Minding Scripture, Part 8: Sickness and Healing

Episode Topic: Sickness and Healing

This episode of Minding Scripture reflects on sickness, healing, and isolation in the Bible and in the Qur’an, with conversation around the global Coronavirus pandemic. What sources of hope do we find in the Abrahamic traditions for a time of sickness and quarantine? How might these three traditions interpret the pandemic and the quarantine religiously?

Featured Speakers:

• Tzvi Novick, University of Notre Dame
• Mun’im Sirry, University of Notre Dame
• Francesca Murphy, University of Notre Dame

Read this episode's recap over on the University of Notre Dame's open online learning community platform, ThinkND: https://go.nd.edu/7af572.

 This podcast is a part of the ThinkND Series titled Minding Scripture. 

Thanks for listening! The ThinkND Podcast is brought to you by ThinkND, the University of Notre Dame's online learning community. We connect you with videos, podcasts, articles, courses, and other resources to inspire minds and spark conversations on topics that matter to you — everything from faith and politics, to science, technology, and your career.

• Learn more about ThinkND and register for upcoming live events at think.nd.edu.
• Join our LinkedIn community for updates, episode clips, and more.

Transcript

Scripture and Interpretation

1 0:19

Scripture shapes the lives of millions of people around the world, yet scriptures, both the Bible and the Quran only gain meaning when they're interpreted by the human mind. Minding scripture, a podcast from the Department of Theology at the University of Notre Dame explores the meeting of reason with the Scriptures of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. My name is Gabriels Reynolds and I am professor of Islamic Studies and Theology in the World Religions World Church Program at Notre Dame. And joining me are the co-founder of the project professor Francesca Murphy.

Speaker 2 0:53

Hello.

1 0:55

And the other co-founders, professor Novik, welcome.

Speaker 3 0:58

Hello

1 0:59

and Professor Muri. Hello friends. In recent months, the entire world has been affected by the Coronavirus pandemic. Many have fallen ill and many have recovered, and we too in this podcast, are affected in a much more modest way in as much as we are recording from, from home individually and using simple equipment. And so you may notice the sound quality. But hopefully the conversation will still be interesting, if not perfect. We'd like to reflect in particular on this question of sickness, in light of the Coronavirus pandemic, and to do all of this from the perspective of scripture. In other words, we're going to ask the question today, what do the Bible in the Quran have to say about sickness and healing? Let's start then with sickness. We're gonna start with, I guess, what is a, um, peculiar question perhaps for many people in the contemporary world, but one which is relevant in the Bible and the Quran, which is a question of judgment. Can sickness from the Bible and the Quran ever be an affliction from God? Maybe we'll start with use on that.

Speaker 3 2:06

Sure. Well, so there are biblical passages that ascribe sickness to the agency of God in so many words. So for example, there's a long list of covenantal blessings and curses blessings. If one heeds the commandments and the covenant curses, if one violates it first in Leviticus and then in Deuteronomy, and in that long list of continental curses that seal the deal in Deuteronomy, God is envisioned as punishing with illnesses. In Deuteronomy 28, verse 27, that if the Israelites don't heed the commandments, then the Lord quote will smite you with the boils of Egypt and with the ulcers and the scurvy and the itch of which you cannot be healed. In verse 28, the Lord will smite you with madness and blindness and confusion of mind. So the Bible does imagine the possibility of sickness as a punishment from God. Now, how exactly we're gonna coordinate that biblical vision with our notions of nature and science, the germ theory of disease. That's of course a complicated question.

1 3:07

I even wonder if, um, most Jewish readers saw those passages as, I don't know, perhaps like a carrot and stick and that this is God being hyperbolic or giving possible theoretical or even metaphorical punishments. But I mean, or did they understand that this would really happen? You really could get the boils of Egypt and ulcers and all these things.

Speaker 3 3:29

Historical perspective. I mean, speaking in terms of the Bible and its original audience, I don't see any reason why the original audience wouldn't have construed it literally, and, and why even believers nowadays, to a certain extent, if they're going to credit God or conceive of God as someone who intervenes in a substantial way in history, who takes the people out of Egypt? He is a God who can return them to Egypt, as it were, or return them to the sickness that characterizes Egypt just before the Exodus. So I think there, there is a kind of a commitment to the possibility of God as an agent of sickness that's just, uh, part and parcel of conceiving of, of God as, as, as, as, as not an abstract force or a holy transcendent force, but, uh, a force that intervenes in history. But again, that creates the question. How do we square that with, uh, conceptions of nature and science? Right, right.

Speaker 4 4:27

The, the standard belief, uh, among Muslim is that both sickness and healing are coming from and on this issue in chapter six. Right. Uh, sur verse 17, in If God touch you with or Harm. It remove except he and the, the Koran continues saying well in. And if he you with good, then he's able to do all thing. I think the idea here is that to show that God is all powerful, that both sickness and it cure are in God's hands and power.

1 5:19

May, maybe it's a unfair question because how could, you know, um, with a great diversity of the Muslim community throughout the world, what most responses are to the current crisis. But I mean, would it be one possible opinion among the range of opinions to say today that in any sickness, not necessarily Corona, this could be God's punishment, affliction for, for some sin or some evil, or what, what would, what would a Muslim reader of such passages, how would they apply it today?

Speaker 4 5:48

I think it seemed to me that the Quran does not establish clear causality between God and sickness, and nowhere in the Quran is disease mentioned as an expression of gut anger, or wealth or punishment. It seemed to me that both, you know, sickness and health are part of just continue of being, you know, the whole human existence is journey back and forth between two poles of either healthy or sickness.

1 6:22

So in as much as God is creator and the origin of everything, sickness must be ascribed to him.

Speaker 2 6:30

I think that in Christianity. 2000 years of metaphysic and philosophy understand that God is omnipotent and therefore in in, in some long term sense. He is the author of everything that happens. So theoretically in Christianity and perhaps as you seem to say also in Islam, theoretically, God is the long term author of sickness. In everyday life within Christianity, I don't think I've ever heard God referred to as the author of sickness,

Speaker 3 7:10

right?

Speaker 2 7:11

Um, it's obviously an abstract theoretical reality, simply because God is omnipotent in both religions. But in the New Testament, one of the preeminent activities of Jesus is healing the faith,

Speaker 3 7:25

right?

Speaker 2 7:26

And so people are constantly calling on God to heal them. I mean, that's like everyday people praying for healing from sickness because we think of God as a healer. But within Christianity, and also I think within Islam, you don't think of God as sender of pestilence. It's just not part of the picture that comes from the scriptures.

Speaker 4 7:51

Even in the Quran for instance, it seemed that the Quran pays more attention to the source of healing than the source of, you know, sickness in the sense that. Good health and recovery from sickness are in God and alone. So it seemed like the emphasis on the source of healing rather than the source of sickness.

Speaker 3 8:12

I would add also, I mean, it seems to me that in the, in the Hebrew Bible, you know, as a source for, uh, for Jewish thinking on the question,

Speaker 2 8:18

the plagues,

Speaker 3 8:19

God says

Speaker 2 8:19

the plague,

Human Condition and Blindness

Speaker 3 8:20

right? And, and then they're immediately after the exodus as well. The Israelites are afflicted with a water source that is bitter. Uh, and then God, uh, underscores that if the Israelites obey the commandments, then I'll put none of the diseases upon you, which I put upon the Egyptians, the very same verse. Imagines God as afflicting the Egyptians. But interestingly, God is described here as the healer, uh, kind of an an nominal by which I don't mean purely in terms of words, but I mean that is his characteristic. He's the healer. I did wanna mention just one other thing in terms of kind of thinking about. The idea of disease from God. I mean, one other way of approaching this question, I think from a scriptural foundation is perhaps less in in terms of causality and more in terms of character, in the sense that it's characteristic of human beings to fall ill, and there are a number of reflections. In Judaism occasion by the Bible on sickness as characteristically human. One of the terms for sickness or for a degree of sickness in, in a biblical Hebrew is anush, uh, which may be, uh, related to anush, which is one of the terms for human beings. But in any case, there is this understanding that it's characteristic of the human condition to fall ill. And specifically of human beings. And this is one of the,

1 9:36

wouldn't necessarily be. A Jewish perspective, a, a result of any fall. It's just, that's, that's the nature, that's human nature. You, you get sick,

Speaker 3 9:45

right? The, the, the notion of a, I guess, of a, of a fall, there is, uh, some kind of speculation about the origin of sickness and, and, and there is a conception that sickness arises, uh, later in the game, that kind of old age, uh, only arises with Abraham, uh, and sickness arises later, still with Isaac. But there isn't a kind of a well-developed, uh, ideolog or myth of the origin of sickness.

1 10:07

So in the, in the New Testament, we have a number of cases of blindness, old Testament or Hebrew Bible as well. Of course, we'll speak about maybe the case of Tobet later, but I wanted Francesca to touch on this one passage where the origin of a man's blindness seems to be at issue. That's in John chapter nine, verse two and three, where it's Jesus's own disciples who go to him and say, rabbi, who sinned this man, or his parents that he was born blind? And then of course Jesus answered it was, it was not that this man sinned or his parents, but that the works of God might be made manifest in him. I dunno if this is a best passage to get out on the origin of blindness, but

Speaker 2 10:44

I think that Jesus is referring to the miracle that he's going to perform.

1 10:49

Right? Right.

Speaker 2 10:50

And so, um, he, he was born blind so that Jesus could heal him so that the works of God could be manifest in him. I think as I understand that passage. He is not born blind because God blinded him. Right. He was born blind so that he could be healed by Jesus, or the words to be manifested

1 11:12

was a special role to play within salvation history.

Speaker 2 11:15

Exactly.

1 11:16

Interesting.

Speaker 2 11:17

But I think Jesus is generally denying the idea that, uh, people are sick or blinded because of the sins or the sins of their parents. I think so that the idea of an inherited sin, meaning that you are born blind, he seems to be denying, and I'm also looking at Luke 13 where Jesus said, I tell you, unless you repent, you will perish. Who died when the tower in S fell on them. Do

Speaker 3 11:52

you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you no, but unless you repent, you two will all perish.

Speaker 2 12:00

So I think his idea is simply that all are guilty. And you can't say, well, this guy is blind because he is more guilty, and this guy had a tower fall on him because he was even more guilty and even more guilty guy with Lsy for his whole life. I think Jesus seems to be saying, you're all guilty. You all need repentance. And

1 12:21

so we can't have any shot Inre. No,

Speaker 2 12:24

I don't think so. Not according to what he seems to say in these two passages.

1 12:28

No. Okay. Well, you know, another aspect of the world's experience of the Coronavirus is of course, in addition to just the sickness and the tragic results of the virus itself. But there's the social results as well. And the way we're living has changed, at least for the near future because we're all familiar with this term social distancing, which I had never heard before recently. And we're all trying to practice it. We're practicing it on minding scripture today. And so it can't help if you're speaking about scripture and social distancing to think about questions of leprosy and um, which is present in the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, and as we'll see in the Quran as well. And I understand that there are specific restrictions about the entry of someone with leprosy, although three, you were correcting me before the program. That the Hebrew word couldn't actually be leprosy in this context. Um, but there's some sort of social distancing right in the restrictions and guidelines in the penit about how to deal with someone with whatever disease. It's,

Speaker 3 13:34

so we do find a, uh, discussion of quarantining and connection with this disease, typically translated as leprosy in Hebrew, Tara, though leprosy came to the, to this geographic area, uh, somewhat later than the Hebrew Bible. The Old Testament, and so it must refer to some other, but we do find quarantining hearing

1 13:56

That's interesting. Sorry to interrupt. Sure, sure. But I mean, in older Bible translations, I think the word leprosy is used in in,

Speaker 2 14:03

yeah. Moses' skin goes white. I remember that.

Quarantine and Passover

Speaker 3 14:06

Right, right. Yes. I mean, you, you do find, uh, it, it is, uh, it is definitely associated with whiteness in the Bible itself, and hence the SubT is gonna be, uh, the source of this translation as leprosy rooted in the, in the, in the notion of whiteness. But the technical disease that is identified with leprosy, or that we see in, in later texts in the New Testament and afterward identified with leprosy, uh, is not the one, uh, that you have. In the Old Testament, in the Hebrew Bible, but, uh, but right. But here's another case where, uh, kind of have this, this interesting, these interesting reflections on the relationship between, uh, sickness and sin or, uh, a theology of sickness. And it's interesting that the Bible itself, and it seems here that it's intervening in a kind of a broader ancient near Eastern conversation. The Bible itself, this is a point that biblical scholars have made. Uh, seems to want to sideline any notion of the demonic element to, uh, to this disease, uh, and to treat it almost clinically in terms of diagnosis and quarantine. Uh, but it does speak of a ritual defilement, so it does have a kind of a, a religious character. So there is one, uh, kind of precedent as it were for quarantining in the Bible, though. I'd say the, the other one that, uh, that comes to mind. Immediately, and that is, uh, quite timely given the fact that, uh, the festival will Passover begins next week, is the quarantining, as it were. That occurs in the story of the exodus from Egypt, where the Israelites are sheltered in their homes, placing blood on their doorposts and lentils, uh, so that the destroyer when it comes, when it's released throughout Egypt to kill the firstborn of Egypt, uh, doesn't visit their homes. So that's, that's one that's been, uh, reflected on quite a bit, uh, under circumstances,

1 15:52

right? Right. Yeah. I never conceived of that as a possible case of, of quarantine. But they're protecting themselves and not just separating themselves. They're, they're protecting themselves from the destroyer

Speaker 3 16:05

within, I guess a, um, a, a, a religious kind of framework. Thinking about precedence for quarantine. I mean, I guess the, the question is really what is, uh, what's happening when we make that link between the, that one in Egypt? I think anyone is, uh, you know, making. Facile claims that we are, you know, simply continuing biblical practice or that the coronavirus is God's punishment on the world from which we're sheltering ourselves. I think there's a, you know, a more general, uh, sense of kind of finding even in these conditions, a kind of way of conforming to biblical history and, and to the foundations of the religion. Uh, kind of a source of, of hope in the sense that this sheltering, uh, in the midst of danger is precisely the point which. In the Passover ritual within Judaism, no one sings the praises of God for salvation. Precisely in the midst of this danger, the celebration of the exodus happens before the Exodus, right? It happens in the evening of the affliction of the firstborn, in the midst of this danger. So I think the kind of analogies that the Jewish communities say would naturally be drawing to the Exodus story is a framework through which to kind of orient oneself toward. The possibility of, or the, uh, a horizon that looks beyond our current, uh, kind of distressing conditions. That is beautiful.

Speaker 2 17:23

Yes. A lot of Catholics are angry because of the bishops, uh, shutting the churches and so on, and there's no liturgy. If we come down to Easter. Easter,

1 17:35

right.

Speaker 2 17:35

And the Bishop of Aberdeen gave a 20 minute talk about how to think about all of this. He gave the Exodus as one example of a lockdown or quarantine, and a second example he gave was when the disciples were all locked in the upper room and then Jesus appears to them. And the reason for drawing these analogies. Is simply to say, as V said, don't kick against the pricks and complain and, and act as if this is an utterly irreligious situation that has never happened before. Unprecedented. And your bishops are imposing on you something, or the government is imposing on you something which is entirely country to your religion. This isn't entirely country to our religion. The Jews locked themselves down. And the disciples were locked and everything, so it's not contrary to our religion. I think that would be the reason for drawing the analogy.

1 18:40

This would be helpful with my kids who complain that they're imprisoned and they're stuck with, with me as an inmate. Um, so, but back to leprosy, um, a bit. I just wanted to hint at least that of course there are lepers in, um, the gospels. In fact, the gospel authors seem to be particularly interested in the cases of, of the lepers and also in the Quran as well. So in Quran sort three, uh, there's an allusion to, if we understand abrea, the word word there, the Arabic word there as leprosy to leprosy. Uh, that's repeated in Quran five, I think. Yes. So Jesus, Jesus is connected to lepers. That that's interesting, isn't it? The connection that both the New Testament and the Quran wanna make between Jesus and lepers.

Speaker 2 19:27

That's right. I think that in the New Testament context, the point that's always being made is that he's above the law because he's the Lord of the law. So in the case of any of the Healing Miracles, the point is simply being made, that he's showing the power of the creator over the creation. And that's the point in all of the healing miracles with the lepers. I think it simply like an extreme example of someone so ill, that they're untouchable and Jesus can touch them because he is inherently immune.

Break and Podcast Plug

Speaker 3 20:10

I I wanted to just mention, I think, uh, I mean to some, to some extent, the analogy to these quarantines is, uh, I think a little bit, uh, imprecise in the sense that right, the leper is precisely the, uh, the outsider. What the biblical passages, the, the from, from the Hebrew Bible, in any case kind of highlighted, uh, with real pathos is the loneliness of the leper. And that kind of matches our current condition. But on the other hand, in our current condition, it's a, there's a general social isolation and the logic of it is. Save lives. And so the social isolation is, is not only, I mean for those who are sick and quarantining, but healthy as, as a means of saving lives or in other words, as a form of healing. So here, this would lead us kind of in, in a different direction in terms of thinking through these religious traditions, in their scriptural foundations to, uh, kind of reflections on. Importa measures, sometimes extreme measures to be taken to save lives and in particular to, to act to help and poor and weak, uh, right, in terms. Right. The elderly and the immunocompromised. That, that's where, I guess there's a little bit of analogy between social isolation per se, and the quarantine are being envisioned.

Quran as Healing Word

1 21:21

Right. Well, this is gonna help us transition towards our responses to sickness. We'll get to the second part of our episode on minding scripture. So we're gonna have a little pause here, but this is a good time for you friend to rate highly minding scripture on your app there. Also to add a review. Why not? Um, I'd also like to mention another podcast produced by Notre Dame. In fact, by Faith MD called Everyday Holiness, which is an outreach of the Notre Dame Alumni Association, which captures the lives and stories of people in the Notre Dame family. To show that the pursuit of Christian holiness takes place in many occupations and walks of life. So if you're interested in another podcast, give a look at Everyday Holiness and we'll be back in a moment. Welcome back to Minding Scripture. We were just speaking about the episodes in the New Testament, which allude to the healing of lepers and it's an opportunity to turn to other cases of healing. And I'd like to ask specifically about the, the Quran and, uh, moon. There are some passages in the Quran in which the Quran itself seems to be the agent of healing. So, um, whereas the New Testament has Jesus as healer, the Quran seems to have the Quran as healer. Could you, um, comment on that?

Speaker 4 22:53

Sure. Yes. So yeah, the Koran referred to itself as healing. So the word, the Arabic word is shi. And describe God as the ultimate healer. So, for instance, the Koran mentioned Abraham saying this is, uh, I think in chapter 26 saying that when I'm I, he's the one who killed me. So the word healing of shifa is used a few times in the Quran when referring to itself. So for instance, that we sent down the Quran, that which is healing and mercy. So the word is used there is. So sometime the word healing is mentioned along with guidance, but the koan to refer to mental health, like healing the heart of believing people, although, you know, Muslim develop the idea that this referring to healing should be understood as all kind of illness. So, uh, Muslim, you know, cite examples of how the prophet Muhammad and his companion. Quran as direct healing in many ways for reciting verses of the Quran or certain simplification, uh, for healing. So a little Muslim, uh, uh, you know, scholars, uh, develop specific gender on this is called meaning the medicines of the prophet. And with the side examples of, you know, the way in which, uh, the moham, uh, used certain, uh, verse of the Quran for healing.

1 24:33

And there are, I mean, there are cases, I don't know if you wanna speak about the evil eye, if that's appropriate here, but there are cases where the Quran is, and again, I don't know how popular these sort of methods of healing are, but you know, aren't there cases where in certain societies the Quran might be actually consumed, like dissolved in water, um, or maybe worn in battle to for protection. And I mean, it, it has this sort of defensive property generally.

Speaker 4 25:03

Yeah, that method of healing is called, which is an Islamic form of exor. So the practice or the treatment of illness by using words of the Quran or specific simplification, uh, are taught by the prophet Moham is quite common in the Muslim sub even today. So some Muslim believe that the healing effect of the recitation of the Quran can be achieved in two ways. One is through the meaning of the Quran for those who understand it.

1 25:35

Yes.

Speaker 4 25:35

And second, through the son of the Arabic word of the Quran. For those who don't understand, of course, you know, different region might, uh, you know, apply this, uh, method of nuclear in different, as you mentioned earlier, that some Muslim, Muslim might bring water in which, you know, the Quran, you know, is absorbing it. So different, uh, region would, would follow different method. Letter. You know, Muslim sies tend to reject this practice as being Islamic. However, the practice can be found, you know, almost everywhere in, in, in the Muslim world, even among Muslim in the west. So I just, um, read a few lines from Philipp Louis, uh, work entitled Islamic Britain, in which he says that, you know, the IAM Muslim community. To prepare a written IC emulate for his neighbors. So in the United States, for instance, I, you know, I saw, uh, one article written by Aldi, uh, in which he described the practice of, uh, at the Akbar, uh, center and in Florida. So it's, it's, it's, it's, it's quite common.

Speaker 3 26:47

Yes. Within the, within the Jewish context, in the Hebrew Bible, a notion of biblical texts is having a kind of aic or kind of protective power, uh, is something that's kind of deeply rooted in, also in Jewish interpretation of, uh, of scriptural texts about putting God's word on one's doorpost or on one's arm. Or on one's head.

1 27:05

Yeah.

Speaker 3 27:05

Um, but I wonder also, just in the way you were describing that, uh, the, the, with, particularly with the korans. Notion of, um, or, or, or the Koran has being given for healing and for mercy about the way in which these traditions, these religious traditions, kind of tend to assimilate, uh, the whole dynamic of sickness and healing to a kind of more general. Dynamic of lack and completeness or brokenness and completeness where that brokenness could lie in a lack of belief or, or spiritual failing or a sense of despair or death or sin. Uh, there, there's a, again, an assimilation, uh, of the solutions of, uh, health and, uh, repentance and life. But that, that is, I think, a kind of across these traditions. It can, uh, be cashed out in a kind of a more fundamentalist way, I suppose, where there's a direct correlation between sin and sickness, uh, but then also in a more, I wouldn't say metaphorical way, but in a way that kind of, uh, recognizes certain, uh, kind of commonality in these dynamics so that sickness can kind of call to mind sin an occasion for reflection.

Jesus the Divine Physician

Speaker 4 28:11

Yeah, the ninth, ninth century, um, uh, scholar named I ab wrote a book entitled Al, meaning Illness and Atonement, in which he discussed how Muslim, you know, should, um, should behave in time of distress. So he provide a detailed instruction for specific form of party during the time of sickness. So he make a, you know, a, a connection between, uh, a sickness on one hand. On the other. So you, you see here how, you know, uh, sickness is transformed into something positive, right? To produce, um, the relat of space between people and God. So people can attain, uh, mercy because of their patient and, and, and during, during the time of, of, of sickness.

1 29:04

So I think we might connect all of this to another episode from the gospels. About Jesus and healing. You know, it seems like a lot of the, how we given to the word of God and Judaism and Islam for healing is, um, invested in Jesus himself in the New Testament. And I just wanna read here, um, from Luke chapter eight. A story known to some of our listeners about the, the woman who had a flow of blood. So this is, uh, Luke eight, starting in verse 43.

Speaker 3 29:33

Mm-hmm.

1 29:34

And, and a woman who had a flow of blood for 12 years and could not be healed by anyone, came up behind him and touched the fringe of his garment. In immediately, her flow of blood ceased and Jesus said, who was it that touched me when all denied it? Peter said, master the multitudes surround you and, and press upon you. Jesus said, someone touched me for, I perceive that power has gone forth from me. When the woman saw that she was not hidden, she came trembling and falling down before him, declared in the presence of all the people, why she had touched him, and how she had been immediately healed. And he said to her daughter, your faith has made you well go in peace. How did Francesca the um, early or later Christian leaders understand what these passages say about Jesus?

Speaker 2 30:19

I think it's very important. Jesus in early centuries in Patristic, uh, early Christianity, in Greek Christianity, in Orthodox Christianity to this day is understood. One of his titles is, uh, the Healer, the Doctor, Jesus the Doctor,

1 30:38

right?

Speaker 2 30:39

And is one of his, sort of his central mission in the Malki liturgy. That's the Middle Eastern, uh, Orthodox liturgy. He referred to as Jesus farmer cast several times. Jesus a healer, and this is really central. The idea is that he's intrinsically immune to sickness because he's healing. You know that he is healing by nature. That's he. He is life and healing. This is the most important thing. So all of the miracle stories in the gospels about Jesus healing, sicknesses, blindness, leprosy, they all coalesce into this image of Jesus as a healer.

1 31:27

Almost

Speaker 2 31:28

yess means doctor,

1 31:30

okay,

Speaker 2 31:31

is simply Greek for doctor.

1 31:33

Okay?

Speaker 2 31:33

You might say healer, because it sounds poetic. But essentially it means doctor. And in our mal kit liturgy a couple of weeks ago, car Analia said he spoke about Jesus as, as the vaccine, uh, as the vaccine for death. And this is like so fundamental to the early church reading of these stories that Jesus is immunity and confers immunity. I dunno if everybody's been watching contagion. Has everybody seen contagion? Now it's a 2011 film about this epidemic, which the whole world gets. It comes from China. It comes from a wet market in China. And the hero, or one of the heroes, Matt Damon, is immune. And so he just has immunity and he is able to carry on during the epidemic. And so it's this notion of immunity because just, uh, recently, uh, Matt Damon did a video. And said, okay, well I was in that movie and I had immunity, but in real life, in this epidemic. And no one is inherently immune, right? And so these stories are showing Jesus, you just touch him and you're heal because he's so inherently immune that he vaccinates you just by touching him. He vaccinates you and, and he is the treatment, the vaccination, everything. That is the biblical understanding, which is really richly present in the Orthodox lit to this day.

Speaker 3 33:06

What, but what, Francesca, if I may ask, does one, does one make of that? I mean, uh, surely, uh, one doesn't in most kind of Christian context, that wouldn't be understood in a, uh, in a literal sense, of course.

Speaker 2 33:16

Oh,

Speaker 3 33:17

course

Speaker 2 33:17

not. No,

Speaker 3 33:18

no. Then, right. So then how does that cash out theologically sort of for. Is it a, is it, does it simply catch out into kind of a, a message of hope? Or how do you kind of construe how that, how that emotion

Speaker 2 33:29

theologically, I mean, theologically, particularly in the West Jesus as vaccination has simply become Jesus as eternal life. But if you look at the actual stories, they're about healing and they're much more concrete than simply the soul having eternal life.

Speaker 4 33:51

Yeah,

Speaker 2 33:51

they're very concrete physical stories, and that was why it's interesting attending the Orthodox. Yeah, hearing he, he isn't just called eternal likes. He's called healing, and there's something really concrete there, which gets lost when, when we start translating it into theology and try to make sense of it, then it's gonna become, well, he's a vaccination for eternal life. And of course that's true, and obviously simply being a Christian is not a vaccination and we should all be locking ourselves down and sheltering right now so we don't get the virus and spread it to other people. That's what the idea isn't, that everyone's just automatically vaccinated by being Christian, but still these stories in their concrete sort of imagery are not just about the soul having immortal life. They're about physically healing the sick, and I think that that's why there's such a strong tradition in Eastern Christianity and in Catholicism of healing from relics and so on. I just don't think that the whole thing is removed to Christianity confers eternal life. If you believe the doctrine.

Speaker 4 35:08

So I found this interesting that in the New Testament, uh, people were healed by merely touching, uh, Jesus clock. Yes. Even though he was not pay attention to them.

Speaker 2 35:19

Yes.

Speaker 4 35:20

Soan seemed to to be somehow different. Uh, so every time the koan mentioned about, uh, Jesus miracles, including his healing miracles, it followed with the statement, it's permission to. That his miracles are intended to emphasize God science and power. You know, I know this is not quite relevant, but I think it's interesting to see how the same received traditions such as Jesus, you know, healing Miracle came to have such different sign in Islam. Christianity.

Speaker 2 35:56

Yes. So

Speaker 4 35:57

same stories are certainly in scriptures. But the manner of their telling differ quite, quite significantly.

1 36:06

Definitely,

Speaker 2 36:07

yes. I mean, even across the gospels there are different kinds of miracles. Sometimes Jesus does something like he makes a paste and puts it on the blind guy's eye. It says some words of prayer. Sometimes that happens. Sometimes he seems to struggle in prayer. Sometimes the power just goes out of him without just by touching him as in this story. So there's a range of different stories even in the New Testament, but there is something fundamental and tactile about this healing, which is more earthly and physical than just he confers eternal life. Right. Theologically, we turn it into, he confers eternal life because that's easier because we know that people are gonna get sick and die, but there's still something more concrete there.

Speaker 3 36:55

Yeah.

Trials Compassion and Trust

Speaker 2 36:55

And the reality of this concreteness. In the Orthodox and Catholic belief that there are things you can touch and get close to, which may confer healing.

1 37:08

So we're sort of nearing the end here, but I don't want to rush past this point'cause that I think it's very important that in, in the midst of this, um, people of faith still pray for healing even as we quarantine ourselves and seek to be good, um, citizens. And as, as v mentioned, keep in mind the elderly and the immunocompromised. So this is being people of reason and people of hope. I did wanna touch on one last topic before we wrap up entirely, which is just our, our responses to, well, I mean to coronavirus, I guess, and how, and Iran can help us think through this. You know, not everyone will, will be healed. Not everyone will recover. So how do we respond or how does the Bible and the Quran inform us, shape our shape, our reactions to this sort of incident of, of healing or, um, actually of, of pandemic. Do we see this as, as a trial sent by God as an opportunity for compassion? Um, what, what would be biblical or text that could help us think through this?

Speaker 4 38:10

I, I think sickness can be seen as, as, as a trial so that people. Get closer or be more mindful of God. In chapter two, Quran mentioned there that we test you. This is the speaker saying, we test you with something of, of fear, hunger and loss of wealth, life and so forth. And hardship, of course. Uh, and when, when hardship, uh, afflict people, they would say, we belong to God. So I think good example of this kind of, you know, approach to, uh, sickness is perhaps the story of job or ay in the Quran. Ayup is mentioned a few times in the Quran, but his story is one of the most frequently cited by Muslim A in Sufi as someone who, in spite of suffering, never lost his and remain devoted, you know, interesting. That, you know, the story of, uh, a or in the Quran is often taken as an example, how to behave during the time of sickness. So as you can, if you know that, you know, when he was Ted, uh, with disease, he prayed to God, he does not to God. Infl me with hardship and torment, which is quite interesting that he does not refer to God a source of illness, but rather he referred to God as the most merciful of the merciful. Right? Rah. And the source of, uh, illness in a narrative was certain. So just quite interesting, you know, to, to see how sickness can be seen as trial from God.

Speaker 3 40:03

And maybe I'd say, I mean, and, uh, from a, uh, from the perspective of a Jewish tradition, uh, again, kind of founded in, in the Hebrew Bible, I, I suppose, uh, and again, kind of perhaps taking a cue from job, but maybe from a somewhat different perspective, it's difficult to come to general, uh, conclusions on this question, but perhaps the instinctive gesture, I suppose of, or one of the instinctive gestures in Judaism would be. Or try to ascertain the ways of God and to kind of inquire into the, or press on the why question and instead to oneself with a what question. I mean, there is the assumption that the guidance provided by, uh, by God through the Bible and through, uh, the tradition of flexion on it provides a framework for life. And it's a framework for life that assumes the existence of trials, by which I mean trials in the sense of trials and tribulations. Uh, sickness so that our circumstances unprecedented as they are in a certain sense in our own lifetimes, perhaps, is precisely the, uh, the vision of, uh, of the world. That the biblical tradition as a whole assumes, uh, and so that it's not a, but rather a, uh, call, as it were to live according to the, to the, uh, again, to the, to the guidance of the, um, of the tradition sheltering. Uh, were for the sake of, uh, of one's own health and for the sake of others on the. Human and giving comfort to others to the extent that one can again, within this framework. So that is one ofties of this current situation. Individuals can die alone. And the, the typical practices of which are, uh, very much communitarian can't be put in place. But on the other hand, there is this general framework and a kind of a certain hope to be found, not in, in denial of, of the severity of, of current conditions, but on the contrary in the recognition that death and sickness are part of the, uh, of the biblical vision of the world.

1 41:58

I, you know, I've always admired something I've encountered among Muslim friends, which is in times of trouble. There seems to be. For many, the first responses to trust more greatly in God. You know, the Arabic term, complete dependence or reliance in God. I, I find that in the Christian tradition, I don't know if you agree, Francesca, but in times of trial, many people, their response is to be angry with God and to maybe. That's

Closing Thanks

Speaker 2 42:35

which then becomes anger. Trust in God. Although I must say in the same video talk, which I heard from our bishop of Aberdeen, he said exactly the same as we, that we should focus on the what of the epidemic and not the why. Because we, he said, in this life, uh, we can't get a big enough picture to know the why. We can simply focus on the what. And so almost the same words from our bishop, but yeah, to wrestle with God, to argue with God. It, it's also a kind of a Christian inheritance from Judaism. Uh, I agree that it's very admirable in this situation, simply to trust God. Uh, that's what we are actually called to do in this situation, is to give up our plans and trust God. And if that's a Muslim insight, it's a very good insight.

1 43:35

Beautiful. Well, maybe that's a good place to, to bring our conversation to a close. Thank you Francesca and Unim and, and everyone. Thank you for, for joining us. Be sure to be with us for the next episode of Minding Scripture. Where Divine word and human reason meet.