling behind and to not. Knowing, um, exactly like to having some kind of crisis in my case. Mm-hmm. That still prevented me from being able to meet those milestones where it was expected. And then the shame of, of like. That knowledge that it should be easier for me and that that makes it kind of even worse. Right. But I actually find it really inspiring to see like other people, for whatever reason, kind of doing things late. Because as someone who's doing their MFA in their thirties, like it shows me that we don't all maybe have to adapt to those, uh, timelines of capitalism and that there's a lot of other reasons why people can fall behind. Um.

Cynthia Cruz 8:32

Right, right.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 8:32

And I'm sure like we could, uh, go off on that whole tangent, but I, uh, unless you have something to add, I wanted to segue into the anthology because precisely, uh, in the introduction to this, uh, anthology of Latina poetry, you talk about like the diverse backgrounds of Latina women specifically, but I think that applies for like the Latinx community in general. You talk about it. As an identity that is like an in that inhabits this int betweenness. And that's something that also is very present just in your poetry in general. And I really appreciated how this anthology makes space for, for that. I'm certainly also not a tradition, like if that is a thing like, but I don't have the ex the, I don't tick all the boxes of what is supposed to be like the typical Latina characteristics. Um, but I wanted to ask, uh, how. Um, well also first I wanted to read a little poem from Back to the Woods that I think, uh, it doesn't mention Latina at all, but it features your dad and it ex uh, explores the topic of class.

Cynthia Cruz 9:38

Mm-hmm.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 9:39

Um, this poem called Alchemy.

Cynthia Cruz 9:43

Yeah.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 9:43

Um, and. You talk about how when I was a child, well, not assuming that it's on graphical, but when I was a child, a father would take me with him on the road. We'd sit along the crimson leather seats of the booths in the quiet diners of highway truck stops eating nothing, drinking waters and beer. His face was not his face. It was the face of his father and his father's father. Years of labor pressed like a miracle into the shimmering oracle of his dark countenance, warped and damaged like a map held underwater for centuries. We never spoke. He was like a God to me. And while, apart from being a really beautiful and evocative poem, I think it's really interesting how, uh, you touch like on the effects of class in the body and also the lineage of fathers mm-hmm. All kind of carrying this burden of labor. And so I'm wondering about like the relationship between class and Latina for you. And if you find that you can't explore these identities of like class Latina and uh. Or like being a woman, like do you, do you explore them together and inseparably from each other? Um, and just how do you tend to experience them and also, I guess explore them in your poetry?

Cynthia Cruz 11:05

Yeah, it's a good question. It's, um, I mean, it would be a symposium I guess if I were to sort of, there's just so much. So I mean, that book for me is, um, is a, um, uh. Lemme think of the word. What is it? It's, um, I can't think of the word, but I, I wrote that I, I put together that compilation because I was very, very angry. Um, so I won't, I won't get specific because I, I don't wanna be like that. But my experience has been, um, in terms of trying to, so my father's Mexican American and his parents, um, his father was indigenous and his mother is Spanish, Mexican, you know?

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 11:45

Mm-hmm.

Cynthia Cruz 11:45

Say Mexico is colonized. Mm-hmm. You know, there is that mix all. Throughout, right? Mm-hmm. So, um, so my experience, uh, so my mom's German, um, and so, you know, I'm, I'm half Mexican American, half German, and that's just, just one of the many components of my background. Um, but early on in college, when I tried to join, I forgot the name of the, you know, group of the Latin. Group on campus, I literally was not allowed in. Um, and my understanding was because the way I looked, um, which is just, it's racist, right? Mm-hmm. Because actually my, um, I look like my grandmother on my father's side'cause she's Spanish, not the German. And I mean, ob again, like I could go on forever about this. My mother is, um, fully German and she's short with dark hair and hazel eyes. So like this kind of Aryan idea is implicitly, um, it's. Right. Mm-hmm. Um, and so that was my first experience of sort of trying to join this community. And then another experience was, um, I'm just gonna try to like house it in a different way. Mm-hmm. Um, it is just this idea that there's sort of, in the United States, there's one sort of idea of what it is to be Latina and I, um, and it doesn't incorporate variations of class or there's so many countries we're talking about. Um. And different religions and, and people who've come from Europe. I mean, there's so much going on and none of that, um, is addressed. And there's this idea that it's like, you know, so I found that, I found that very frustrating. And, um, and so the, the book is a kind of, that's what I'm saying. It's like, um, glad I made it, wish I hadn't. That's kind of weird thing. Mm-hmm. So I had to make it because I just was like, I cannot deal with this anymore because, um. I was in a lot of different, I'll just say communities where there was literally a segregation between class, um, these kinds of places where people coming together, um, because of their Latina Latinx background and, um, the people, um, who were in charge of putting the thing together and inviting people and teaching us and stuff, um, were the people whose parents were in the universities, you know, um, or had been, um, there, I mean everyone grew up in the us, um, but. And then people who weren't, were like the people, you know, were maids or you know, whatever. We were the workers and you know, it was not addressed and, um, really traumatizing right? To come here and get support and then have it be re sort of, um,

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 14:05

revictimized

Cynthia Cruz 14:06

exactly. To have it sort of remarked again. Um, and so that again is why, um, it took me a very long time to decide to do this. And I'm sort of. I am conflicted about even having done it because I also feel like, um, I can't be reduced. Like I don't walk around and say I'm German. Mm-hmm. You know, so like I can't be reduced to one thing. I'm all of these different things. Mm-hmm. And when, you know, I have met people, um, who are German Mexican background and I've obviously they have nothing. Like, we have nothing in common, right? Mm-hmm. So to reduce me to that or to reduce, um. A group. So that's what I was trying to do. I was trying to actually open things up and this is why we have, um, not just people from different class backgrounds, but people from different countries and the aesthetics are also very narrative. Mm-hmm. She, Luna for example, and then much more, um, abstract experimental on the other hand. And I really wanted to, um, make a mark in that way to say like, you can't just do this one thing. But like I said, I also feel.

Stereotypes and Politics

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 15:08

You feel ambivalent because it's one of those things that like this culture kind of, uh, corners us into doing. But at the same time, I really appreciated how that came across in the introduction and also in the selection of authors. And for me, it wasn't, uh, it, it did have that opening effect of like, oh, maybe we don't have anything in common, but being Latina. But the fact that we can. Acknowledge this shared background and some shared kind of genealogies and then see how different we are does in a way, break the stereotype of the, like that Latina is just one thing.

Cynthia Cruz 15:44

Right, right, right.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 15:45

And I actually connected that to, well you also talk about how, um, and I think you also discussed this in the previous interview with Zach, how, um, this whole thing of like. Going away, stepping away from the lyrical eye or looking down on the confessional. Also from kind of this misogynist stance of oh, it's too feminine. Uh, and also the, like this kind of looking down on poetry that's too political. Like all of this you say, you talk about how it's part of, um, this luxury of the privilege of being like the neutral subject, the white male subject that. That you don't have to, um, address these things or that you aren't, or that you're not like, inevitably obsessed with these things in a way. Uh, and I agree. And then at the same time, there's an in, uh, the essay, the Glass Cage Aleida Rodriguez write. About, uh, being pigeonholed as a like Latina writer, kind of what we were talking about. Yeah,

Cynthia Cruz 16:50

yeah, yeah.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 16:51

And so I'm just thinking of these like apparently contrasting ideas.'cause she writes about how she refuses to be relegated to a ghetto of experience and ideas by people who would keep me exiled and wounded in my work because that position seems more authentic to them. Nevermind what it does to me as a human being or as a writer, which is kind of what you were saying, like, we're not all this one thing. Um, and she says, the writers who lean into this contaminate the well. For those of us whose concerns are more formal and spiritual for whom it's a dedication to a craft, we love as deeply as we can with a devotion to its needs and nuances. Like something alive we have been entrusted with and not a blunt instrument. So she's saying, uh, like, yeah, I'm not going to talk about like maybe race or, uh, like. Um, the food that my grandmother cooked or all these topics that you expect me to talk about because I actually am interested in form and just kind of contrasting that with what you're saying of like, but actually we do wanna talk about these things because we have to, because they're important to us. I don't think that these statements are contradictory, uh, but I think they create kind of a complexity to, I don't know what you

Cynthia Cruz 18:05

could say. Yeah, I mean, I guess. Clarify a little bit. I mean, I, so when I write, I don't, when I write anything I'm working on, I don't think, well, I'm going to write about this or I'm not going to write about this. Mm-hmm. I really just write, um, whatever comes to me. And so, um. So, for example, if I were, so my father grew up in the United States, right? And, um, when he was a small child, I dunno what he ate, but whatever that was, I didn't grow up with that food. So if I were to write poems about, like stereotypical ideas about what mm-hmm. Mexico is to the, um, to the white middle class reader, that would be extremely racist. Mm-hmm. And I, I, my father would be so offended, it would be horrifying if I grew up in a household where we did eat. Whatever kind of food

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 18:49

then that

Cynthia Cruz 18:49

is

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 18:49

what I would include.

Cynthia Cruz 18:50

Right? Yeah. And that's, that's what I'm saying. But I think that, um, this kind of thing that I'm talking about is kind of a deliberate use of these, um, these stereotypical, um. Um, symbolics, right? Mm-hmm. That then get the reader to understand that's what I am and not me, but other people, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and that's what, um, I'm thinking about. And the same thing with the, the sort of, um, idea with the confessional or whatever that I mean, so to, to write poems that don't. Have any relationship to the material world is political. So, you know, when I go to bookstores in the United States, and this is the majority of contemporary poetry, it's political. These, uh, the people actually, um. I mean, sometimes it's literally, you know, people are just catching, uh, Ubers or cabs or have a car, so they literally have no idea that there are actually people, you know, unlike them, uh, in the city they live in or the suburbs or whatever. Mm-hmm. But sometimes they just don't even see it. And so it is actually political and those are the people obviously in power. And so, um, it's not, not confessional, it's just not explicit, right? Mm-hmm. And so it's the same thing. And so. That took me a while to realize. Um, and so when I'm writing about whatever is in my world, it's not any different from the people who are writing about whatever sofas or couches or

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 20:09

mm-hmm.

Cynthia Cruz 20:09

I mean, I don't know what, um, it just, that

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 20:13

just happens to like get otherized because it's. Not trying to be apolitical in this like, kind of naive way. So

Cynthia Cruz 20:23

yeah, I mean, one of the things, um, when I lived in New York City, when I lived in Brooklyn, I, um, was really annoyed and sort of shocked because I would go to the McNally bookstore, um, a bookstore, my neighborhood sort of, and I, I, they have a huge poetry selection and I would go there and look at the poetry, contemporary poetry, and I could go through all of them almost. I would go through all of them, and it was as if they're, I mean, I forgot what war, I mean, we're always involved in a war and there's always people, the majority of Americans are. Barely surviving right in this country. And I would look at the poems and there was no reflection. I would get so angry. And I thought, well, how? And I thought historically, in 50 or a hundred years, when people look at, um, these books, they're going to see there's this weird discrepancy. And then I realized, no, this is exactly exactly the way it is in the United States, that people just do their own thing. And you could talk to people, you could ask people, what war are we in right now? And people wouldn't know, or do you know anyone in the military? They don't know. And so this separation is actually reflected entirely.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 21:20

Also in the art world, discrepancy. Exactly. It fits it. It's what,

Cynthia Cruz 21:24

right. And so they would look at that and say, this is exactly what it was like to live in 2026. Like

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 21:29

an anthropologist. It's like, yes, exactly. It expresses their cultural value of alienation.

Cynthia Cruz 21:34

Exactly. And so of course, they don't want to read poems that actually talk about these things because then they have to see, and this is one of the things, right? You have to see the extreme violence that's necessary for this system to function, right? That's why can't look at that.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 21:48

Well, that kind of leads me right into the next question, which is, uh, you have talked about how like you feel ambivalent toward it. Like maybe this isn't something you would do today. This you wrote, you did this anthology when, uh, you acknowledge like a specific need for it. So my next question is, uh, like what kind of anthology do you think is needed today? If you were gonna do another one, like what, uh, would you like to anize around maybe thinking about this? That we're talking about maybe, or,

Cynthia Cruz 22:19

yeah, I, so I think that's the why I'm ambivalent about it. I mean, so I started an online journal, um, with my husband. I don't know when, a few years ago we started this thing because I really saw how, um. It is really hard to get work published when you don't already have things published. I mean, right. This is

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 22:37

very

Cynthia Cruz 22:38

hard. Right. And so you kind of stay in this sort of ghetto and you can't get, and um, and I could see there were so many really talented poets who were not getting work published. So I thought, I wanna make a place where just random people, I, not random, but you know, just anonymous. People can send in work and we'll just publish it. And you don't have to know anyone. You don't have to have anything. Um, and so, so that I think is more. So, because an anthology, again, does this thing where it sort of, sorry to say this, but sort of ghetto wise is that community, right? It may, it says you are this and it already does this othering. Right? And so what I wanted to do instead is have a kind of mix where you would have, um, better known, better known, um, artists.'cause it also was visual art. Uh, and we had some very well known, um, artists and writers, and then some people who nobody ever heard of. Mm-hmm. I mean, I had, uh, we published somebody who. Wrote one phenomenal poem. And I wrote back and I said, give me more. And I was like, that's the only one I have. Right. It was like, amazing. Yeah. That's amazing. So that was incredible. So we had this mix, but there's organic. Mm-hmm. It was holistic. So this is what we had. Um, but that was very, it was, um, anyway, it's hopefully going to come back, but, um, it's a lot of. Work. So do you see how it's different? Mm-hmm. So it's not about sort of saying these are the people who are not getting published anywhere, because that's a weird thing to do. So instead to, to include like all of the work, whether it was from, you know, famous poets or people no one had ever heard of, they're at the same level. Right? They're all really great. And that does something, and this is what I'm interested in, is showing that, um, that all of us are very complicated and, um. And some people are championed and others aren't, and it doesn't, it's not always, um, meritocracy. Right. I mean, it has to do with other power structures. Mm-hmm.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 24:28

Kind of just going back more like to the works themselves.

Cynthia Cruz 24:32

Exactly. And that's what I do in workshop too. I mean, you didn't ask about that, but it is just about the work and so that's why I have ambivalence about some of this other stuff because at the end of the day, my work is hopefully being published because it's good. And not because I am X, Y, Z. And, and I also, I guess I should say, and it's like a stinger, is that I am aware of the fact that if I had early on decided to, um, you know, identify myself as a certain

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 25:01

subter

Cynthia Cruz 25:02

something yes. And, and, you know, use my father, that's what I would have to do. Mm-hmm. I mean, really exploit him. Right. And use him, um, and, and put in whatever, you know, stuff. He'd be like, I, I don't even know what you're talking about. Um,

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 25:16

yeah, that would've done a lot of the work

Cynthia Cruz 25:18

that

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 25:19

would,

Cynthia Cruz 25:19

yeah. Then I would be winning all sorts of other awards and things, but, um, but again, that's just, obviously that's never been a choice. That's just, um, sort of a horror show.

Archive and Assembly Process

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 25:31

Mm-hmm. No, I understand that. I, uh, have thought a lot about like how you can market certain aspects of your identity, but just how icky that is. And I, I totally understand what you're saying. Well, I guess to just, uh, to actually do that shift, like to the work, uh, itself. Moving on from the anthology you participated in, kind of focusing now just on your poetry, um, something that I see kind of in, um, all of these and from what I gleaned from the interview, also from your previous work is, uh, kind of this, uh, methodology of. Collecting and like the archive, uh, the importance of the archive. And, uh, you also shared a seminar with us last semester where you also talked a little bit more about like your methodology and your process. And so, uh, it's, you emphasized a lot how like. The quotidian, the mundane was really important as like the site of, uh, collecting kind of the, the raw material. And, um, I think there's also a lot of like objects and memory in your room, in your poems and room in your room. Let's, we'll talk about rings later. Um, and you also talk about, uh, like cut and paste and I think this poem in hotel. Oblivion is just like a beautiful, it just sums it up in a really beautiful way. I'm not gonna read the whole thing, but, uh, the poem Saturday, uh, in the, somewhere in the middle, says, why glean, why assemble, or how does accumulation keep. How does getting it all down do the same work as making and how is the gluing of words together, not unlike taking something beautiful apart.

Cynthia Cruz 27:17

Mm-hmm.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 27:17

And so I, uh, just wanted to ask you about like that kind of methodology of assembly and like, uh, the cutting and pasting and how it relates to. Um, yeah, to memory or to wanting to maybe ground yourself or situate yourself or if it is in that direction and just Yeah. How, like, if your methodology has evolved, um, I guess those are a lot of questions, but

Cynthia Cruz 27:41

Yeah. No, that's great. And thank you for reading that little thing. Um, so, so I guess I, I'm just thinking, um, no, I will say so. Um. So I got my, I got my training, I got my training. I was trained by a poet who taught me to make these crystalline little poems. And I think you can see that in the first collection. The poems are like sh through these little sort of perfect things. And, um, it had to do a lot with, um, getting rid of everything that was sort of messy. Mm-hmm. Um, um, excess is kind of like crystalline thing.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 28:18

Mm-hmm.

Cynthia Cruz 28:18

Um, and, and that's what I did until, um. I don't remember when it was, but I was giving a talk on Tori Dent at the I I a, um, some, and I think there was something in the talk where I realized, so I was reading over my own talk and I thought, wait, what am I talking about? And I realized that, um, that that wasn't the way. So if I'm going to talk about life. Which is what I'm doing, right? We're talking about a lived life, actual material world. Um, it's not like that, right? It's not crystalline at all, actually. Mm-hmm. And so I had this kind of, um, like, uh, destroy the master thing, right? Where the person who taught me that I sort of had on a pedestal, and that was the moment where I was like, that is not what I'm doing at all. So I went through a period where I hated that person. Um, but then, um, so I had to sort of, and so I was thinking about taking apart and putting it together. It's like I. The, the process of making those crystalline poems was very violent, actually. I mean, it was very sort of anorexic. I mean, I'd go through 44 drafts and I thought too, when I was giving this talk and Tori Dent under this, um, the pressure of these very long lines, she was writing as she was dying of aids, that, um, that. What was being cut out was really all the stuff that should be kept in with

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 29:35

all the, like the raw stuff, the, yeah,

Cynthia Cruz 29:37

you

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 29:37

talked about the embarrassing stuff. You were, exactly.

Cynthia Cruz 29:40

All of that

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 29:40

stuff, the cringy parts,

Cynthia Cruz 29:41

messy, yeah, all of that stuff.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 29:42

Messy.

Cynthia Cruz 29:43

That was all the stuff that was cut out. And so I thought that's actually stuff that should be in there. And so I think it's then been a slow process of, um. Like trying to figure out what that would look like. And so the archiving is part of it and collaging and collages and all that stuff. But now I really want sort of, it's like a combination because I really like making these kind of smashed on it so they're like smashed. And there's always something that's glitched because that's sort of what's beautiful, right? I mean the error or the failure. The mistake is what it does something. And then I think the other thing, and this goes back to. To the opening of our discussion, um, is I don't, I didn't know about the dialectic. How could I have known about the dialectic? I didn't know anything about that sort of thing. But now that's what I'm talking about in all my workshops and all my talks is that actually when you put two different things together, which is what I'm doing, you get a third thing, right? Yeah. And that's exactly what I'm, I mean, all of what we're talking about, right? So I'm not just Mexican and German. That's ridiculous. I'm not just, it is not that just I grew up poor. I mean, so. I can't be reduced to that. It's all of this stuff, but then it's still something different. And so, um,

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 30:48

yeah.

Cynthia Cruz 30:48

Yeah. So that's, that's a very long answer.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 30:51

No, that's a great answer because I literally have dialectic on both and like right after. That's amazing question. So, um, yeah, because I was talking about your methodology and that was another aspect of what you shared in that seminar. Mm-hmm. Like the Hegelian synthesis. And you talked about how there's like the dream state and then there's like the madness state, and then you kind of described the habit as like the synthesis.

Cynthia Cruz 31:16

Mm-hmm.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 31:17

And, uh, we'll talk more about repetition later, but I guess habit is like a form of repetition.

Cynthia Cruz 31:22

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 31:23

Um, and you explained it as like a form of reproduction through which we produce. More and more levels of freedom.

Cynthia Cruz 31:29

Mm-hmm.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 31:30

And um, this at first seems kind of counterintuitive to me because I'm a very chaotic person and I like things spontaneous and whatever. And so I never thought of habit as a site of freedom.

Cynthia Cruz 31:40

Mm-hmm.

Paradox as Method

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 31:41

And I think you have a lot of that in your poetry of like these kind of paradoxical ideas. Um, and I'm wondering if that relates to haggle synthesis and the dialectic. Uh, because you have a lot of like prisons where people fear relief. You have like habit as freedom. You have language that is silent and smoldering. You have like lines like, uh, like this moment is neither now nor in the future. It is both, but also something else entirely. Uh, you have ideas like one cannot notice the absence of something they do not anticipate. Uh uh, where. Like shadow is some kind of absences presence and uh, like what we don't remember lives in us forever. Like all these paradoxical ideas everywhere, which I love. Um. So what is, I wanted to ask like what is the role of paradox in your work and do you conceptualize like these tensions as paradox or more as like this both end or,

Cynthia Cruz 32:38

yeah, it's great. So I think the other thing I was thinking about with that question is that I was already doing paradox like from way back before I knew, right? So I was already doing these kinds of paradoxes. Um. But now that I'm aware of it, that is very, um, that is the dialectic, right? These two different things. And then you get something new and it isn't because it isn't just one or the other.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 32:58

Mm-hmm.

Cynthia Cruz 32:59

Right. It isn't just, I mean, I think the thing about the prison is that Shanae felt most. Like free when he was imprisoned. Mm-hmm. Which seems so completely wild.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 33:08

Mm-hmm.

Cynthia Cruz 33:08

And maybe that wasn't the entire time either, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, I'm sure at a certain point, I, I shouldn't say I'm sure, but things changed too. Mm-hmm. And that's also paradox, right? Mm-hmm. That's why I'm so resistant to, you know, like I don't wanna do another anthology. Kind of wish I never done that, because I think every time we do that thing, it's not true. Right? It's not true. We can't, um,'cause when we do reduce people, you see what happens. People get, um, you know, restrained and killed, for example, or imprisoned because of their background. Right. And so that's why I just, you know, I'm always just trying to open things up instead of reducing them. Mm-hmm.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 33:44

Like trying to like stay in the paradox kind of like

Cynthia Cruz 33:48

Yeah, because that's the thing is that we're all. I mean, all of us are very complicated. You know, if you really get to know people, you find out that it's not just this or that. Mm-hmm. You know, or my father who didn't finish grammar school, I mean, he was probably the, the, um, first example I had of someone who was a philosopher, though he wasn't trained because all he, I mean literally, so in 2003, my gosh, that's a long time ago. He had, um, there was a, uh, oh my gosh, sorry. No. I just dunno how to phrase it. Um, it was sort of a, um, he was in a very, in a surgery that should have been just like a very rudimentary surgery. Mm-hmm. And the doctor blinded him and, um, he never got his site back and he was unable to do anything about it because it was government to, to the government. Um, and my point is, is that, so, um. He was already, he's very interior, very like, always thinking, but now he doesn't see anything. And, um, and so, and other kinds of things too. But, so I asked him recently, so what do you do all day? And he, he's 96 years old and he, um, he just thinks, and he just thinks all day. And that's like, and he's always been like that, but it's more intense now because he's, um, there's so much silence and he's so, um, so much older. But, um. But he's just constantly, when I was growing up, we would, you know, talk about the Catholic church, right? We talk about politics or we talk about the world. I mean, these huge ethical questions. Mm-hmm. Right? And even without sort of the concepts or theories, he still was able to navigate. Right. So

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 35:29

yeah. Rich in our life.

Cynthia Cruz 35:30

Yeah. So, but if, if somebody were to see, you know, or just reduce something, they would just say, oh, this is a, um, I mean.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 35:38

Yeah, like, like a working class man who never went to college. So he probably has, he

Cynthia Cruz 35:42

doesn't know anything.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 35:43

Basic ideas or something.

Cynthia Cruz 35:44

Yeah,

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 35:44

yeah,

Cynthia Cruz 35:45

exactly. And that's obviously not the case.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 35:48

Yeah, no, totally. Um, and you obviously get that, like your intellectual capacity from

Cynthia Cruz 35:55

Right, where my father from

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 35:56

that too. Yeah.

Cynthia Cruz 35:57

Yeah.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 36:00

Anyway, um, yeah, this is, there's some like. There's so much more to say with each question. Um, but I guess this kind of connects to the paradoxes as well. Uh, like language and silence and kind of what you're talking about now with your dad also made me think of it like, uh, how like not seeing and being disconnected kind of from like part of the sensory world. Highlights, like, uh, more the life of the mind, which seems to be different from the life of the body, right?

Cynthia Cruz 36:32

And

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 36:33

you explore that a lot, uh, in some of these. And, uh, thinking of also silence and language, like the paradox of silence and language. Um. You quoted Durra in the last interview as saying that writing also means not speaking and keeping silent. Mm-hmm. And so you also talk a lot about like the InBetween of the, like the, what's in between the words, what's not said. Um. Yeah. And this also kind of got me thinking about the relationship between food and language.

Cynthia Cruz 37:03

Hmm.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 37:03

Because you also talk about, uh, you talk about silences refusal, but you also talk about anorexias refusal. Mm-hmm. And as also as a refusal of, of like this hyper femininity, but also a refusal of like, to just like consume endlessly, I think. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so I'm just wondering, uh. Um, also, yeah, just to add in a hotel of Libyan, in, in the poem fragment, there's also a name that says, or how, like the mind, the body ingest memory, just like how I devour everything.

Cynthia Cruz 37:35

Mm-hmm.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 37:35

And so that's also how it worked for me. Like, oh, food and language. So can you talk about that relationship between food and language, uh, and if there is one, and if it has anything to do with nourishment or with,

Cynthia Cruz 37:46

that's such a great question.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 37:48

Mm-hmm.

Cynthia Cruz 37:48

Um, so I. Uh, yeah. So I guess, you know, it's really great. Um, so one of the things that um, so great is Lahan says that the anorexic doesn't eat nothing. Oh, gosh. What is it? They eat the no, they eat the nothing.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 38:08

Uhhuh, I think I you, yeah, yeah.

Cynthia Cruz 38:10

I have that somewhere. Yeah. And so this was really illuminating for me because that's true. Um, and, and it's, it's not just about culture. It has something. Something else. And I guess I think that, um, yeah, I see the anorexic as this character that, um, is just sort of in, in a suspension, like waiting for this other world to happen. Right. So, um, and it's a resistance to the, the current contemporary world,

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 38:40

like melancholia. Maybe also like what you

Cynthia Cruz 38:43

Yeah.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 38:43

Like when you talk about this character who just like refuses to. Be in the wedding and

Cynthia Cruz 38:50

all. Right. Right, right, right. Yeah, there might be something there, but then it's also interesting with language because, um, so for lahan language is what is what forms us. And so your question is so great too, because then it made me think, I mean, so the anorexic, so in the US the contemporary anorexic, um. It does not, it is, it is trying to escape all these confines, all the symbolics that have been put, like you're this daughter, you're this, you know, you're all of these things. And really when the anorexic sort of withers away, they're not any of that anymore. Right. It's so interesting. So it really is almost like resistance to language. Right. Which is interesting. Mm-hmm. Or the way that language, um. Names and destroys, right? So like, I don't wanna be that, but they really are this, um, peripheral character, right? They're just, that's why I keep thinking of like in stasis because they're not anything new and the very strange thing too. And so anorexia is really, um, also very weird because I always thought anorexia was its own thing, but, um. So I'll, so I'm acan. So I, so and so, it's, it's a symptom, right? Mm-hmm. So there are people who are in a state of psychosis who don't eat, and they're anorexic. But when I think of anorexia, I think of, you know, the deliberate decision not to eat, like the hunger artist sort of, it's a different

40:06

thing.

Cynthia Cruz 40:07

Mm-hmm. Oh, no. And I just lost my thought, but. It will come back. Um, um, yeah,

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 40:12

yeah. Like a ref, like there's this kind of rejection of excess that maybe like the excess of like Yeah. But I also

Cynthia Cruz 40:20

wanna say the thing about devouring. Mm-hmm. That's what I was gonna say, but, um, when you, it, it, when I sit down and I talk to, um, one after another anorexic, who's in that state, like 85 pounds, 75 pounds, like, you know, whatever. Um. They're exactly the same. It's very strange what happens. This kind of production, they achieve

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 40:41

that. Like erasure of like,

Cynthia Cruz 40:42

yeah. But yeah, not just the, it's interesting. It's not just the body and it's not just that the mind is empty because the mind becomes same things. I mean, not literally, but there's a very strange thing that happens. And I don't probably think I'll ever develop anything with that, but it's, um, but that's why it's like they, they're reduced to this sort of like. Holding zone, right? Mm-hmm. Until something else. But unfortunately, usually there's not another, there's not another else. And so yeah, it's just death. Um,

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 41:13

yeah.

Cynthia Cruz 41:14

Yeah.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 41:14

And now that you've mentioned that it, I can like the, um, reduction of space like that makes me think. Rooms and prisons. Right.

Cynthia Cruz 41:24

Which

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 41:24

are so present in your work as well.

Cynthia Cruz 41:26

Right.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 41:27

Which was my next question because like obviously hotel oblivion like is, there's a lot of rooms hotel.

Cynthia Cruz 41:33

Ah, so great.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 41:34

Um, and there's also a lot of, like a hotel is like the kind of quintessential like domestic space that's not a home and it's just the room and, um. Then in that poem is where you also talk a lot about gen ed and prisons.

Cynthia Cruz 41:48

Right? Right, right.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 41:48

And so I'm thinking about like that in connection to what we're just talking about, like of silence and anorexia. Um, and so am I like right in seeing a connection between the enclosure of a room and the enclosure of the prison explored settings that are not like experienced in the negative and suffocating way that you'd expect, but. Sometimes are a site of relief or even like self-knowledge and self exploration. Um, and is it related to anorexia and the desire to be smaller or enter the idea of refusal?

Cynthia Cruz 42:22

Yeah, that's a great question. So the thing with the hotels, um, the hotel rooms, so one, one chooses freely to. I mean, in, in my world, right? One chooses freely to stay in a hotel and you can move from room to room. Mm-hmm. So that, that's important. Mm-hmm. Right choice. And, um,

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 42:39

not in a prison.

Cynthia Cruz 42:40

Yes. No. So I think that's really important. Mm-hmm. And even the anorexic has made this decision. So I think the determination is really important. And I was thinking about, um, oh gosh, I forgot her name, but, but, um, the. Um, so I forgot. It's like the hug machine for the autistic, the, oh, temple Grandin. I created this thing. Mm-hmm. Because she, you know, there's this, um, need to be in a, a space, like, to be sort of compressed is what, um, is comforting, right? Mm-hmm. And so there's something about that too, right? This kind of a,

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 43:15

in a cocoon kind

Cynthia Cruz 43:16

of. Yes, exactly. So there's something about that, but this is not the same. And actually my, um. Um,

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 43:21

mm-hmm.

Cynthia Cruz 43:22

Current, um, philosophical project is on, it's, it's on this whole big thing, but it's, um, looking at how asylums never were shut. Mm-hmm. Um, so to my horror, I've found out that in Germany there are still asylums, people are still held in solitary confinement. Um, people who are, um, held in a psychiatric institution can be held, are held in a solitary confinement. Um, I discovered for three and a half months or longer without escape, and right, this looks, this seems completely like how could this happen? But in fact, it, it does happen. There are these laws that protect the doctors and the government. Um, they're in place to protect the patient. But that's not what they're there for. They're actually there to protect the doctors and the state. Um, and so that is, you see, so it's just, I just wanted to say that that is not, so you might decide, you know, I'm a visual artist. I'm a writer. I'm going to be in this space. I'm gonna close the door and be alone. Mm-hmm. And that gives me freedom. But when it is not determined, and it's used as a form of punishment, this has to do with old ideas of the mentally ill, however you wanna call it, being criminals. And this is actually how they're allowed to do it. It's because they say that the patient may one day be a danger to themself or someone else. Not now. Like sometime, I mean, couldn't we? All right. And that's why they can be held in solitary confinement. Um, so it's important to sort of separate and that's where the Jeanne gets very interesting and that's why I say I'm sure that it's a moving thing, that it wasn't like he didn't live in prison forever. It is like a thing.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 44:55

Yeah. And it's, it's, uh, great that you point out that distinction because, um. I was focusing more on the connections, but that's a really important distinction and, um, just, yeah, it's a really important distinction. But I do think there is, uh, at least in this book, um, a very striking and, uh, and. Generative idea of that made me see that in a different way. And I think I've also, when I did a queer and feminist prison studies class, I do remember reading like some kind of mad studies, uh, like articles where, where some people described also some like, obviously asylums are verbal, but where there was like a sense of. Well, at least here, like I found people like me or like I, like, couldn't, didn't have to worry about like existing or something like there was. So I do think there is space for, um, for exploring the different ways in which people can at least temporarily feel some kind of relief in confinement. And I think that was, uh, something that I appreciated for sure. Um.

Cynthia Cruz 46:12

Yeah. And I guess the other thing too is that the, the hotels are like, um, they're these sort of no way zones. I forgot what they're actually called, but I've written about them, but I forgot. But like airports, right? And I really love these spaces because they're spaces that are in public, but they're aside from like the real world. And so like a mall can be like that, you know these mm-hmm. And hotels are like that. So these kinds of, um, no spaces or in between spaces, but, um. Uh, prisons and asylums are something separate.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 46:43

Yeah,

Cynthia Cruz 46:43

but I just wanna say too that, that you are right, that, that there is this, it's paradox, right? Mm-hmm. That being enclosed, um, can be very freeing, but

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 46:53

mm-hmm.

Cynthia Cruz 46:53

It can also be detrimental. It can. Destroy a person, but it has to with determination. Like when I make a decision to go into a closed cell for a month so that I can paint a painting by myself mm-hmm. That's totally different than being put in as a form of punishment.

Sweet Repetition Explained

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 47:06

Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, it's an important nuance to not like say that, or to not have it be used as an argument like in favor of imprisoning people or something. And well, uh, to start to, uh, go towards our conclusion. I. Wanted to touch on your new collection, sweet Repetition. And my last two kind of, uh, questions.'cause sometimes I ask more than one. Uh, in the question, uh, is precisely about the two words, uh, that from the title. So first, uh, I just, I have to ask about the word sweet because looking at your other poems, I mean, this is obviously in the title, but I noticed, uh. How you use the word sweet a lot, uh, in other poems you did before. And, um, it always appears in ways like, again, paradoxical that I wouldn't expect. Like some examples from different poems, you, uh, write about a sweet kind of violence in a tale of Olivia and a, a sweet smell of prison water and to Woods, the sweet song of poverty, uh, the Sweet un Filthy Water and Drugs. Um, so can you tell us, like, have you noticed that? I think that's

Cynthia Cruz 48:25

so great. No, I haven't.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 48:26

What's your relationship with the word sweet in this

Cynthia Cruz 48:29

setting? Yeah, no, thank you so much. These questions are so good because I didn't notice like being in a workshop. Um, but so, so this, um, comes out of, or came out of my dissertation and, um, and so, so for both, um, Lecan and Freudian psychoanalysis, right? It's all about, um. Well, and hagel, right? So repetition is not great.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 48:53

Mm-hmm.

Cynthia Cruz 48:53

Right? So we repeat things that we haven't worked through. So, um, so that's how we get stuck, right? But, but also, um, you see that in our culture and capitalism, everything is just a repetition of the same thing. It's the same music, the same, you know? Mm-hmm. Just, um, the same thing over and over. And so repetition is really, it's really awful. And it's the, like, habit that gets stuck. Mm-hmm. I mean, in my dissertation. I actually call it capitalist habit. So habit, actually, capitalism takes the Hegelian concept of habit, which can create freedom. Mm-hmm. And makes this kind of stuck kind of thing. So we are, we're all sort of stuck and it's like we're all stuck in this type. Like in a loop. Yes, exactly. And we can't get out. Right. So this is, um. So you're right that it's actually repetition is not good, but the only way out is actually a form of repetition. Right. It's actually another form of repetition. And so that's what the sweet repetition is. So the collection is all about, um, different forms of repetition and interruption. Mm-hmm. And so that's the thing is there has to be a kind of, um, an interruption that changes repetition. Otherwise, all you have is these. Like crazy loops that never move. And so that's what I'm, so this collection was, is structural. So it's all about the, the repetitions with the interruptions and trying to create like a, um, a rupture in the repetition. And so this is different than the other ones because like I said, it's all, um, it's structural. I mean, the other ones are too, but this is primarily that. And that's why it's sweet repetition, because it's the hope that we can have, I can create a repetition. That, that changes our

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 50:30

petition instead of, instead of icky.

Cynthia Cruz 50:33

Right. Exactly. Exactly.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 50:34

Yeah.

Cynthia Cruz 50:35

So that's what the aim was. Yeah.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 50:36

Okay. Yeah, I just noticed, like, I just like, I do feel like first reading this and then reading those like this really set me up for like pattern recognition because there's so much repetition. Right.

Cynthia Cruz 50:47

And

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 50:48

I also, uh, read this first for my workshop with Joelle and did like a presentation on it and I counted like the repetitions of all these, that's words

Cynthia Cruz 50:57

amazing.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 50:57

Yeah. Because I was like. I got into this very, uh, like detective e mode of reading and so that's why I think this suite like just kept sticking out for me when I went back to your other books. And I see so much of the, of the things you explore here in all of the work and so. I, I see what you mean about it being structural because it feels like, it's almost like a reshuffling

Cynthia Cruz 51:20

Yeah.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 51:20

Of a lot of things. And so I guess, uh, that takes us to the repetition part. Uh, and, um, like this has been a recurring interest of you, of yours for a long time. In the interview, nine years ago, you also talked about this, um. You repeat, you have like several poems with the same title, not just here.

Cynthia Cruz 51:41

Right, right,

Not Knowing as Politics

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 51:41

right. Like you were already doing that. Uh, there's so many motifs words, uh, even whole lines like that within the collection. Like you kind of reformulate or echo and like come up in different poems. Um, like even in guidebooks for the dead. You, there's so many, like the word drag comes up a lot, which is like echoing kind of the previous collection. So there's all this like intertextuality within your work as well, and that I think connects to repetition. Um, and then you have a lot of poems that like directly allude to repetition from before, like Kingdom of Dirt, fatigue, empire, or register. Um, and in the previous interview you talked about how repetition creates accumulation, but it is also negation. Mm-hmm. Like you say it once and then saying it again, kind of denies it in a way. And also in, uh, disquieting essays on silence, you wrote that repetition conveys what cannot otherwise be relayed. This stuttering performs not knowing and holds open the space, resisting the reductive binary that results from knowing. And so, um. I guess like, uh, this poetics of not knowing as a non commodifiable mode and like kind of as something that goes against these binaries and these capitalist values, would you say this is one of the political dimensions of your work in some sense?

Cynthia Cruz 53:07

Yeah. That's so interesting. I mean, I think that that's, um, so it's one of them I guess, but, but I think, um. Yeah, I mean, so the thing about, I I, I am just not sure what to say'cause you just, you just said it all so beautifully, but just that, um, it's so funny to hear you quote myself from, you know, disquieting because I was saying things that I'm saying now and I didn't know I was already, and I think that's sort of a pattern. What we were first talking about is I sort of. Holistically or organically knew certain things, but I didn't have a theory for it. Mm-hmm. So the thing about repetition being, you know exactly what I said and just quieting, I mean, this is Freud, right? This is, and this is why like the anorexic keeps not eating is because there's something that that symptom is saying, and that's the thing, right? It actually, the symptom is of language. There's something that the symptom is saying, but they can't get it yet. And so that's the thing that they have to get the language and that's what psychoanalysis does. And then you're not. Anorexic anymore. Um, but it is, I guess I would say it is, um, political because I feel like in our society, everyone knows everything already. And it's very difficult to teach a workshop when everyone already knows everything already, for example, or to teach. Um, everyone can't know everything. I mean, this is ridiculous, right? But, um, this is something, I guess it's a kind of perversion, right? So if you know something that actually short circuits the ability. To know anything. Right. If you think you know everything. Mm-hmm. And, um, and so is, so with psychoanalysis and Hagel, the whole idea is that in order to enter anything, I mean, Hagel wrote the Phenomenology of Spirit. That whole book is about like, in order to learn anything, you have to undo everything you knew. Mm-hmm.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 54:47

That's

Cynthia Cruz 54:48

the whole book. Right. Um, but he does that elsewhere too. You have to really, really enter everything with I, you know, whatever. I know. I'm just gonna put to the side. Okay. And then, then you can learn things. And it's so important. And it also is really important too. I'm thinking again, again about the workshop and you have people, I'm not talking about my workshop, right? Just exact and just in general, right?

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 55:09

Disclaimer.

Cynthia Cruz 55:10

Yeah. I'm not talking about my people just in general, right? So you have people from different backgrounds, they identify d differently. Mm-hmm. Um, they come from different class backgrounds, different um, cultural backgrounds, religion, everything. Right? Everyone knows different things. And so, um, the only way we're going to be able to read someone else's work. With open eyes is to set aside everything I know. Otherwise, you're going to workshop and you're gonna say, I don't like this.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 55:32

Yeah, no.

Cynthia Cruz 55:33

Or I don't, I don't relate. And then it's complete. That's actually very violent. Right. So this is one of the, I'm going back to how I do the workshop. Mm-hmm. Is that really, you just talk about the work and then it already takes care of like the setting aside, because all of your personal aesthetics just don't, they don't matter. Right. And so, um. Yeah, so I guess a lot of you didn't ask me this. A lot of my teaching undergrad and grad, I have all these kind of little, um, prompts or tools that I use that just sort of short circuit knowing mm-hmm. And um, people, so I don't have to get into the whole thing about that. Mm-hmm. It just already does that

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 56:08

You put them in that like state kind of like,

Cynthia Cruz 56:11

yeah. So I have all these prompts that, um, I give the undergrads because I think. Grad students won't do it, but the undergrads will do it. And they're so, it's so amazing. I have all these prompts that, um, that allow them, so like Mad Libs or after poems or mm-hmm. You know, have them do, um, not really process, but they'll look at a painting and write whatever, whatever they see. And so it really is just like, almost like stupid. You're just doing this very, um, rudimentary thing. But when we do very rudimentary or mechanical, um, movements that. Um, freeze the mind.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 56:46

Mm-hmm.

Cynthia Cruz 56:46

And then the unconscious comes in and then the most amazing work enters.

56:50

Mm-hmm.

Cynthia Cruz 56:51

And so like that, that short circuits me having to give like a very long lecture on this whole thing and they just access the thing immediately. It's amazing.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 56:58

It's instead of, uh, instead of telling you, just show'em. Right.

Cynthia Cruz 57:03

Exactly.

Closing Poem and Farewell

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 57:03

And I do think that's political because it goes beyond like the workshop space or even talking about artistic creations, like just assuming that you don't know. What the person's life is like. It just helps, like, just to have any kind of dialogue about like, just practical life things. And so that's what I think was, is really, um, political in a sense that like, is not the typical way that we think of like the, the way that, uh, art can be political, I guess. And I guess like we're coming up on time, even though I could keep talking to you and like I anticipated that there's so much more to cover. Uh, but I just wanted to ask you if you would, uh, be willing to read, um. A poem or two for, just to conclude, uh, maybe from your new collection.

Cynthia Cruz 57:55

Oh, I actually don't think I can because I, um, I can't see anything. Not, not like, like I'm not blind, but I like,

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 58:02

I need reading glasses. You don't have glasses And I literally didn't bring, is there one, you know, by heart?

Cynthia Cruz 58:07

No, I don't. Isn't that terrible?

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 58:10

Okay. Yeah, that's fine. I mean, maybe I can read it, uh, just so that the audience gets a tasted

Cynthia Cruz 58:16

Yeah, you can just pick whichever one.

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 58:18

Yeah.

Cynthia Cruz 58:18

I literally, I thought, thought of it, and then I didn't bring them with me, so,

Adriana Toledano Kolteniuk 58:21

oh, well it's a shame. But I mean, people can also look for your readings in the, your recent reading in the YouTube of the Creative Writing program. Yeah. Uh, where they can hear you reading. I just, I'm gonna read this really short one called Fragment, uh, Dora because it has a loop in it and I just love it and I love how it ends. Uh, so this is fragment Dora, and it's goes Dora on her back on the soft leather couch dreaming annihilation circuitous. The drive and its liquid lipids loop looping back endlessly to its ruinous and glorious origin. So I guess we'll end with that. And thank you so much for being here. This was a delightful talk and hopefully we can continue talking about some of these things, um, while we're both still here.

Cynthia Cruz 59:17

Yeah, me up. Thank you so much. This was wonderful. Thank you.