Virtues & Vocations, Part 29: The Cost of Ambition

Episode Topic: The Cost of Ambition 

Tired of the relentless professional treadmill? Join Miroslav Volf and Suzanne Shanahan to explore The Cost of Ambition. Their conversation reveals how to reclaim joy by trading soul-crushing comparison for the freedom of excellence. Rediscover your work’s purpose and embrace a path toward genuine flourishing and find your freedom.

Featured Speakers:

• Miroslav Volf, Yale Divinity School

Read this episode's recap over on the University of Notre Dame's open online learning community platform, ThinkND: https://go.nd.edu/2ebca0. 

This podcast is a part of the ThinkND Series titled Virtues & Vocations.

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Transcript

Welcome and Series Intro

1 0:06

Hi, everybody. Happy 2026. Welcome to our webinar Virtues and Vocations, conversations on Character in the Common Good. In this series, we share conversations about how education and work can promote human flourishing. This is our first webinar of the New Year. This series is part of Virtues in Vocations, a National forum housed at the Institute for Social Concerns. At the University of Notre Dame and supported by the Kern Family Foundations Virtue's, invocations seeks to foster a community of practice amongst scholars and practitioners across disciplines who are keen to understand how best to cultivate character and moral purpose in higher education and the professions. This webinar is just one way that we facilitate these conversations. I am Suzanne Shanahan and I direct the Institute for Social Concerns. And I'm host of this series. Today we are thrilled to bits to welcome renowned scholar and award-winning author, professor MLA Vol. Apologies, a new year cold. I could not think of a more auspicious way to kick off the new year. Vol is the Henry B. Wright professor of theology. At the Yale Divinity School, and as founder and director of the Yale Center for Faith and Culture, he was educated in his native Croatia, United States and Germany, earning doctoral and postdoctoral degrees with highest honors from the University of Tubing in Germany. He has written or edited more than 20 books, written over a hundred scholarly articles. His work has been featured in the Washington Post, Christianity Today, Christian Century, Sojourner, and several other outlets, including NPRs. Speaking of Faith, now on being with Krista Tippett and Public Television's, religion and Ethics, Newsweek Weekly. I'll attempt to stop coughing. Uh, today, uh, we will have a conversation with Professor Volf about his most recent book and winner, winner of the Christianity Today Best Book Award. The cost of ambition, how striving to be better than others makes us worse. His life's work has been committed to addressing the most fundamental questions of our being, and this is one just example. I had the pleasure to teach this fabulous new book in a seminar this fall on justice and the common Good and it generated by far one of our most provocative conversations. So I'm delighted to have the opportunity to discuss it with you today. Thank you. Welcome.

Speaker 2 3:02

Oh, thank you. I'm glad to be here with you.

1 3:06

So, we usually like to start with a little bit of background and so. You have a lovely setup in the preface of this book where you talk about where your thinking about ambition emerged, and how you came to this particular work. So we would love a bit of context as we start this conversation.

Speaker 2 3:28

Yeah. It's always hard to, to, to trace back the origins of, uh, of an idea, but certainly in my own family growing up a, as a kid. The idea of, uh, being superior to some someone. there's a kind of ambivalent relationship, uh, to that obviously a little bit of pride that somebody's, is of our own is, is, is good. On the other hand, a little bit of that shouldn't be kind of a measure, that we, that we should, uh, use. And so that kind of ambivalence was part of also my own, uh, life. And sometimes I also say, well, I tend to write books, uh, sometimes that deal with the problems that I, myself, uh, am experiencing. And I am a, a more competitive person that I'd like to admit having written this book. So you can read it in some ways. This way. I have, uh, given my own, uh, vices, I have recognized in the broader culture. a quite a significant, uh, way in in which we, maybe it's not too strong to say, betray our own, uh, humanity, in the ways in which we go about living our lives and how we go about determining what's really significant important and what counts as a success.

1 4:50

So, I, I think it's really interesting that you describe yourself as very competitive. So. One of the people I shared the book when I first came out with is my 25-year-old daughter. Uh, she works in DC and she's discerning next steps in her life. She works for a large global law firm as an analyst. and she read the book and she came back to me and she said, I think this is a critique of our entire family. we're a family, that thrives on competition. So, everything we do, whether it's baking cookies or playing scrabble or a pickleball, is a competition. Um, and I think that one of the really interesting things about the book is the way you disentangle notions of competition from the pursuit of excellence to this notion of superiority in particular. This idea that you are better than. Could you talk a little bit about this relationship? Yeah, yeah. And then would you say that this is, I didn't read it as a critique of competition in general, so maybe you can disentangle those bits.

Speaker 2 6:01

Yeah. Thank you for asking me that question. I, I, uh, spoke in insufficiently nuanced way when I mentioned, uh, competition because you're exactly right. I do not think that competition, as such, the phenomenon of competition is problematic. I think competition needs to be redeemed com competition needs to be, uh, um, uh, sanctified to use a more theological, uh, and spiritual, uh, language of spiritual theology. Um. Because, uh, it's possible to, to compete simply as a, a kind of friendship exercise in, in which a competing with somebody else, uh, stimulates, uh, one's own sense of, um. Uh, mastery of a particular, uh, particular art. And I, in fact, I mentioned the two classical, forms of competition that one sees in, uh, in the world of sport, at least in, in those sports that I know, a little bit. and, and that is if you see a competition, uh, between somebody like in soccer, between Messi and Ronaldo, it's a pretty vicious, uh, kind of competition. Uh, and with, with no hesitation put of putting other per, person down. But if you look at the competition between Magic Johnson and Larry Bird, for those of you. Who aren't my age, but a little bit younger. This is a, the prior generation of grades in, in basketball. You see, you see friends competing and almost have a sense that they equally rejoice, whether either one of them wins, and they've had a, you know, and one can have a very good game at, at, at, at it and maybe even better game, um, on the counter that. So, so I do think that it's very important to. Redeem, competition. And, um, you're exactly right, what, uh, the book is about. And what I find problematic is striving for superiority. And by this, I mean to be better than somebody else, whoever that somebody else, uh, is. And in that way, I distinguish it also from striving for excellence because striving of, uh, for excellence. is excellence or the goal is then defined by something that's independent from the, ex, uh, from the competitive, activity itself. whereas if you strive for superiority, that becomes the fundamental value, uh, that may not. Or other values, but becomes a dominant value. And I would put it this way, the more dominant value it becomes, the more problematic, uh, it's,

1 8:52

so when you think about this, right, sort of the Larry Bird Magic Johnson relationship, and that moment, so what would that have been? The eighties? sort of what has fundamentally changed in your thinking between that version of competition where you were happy for the success of others, right? You aspired to your own excellence, but success of others. Do you see this as a more recent shift or a more long historical pivot?

Speaker 2 9:26

I think you can, uh, you can give examples even in the world of, uh, sports and in particular in the world of. Of, of, of somebody who was really, one of the greatest, which is uh, which is uh, Jordan, uh, he was highly competitive, invested in, in superiority, right? Uh, to the point that it was uncomfortable for people to, to witness that there was something demeaning toward himself that he so insisted on being, uh, kind of the greatest. so I, I think it is a feature of, um, I would even say it's a feature of human, human nature. We can talk about how it was, uh, built into us, uh, and, and why it, it, it is there. But I think it has become, increasingly dominant, uh, in the cultures of modernity that are. Uh, largely culturally determined by the way in which we organize basic activities of our lives, which is to say by our economy, it wasn't, uh, there was always, uh, kind of this economic, uh, competition. Competition in wealth. But even somebody like, like Adam Smith. In Theory of Moral Sentiments, he complains about the idea of striving for superiority. As, as such, he is quite aware that that can be kind of acid for our kind of moral, moral selves. And so that you have those critics, uh, early on in 1718 18th century, uh, critics in 19th century, you'll have, uh, critics. But you have less and less in the late 20 at beginning of 21st century critics of striving for superiority. And I, I think part of it is that, economic rationality has kind of seeped into all the different dimensions, uh, of our, of our lives. And I think that we even also, pretty much, uh. Decided that, a kind of evolutionary biology, holds the, to. Most of what we as humans are and what we as humans do. I don't want to at all simply dismiss by biologic, uh, evolutionary biology by, by, by no means. But I'm pushing against the idea that that's the definitive of who we are as human beings and that all our moral sentiments. Can be derived, uh, from it. And if you try it, if you do that, then suddenly striving for superiorities just what normal human beings do.

1 12:16

So, um, in some sense, you've described this, this book as an intervention, right? And you've also just said that we don't have as many critics of this, current way of engaging and being, What is the nature of the intervention? Clearly you're a critic of it. And what else do you think needs to happen to interrupt this?

Speaker 2 12:41

Well, it's in intervention in a sense, uh, that, I'm relatively a lone voice, and there are a lot of resonance is that the book is receiving or when I was lecturing about it, people, people recognized as a problem. But I was, uh, describing. and maybe even, um, became particularly sensitive to it, uh, uh, when it comes to use of social media, though, and it's, it's seen as a problem though even in discussion about use of social media. I don't see on the basis of it, kind of sustained critique of the, of striving for superiority. That is exacerbated, uh, by, social, social media in many ways. but in some ways it's a, uh, it's a limited intervention that I give. Um, I have set of interlocutors. Uh, one of them is John Milton. The other one is so Kier guard and, and Apostle Paul. Partly because I find them, very compelling in their vision of humanity and, uh, in critique of striving for superiority. All three of them in many ways. But, for instance, what would it mean in various domains of life, whether that's sport or that's economics, uh, whether that's in politics. Or even in arts or education, um, what would it mean to have a friendly competition? How does it look like? Uh, how do we foster it? What kinds of, uh, what kinds of, um, motivations, uh, can be provided? So, so none of this. Uh, has been, uh, explored and what I would hope is that somebody would take, uh, the question of friendly competition that is not based on striving for superior to make it a major research project across domains of, of our, uh, broadly social and, uh, individual lives. And then it would, uh, because it's a problematic phenomenon of that scope. Rather than being limited to a particular domain, it almost, there are no domains of life where you don't sense it. There are some domains where it's more present, some may be less. But if you, uh, if you start with education, if you go to, uh, economy and, uh, politics, uh, certainly in in sports it is, but even in arts, for instance, very often, uh, about counts. Success in arts is mediated through, uh, mo modes of competition, uh, often then judged on in monetary terms. Uh, so, uh, so, I'd love discussion about all these domains.

1 15:29

So, um, one of the things I wonder, there's a philosopher at Duke, Wayne Norman, who studies competition, and he looks at particular spaces. Where competition is built into the activities. So one of them is sports. So, you know, ultimately in a basketball game there's a winner and a loser. and there are particular rules of how you play the game. He looks at, the law, and litigation. It's an adversarial process, but it's structured. Do you think that we've lost some of the structures to, sort of engage this or to create a normative framework for competition? How would you, you know, I love the Larry Bird, uh, magic Johnson example because there are these epic sports rivalries where. people do have a genuine sense of appreciation of what the other is able to achieve. Can we imagine structures for this, that, that do something different, that, that enable the pursuit of excellence without, I am better than you, therefore you are less than me, which seems to be the problematic aspect of this.

Higher Ed Pressure Cooker

Speaker 2 16:51

Yeah. I'm not sure that, that, that's what I would like to, uh, like to see, explore, and obviously one would need, folks who are experts in various domains. and even you might say, well, I'm in the context of education, but I feel like I'm, I'm a participant. I'm not so much a observer from the outside of the educational process, from its very beginnings. with two year olds or whatever that that is to, uh, later on in life. And so I think that would be my, my goal to somehow think, uh, how can we shape, whether with rules, and I might be skeptical, maybe that rules can be designed simply for it, but what might be the other ways in which one may, foster a, a more, more friendly? But in sometimes no less intense, engagement. Right. and, um, and, and what can we do so that, the, the, the rules that exist would not be Ted, see, sees very clearly these days. Uh, examples of, of such. Striving for superiority, irrespective of what's happening, uh, or, or the consequences it, it has in the domain of politics, and, um, rules, uh, would be helpful. Uh, how does one, uh, have also culture that suppose those rules and holding them to be, uh, something that's valuable? Um. A host of, questions that needed to be explored. And that's why I think it's, it's a, it's an intervention. Mm-hmm. It's by no means, I, I by no means have a solution to problems that, uh, that are there structural.

1 18:39

So, um, maybe we could talk a little bit, if we just take, right. You work at Yale, uh, you work with students, how. A different set of cultural norms in higher education, uh, that might, foster intense pursuit of excellence, but an adherence to rules, uh, right. Without this notion of superiority. I'm thinking, of one of the funniest conversations like, well, funny in a sad sort of way, conversation with a group of students about cheating. and the overwhelming response was, I only cheat if I have to. and right, it's sort of the, the, the need to be successful trumps any sense of rules. So I agree rules are not sufficient, but are we every day doing things in the context of our classrooms, in the context of elite universities that are. Are essentially replicating this way of being that, that students see out in the world, whether it's professional sports or politics or, uh, the economy, this drive to be superior. Can we, in the context of higher education, interrupt that?

Meritocracy Myth

Speaker 2 20:01

Yeah. That, that is a wonderful, uh, question and I should say that, uh, one of the, experiences. That kind of nudged me to write the, the book was, um, teaching Yale undergrads, and seeing how within the context of Yale, that they're, they're fragile, and if they're unable to perform. Now, at the top of the group of relative Comran, uh, which are now the Yale students, they, they, they feel like, like their self is, uh, falling, falling apart, and hence rise in depression. Uh, maybe can be, uh, amongst students, uh, they, they aren't, they feel able to achieve, but that's because. They've come to Yale as achiever. They're, they were on the top of their high schools or close to the, uh, to the top. So that, the question begins even before elite universities and in elite universities is particularly, uh, uh, particularly strong. But it's also strong, not just on the student end, but on the faculty end as well. the way in which we are hired, way in which we are promoted, all happens through a competi competitive, processes. I, I, I don't have sufficient, uh, knowledge, of the dynamics of educational processes. Uh, how, what inter what, uh, what a good effective intervention would, would look like. I know that I have a hard time as a professor, uh, grading students and evaluating, and feel often that, uh, should be thinking merit of the argument and forgetting comparison comparative judgements with with others. But then am I cheating other students outta something? Uh, what if I, if I don't pay attention to that because they expect, so, so, I, I have questions. I don't have, answers.

1 22:13

That's great. one of the things, uh, when I first picked up the book, I was thinking of, of Michael Sendell's book on Meritocracy, which really has a, a different argument, but is aligned in certain ways. And he has this quote where he talks about the meritocratic ideal not being a remedy for inequality, but rather a justification of inequality. to what extent do you see this a striving for superiority as a rationalization of the way things currently exist? And a way to push against more significant social change.

Speaker 2 22:59

Yeah, no, I, I, I think, um, attempts to re retrieve, uh, meritocracy is really an attempt to, put on a little bit surer, footing. The, striving for superiority that's going, uh, that's going on, and I find myself that meritocracy. I, it, it's, it's a very, I see it as a very blunt instrument. And so sometimes I give an example. So, so, okay, let, let, let's say that, uh, becoming, uh, being called to be a professor at Yale is some kind of an achievement.

1 23:48

It's,

Speaker 2 23:48

we can, we can discuss what kind of achievement is, let's, let's grant this some kind of an achievement. So, so I'm one of those, and if you ask me what percentage of that achievement. Can I ascribe to myself so that I can say, well, I marry, I sla, married this, and I would say, what, 3%

1 24:18

Interesting.

Speaker 2 24:20

Five at the most, so much. I, I mean, I can go down, down the list. All the people and all the situations and circumstances. Um, some of them were planned, some of them, but not by me, some of them completely chance, uh, situations that have contributed, to this. and it seems to me that I can't even then tell which ones so that I can say, oh, this is, this is my contribution. even that I'm not quite sure, like, identify. And so it seems to me that, meritocracy doesn't, doesn't help me. It becomes an another mode of striving for, for superiority, without even being able to, properly ascribe the, the achievement to the, to the self. And hence, I find it very, unsatisfactory. What I partly do in the, in the book is I lean heavily on Apostle Paul, but in his case it's very, very clear that it's meritocracy in some ways. in this case, moral merit meritocracy, that he was a critic, of, and I think rightly, rightly.

1 25:36

That's great. So just as a, point of information, that's a question I ask students every year in this, justice in the common good class and over the past four years, if I averaged the percent that they thought with was entirely of their doing, it's 96%. So it's the inverse of, uh, your articulation. I think this sort of bespeaks, the moment that we're in, in thinking about students, so right, very little, less than 5%. They ascribe to circumstances, to others, to chance to anything They really see themselves as a product of their own effort. it's very much a manifest destiny logic.

Speaker 2 26:26

Yeah. Yeah. That, that's very, that's very interesting. What makes them. I mean, I could be completely wrong and they could be right, but that's not likely.

1 26:47

Not likely,

Speaker 2 26:48

not likely, not likely in those, in those numbers.

1 26:52

No. And I think it's, you know, I think it, your question is really apt because I think there is something. That they need to believe that it's within their control.

Speaker 2 27:04

Yeah.

1 27:05

And that they can navigate that and that their success is of their own. I just think it's interesting the way you framed it in contrast to the modal student, in this particular class, who is part of a selective group selected because of their commitments to the common good, which I think makes it even more extreme than I'm thinking. Super, super interesting. what,

Speaker 2 27:31

but it seems to me, oh, oh

1 27:33

no, go on, go on.

Friendship as Antidote

Speaker 2 27:34

I was just gonna say that, uh, I, I think isn't in um, IN'S book that he, uh, he quotes, former President Obama, who, as many others, but he also used the used sports. should be. And that, abstracts from, any, any, contribution or, or how that particular person has come to perform in the way in which they perform and simply looks at the performance rather than, uh, at a much broader picture, which I think one ought to, one ought to look, and that's, uh, uh, understandably, maybe. But that's a common picture. Of contemporary society in, in America. It's less so in Europe, but certainly so in United States.

1 28:31

So, um, one of the pieces that I read recently that I absolutely loved, it was an interview with you and Christopher Winer, right, and talking about friendship. and I'm wondering if you could imagine friendship and sort of an attention to friendships as these spaces of mutual pursuit of excellence could be a way to interrupt this notion of superiority and that, part of our challenge may be the absence of robust friendships of that nature anymore.

Speaker 2 29:11

Yeah, that's a, that's a very, a very good, uh, good example. And, uh, Larry Bird, ma Magic Johnson. Mm-hmm. The friends. and, uh, I, I, I think it can interrupt, uh, and if, if the friendship is deep, you can rejoice over successes of another person, even when, uh, you own successes pale in comparison. So, so Chris and I have a book. Of, of correspondence between poet and theologians. It's called glimmerings. And, uh, you know, it takes a, it, it takes a certain kind of humility. And I want, um, maybe I'm boasting now in my humility, but friendship comes, uh, it's a result of friendship to, to let yourself as, as, as a mere theologian for whom, English is a second language. To have correspondence with one of the really top, best stylists, uh, uh, in English language, uh, that, that we have today. His prose is absolutely spectacular. He's a poet of course. But his growth is absolutely spectacular. But I have to say, I rejoice for the Christmas Pro. Any, any, any gem that is there in correspondence when we is a great gem that has, uh, occurred. Uh, if I think, oh, I, I am, I'm now in shadow because because of that, I'm rude. I'm gonna rejoice with, uh, with him. and Augustine has this beautiful line. Where disagreement with friend is like disagreeing with oneself.

1 30:43

Yeah.

Beyond Superiority and Joy

Speaker 2 30:43

Without rank or without envy. and that's a really, a beautiful thing when one can be in that kind of a situation and it doesn't diminish, uh, the, the, the kind of sense of wanting, uh, driving for. But, uh, it's just generous, uh, and wants to be truthful about others and rejoice in the truth of who the other person is. That that would be, that would be my aspiration, Michael.

1 31:10

Yeah, that's a beautiful thought. can we talk a little bit about the thesis that you have in your conclusion? So you do this. Like fabulous thing that I almost wish every book would do, where you summarize the core thesis that you've presented across the book. and there are 24 of them, and I would love to address, the ones that are more aspirational and forward looking. You have this section, it's thesis 20 through 24, beyond superiority and inferiority, and I think these are just. A beautiful, aspirational way for us all to be thinking. And the first one is, you state to avoid dying, to live in true freedom with joy. Uh, we must give up striving for superiority. can you talk a little bit about what it is you're, you're trying to implicate here? I love the notion of freedom, the notion of joy. How, how is it that this is going to liberate us in a particular way?

Speaker 2 32:17

You know, behind it is a, is a story that I use in the, in the book, and the story comes from, uh, Kier, who is one of my interlocutors. and that's the story of this, uh, little Lily. and it comes, uh, um, from Kier guard's commenting, about the teach Jesus teaching about worry. and he, Jesus points them to the lilies that, that they don't, they don't worry, yet there are dressed clad, uh, uh, more beautiful than Solomon was in, in all his royal, uh, glory. and he tells a story of this, uh, one Lily Kegar does, uh, who, who had a friend, the bird. And that picks up because, uh, Jesus mentions birds also in the same uh, passage. Then bird would always come and then tell the little lily what the bird has seen flying. And every time the bird would come, the lily would see, feel a little bit diminished herself because partly she couldn't fly. And partly she was the bird was telling her about those wonderful other lilies that had been, uh, seen. And then finally, after a while since they were such good friends, they decided they would, that the bird would peck around, uh, the little li lilies, uh, uh, roots, uh, take, uh, her with some soil, to the place where those splendid, uh, lilies were growing. and that's what happened. And in the process is you one can imagine, uh, little Lily has died. Uh, she died in comparison. Uh, as, as she was comparing herself with others and wanting to be compared, with them. And so there's a kind of, um, kind of an injury that happens to us, in comparison, uh, where we stack, and we don't stack as well as we hoped that, that we, we would, and we shrivel. Uh, we cannot be ourselves, uh, in, in enjoy and celebrate that good. Which, which is, which is there. And so, uh, to me that's one of them, one of the key elements. How can I, I cannot be free if I'm always depressed by wanting to be somebody who I'm proving not able to be. because I'm trying to compete, uh, with somebody who, for whatever reason, has, uh, been become my comparant. And of course if I can be free, I can be also rejoicing. I can't rejoice over their successes and beauty. I can rejoice over my, uh, what, what I can do the good that I experienced, and I am actually, hindering myself. And the point is that if I were to win that contest and have a moment of freedom. Exuberance, uh, and joy. They would come a moment, not, too longer, uh, later where I would compare myself with somebody else, uh, and or somebody El else would come from behind my, uh, back and overtake me. And the process would start, uh, uh, start afresh. And there's a constant oscillation be between elation. Brief moments of elation of her one's successes, a a and then the long road of living with, with one's own, uh, failures in some ways and failures when one isn't a failure, when one is such a wonderful, marvelous human human being. And failure is completely off the social comparison make.

1 35:52

That's great. That's beautiful. The next one, on 21, we're, and this is, I think you've referenced Paul here, which I think is important. You talk about the standing of any person in community is exactly equal to the standing of any other, and I. I think when we imagine, uh, shared flourishing, when we imagine the common good, this is just so essential. Can you flesh this out a little bit more for us and why this is important to your argument?

Audience Q&A Highlights

Speaker 2 36:30

Yeah. Um, well, it, it seems that, uh, as soon as you, uh, assess value through standings, You are, you're getting into, into superiority standards are relative, socially, to, to the place, uh, uh, where you are. And therefore, nothing is given. as, as a kind of objective, everything is constantly, uh, subjective and especially if we live in highly dynamic societies. As we, as we do, the competitions is going to. Become, become, uh, very, very fierce and, and one wouldn't be able to enjoy, a true community. The other one is always, I look down or, or I, I look, uh, look up with, and we, I looked down with, with certain kind of, uh. sense of maybe not despising them, but elevating myself o over them. And, uh, relationships, social relationships are all fraught by this comparative advantages and, and disadvantages. And it would seem to me that, in order to have a community, a healthy community, one would have to, um. Give up on that, transcend that, and, and find joy in, uh, oneself and in the other person.

1 37:56

Wonderful. I wanna turn now to one of the questions. this is from Howard Gardner, who states there's a big difference between striving for ex excellence on the one hand and gloating about one's achievements on the other. Talking about modeling this distinction is one tack, are there others and are there cultures or subcultures that highlight this distinction?

Speaker 2 38:25

That, that, that is really great. Um, yeah, that just tells you my, my also limitations. You might, you might think that, uh, that there are, we, we know small subcultures that do that. I think in some ways, um. friendships, we, we talked about it is a kind of a little subculture, and it, it may be broader than just two friends. It may be a, a group of friends, and you can imagine how that will be the mode in which they, in which they, uh, exist. We know that in some families as well, this is, this is, uh, this is modeled whereas other families, uh, work, work a little bit differently. So, um. I would, I would love to see, uh, say cultural anthropological studies, that, uh, kind of dig out, the, the, the kind of, how societies or, or cultures of this sort, or even subcultures of this sort. How do they, uh, how do they adjust themselves to living in a, in a modern world? What, what happens? What are the dynamics and what keeps that from, uh, exploding because the pressures are, are immense, how to negotiate that. So, yes, uh, I would, I would say we can make an argument, but ideal case scenario would be to have communities to which we can point, look at that. This is how it looks like It's possible. A different world is possible. They, they live it, right?

1 39:58

Yeah. I think it's also both with the kind of increasing alienation, the decline of community, decline of friendships is, is what is perhaps enabling this to really take over in these huge ways. So, great question. Next one is from a big Boston sports fan. I can't help but comment about Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. In my opinion, what made Larry Bird so great is that he made the whole team better. It wasn't just about himself. For most other basketball players and athletes in general, that's not the case. Can you comment on how collaboration. Plays a role in one's own ambition, how this factors in or doesn't. So this seems hugely important as well.

Speaker 2 40:46

Yeah, it's, it's, it's a beautiful comment. And so, so whatever, uh, happened between him and magic, Johnson, this was a feature, character, character trait of Larry Bird. More, more generally, it looks like. He was, uh, he was oriented to his, uh, entire team, and it's, uh, it's really fantastic, uh, to have somebody, uh, somebody of this, uh, sort. and, um, one might, one might ask, well, uh, be nice to have exemplars like him, for instance, very prominent. What does it take, uh, to sustain this? What does it take, uh, what kind of sensibilities one has to have? Make this to be the pattern of one's own life. and it's a beautiful example.

1 41:35

Great. Um, next question. What would a humble institution look like in practice? That's a tough one.

Speaker 2 41:46

It is a, it's a tough one. that's a very, very good question. What, so what's a humble team? Yeah, we talked about in some ways, right? and, and if, um, if the behavior of Larry Burr is contagious, and, uh, it might have, uh, well been, I I'm not enough of a, enough knowledgeable enough about history of Celtics. if it was contagious, it was a collaborative, uh, team, I must say that somehow, and I'm not sure exactly what the reason why and the first time it occurred to me. Now as we are talking. I, I run a small organization, which I think is like that in, in some ways. I, I feel that I, I'm surrounded by very humble people and it's beautiful to see how they, we, we all kind of want other persons to, to succeed in the, in the team. And, and it's a, it's a very pleasant thing, to experience and pleasant environment to work in.

1 42:49

Do think,

Speaker 2 42:49

and it takes, it, it takes, I, I think it takes, uh, people with receptivity, uh, to that, uh, so that they kind of mirror back, to, to others who, who attend that. And so, sort of collaborative effort is to create an environment, cultural environment of this sort. Do

1 43:07

you think you do particular things to foster that environment? in that organization you lead and do you think you select to invite in particular kinds of people who are more receptive to that? Or do you think you're just, this was lucky?

Speaker 2 43:25

I, you know, I, I, I don't know. Um, I'm, I'm not a, I'm not a very good leader, so that's a, that's pretty, pretty clear. I, I think it's partly, partly lucky, partly, I've, uh, ended up collaborating with people. Um, one of one, uh, one person who is part of it is, uh, has been my doctoral student, uh, for, for quite some time. Just a splendid human being. So, uh, uh, and so, so are others. And I'm, I'm just look at them and I rejoice how wonderful. They're,

1 43:59

that's, that's wonderful to hear. next question. Aren't there institutional incentives to sur to strive for superiority at elite research universities like Yale and maybe Notre Dame? Can resistance to ambition become more than a personal practice, but taken to an institutional level? And if so, how?

Speaker 2 44:23

Yeah. again, I am, um. My pay question because, uh, it, it certainly, certainly is, uh, all the way from how one gets to be a member of the, of the faculty, how promotion, uh, works, uh, and often how life is even after promotion. I've heard, um, some of my colleagues, uh, say that their best work was done after they've received tenure. When they were not, in, in the kind of competitive environment, then suddenly they could be truly themselves rather than, than, uh, aligning themselves with certain kinds of expectations that would, uh, result in assessment, uh, of a certain sort. And, uh, that, that is, that, that is very interesting. Right. And I think, um, universities and faculties would do well. To reflect on this, I'm not sure exactly what that would mean. I'm ju right now sitting on a promotions co committee. We have, uh, letters of comparisons and all that kind of thing. And I think, what am I doing? If they, if they will ask me, well, how do we do, how, how do, how would, how do we do it? Otherwise, if a provost were come to me for advice, I would say I'm not, I'm not sure.

1 45:46

That's good. The specific goal of competition might be influence, might influence the degree to which superiority is motivation. If we frame, reframe the goal of competition EEG from amassing individual wealth, to improve societal wellbeing, might that help us pursue excellence rather than superiority? So is it really about our goals and the individuation of those goals? That's the problem here.

Speaker 2 46:15

I mean, certainly would, uh, uh, would help if we, if we didn't think, of, achievement primarily as we in the cultural moment are to, I think, in terms of achievement and achievement is then tied to, this non-value called success. and. If we can more we can have, uh, common goals that are substantive, the easier it would be, not to organize our lives around, uh, competition, but rather about contributions that people make toward that, uh, toward that goal. But even in that, right, if you, if you agree on the goal and then, but, but you assess how one makes, what contribution one makes toward it, uh, and it can, it can turn into, uh, competitive, endeavor. So some kind of, uh, it's, it'll seem to me that some kind of spirituality. would have to undergird, uh, whatever is done. And, but I I, with this, I'm not saying that therefore we don't need also kind of systemic structural changes. We, we, we do. I just don't know much about, how to do it in various domains.

Social Media and Power

1 47:35

I'm, I'm wondering if that, um, when you talk about spirituality, this, this seems critically important. Because at base it's about what it means to live a good life and what it means to be a good person in that life. And so, yeah, I really appreciate that dimension of your argument. this next question is about the zero sum nature of social media. Thinking about the ways in which young people build a sense of worth in digital silos and how these platforms reinforce superiority. As a motivation and really as a means to an end or at the end unto itself, how are you thinking about the interplay of technologies with an intervention or with this, this process of competition? So technology and your argument.

Speaker 2 48:24

Well, in some ways, technology, has been designed to exacerbate. Our propensity to strive for superiority. the likes, uh, or whatever equivalent is I have been on social media, I must, admit for quite some time. TikTok is completely, I've never, never, uh, I had maybe one experience with it. I used to be on Twitter and on Facebook, and probably the last 6, 7, 8 years, uh, I've completely stayed, stayed away. But it, it, it kind of thrives in this quantitative, uh, measures of, uh, of one's popularity and therefore, of one's, uh, success. And, and, and it makes one obsessed with, with this first thing, what does, well, how many likes do I have? and, uh, because that, that somehow measures, uh, my, um, my importance. So, yes, I, I agree with that. And we should resist. Especially, uh, exposure, uh, of fairly vulnerable people, uh, in the early teens, uh, to the, these kind of compar comparisons, and therefore to these kinds of technologies. And I think we should regulate these, uh, technologies as we regulate, uh, substances, uh, and how, how they're used or, and abused

1 49:44

Great. what role does power play in your vision of striving for ex excellence rather than superiority? Particularly thinking here about a person's desire for control or power, especially when they feel powerless.

What He's Working On Next

Speaker 2 50:06

Yeah, sometimes, um. It, it's, uh, I'm, I'm aware of a, of a sense in, in which, my talk about striving for superiority and my problematizing, it can be perceived and I've encountered that as well. Oh, there's the white male from, uh, elite University. After he has achieved, uh, whatever we generally want people to, to achieve. now he comes up and, uh, and talks to us who, who are, haven't the position that he has, about not striving for superiority. That there, there may be a sense that, that there's kind of hypocrisy. I'm involved, uh, here, uh, maybe even nefariously keeping, making sure that, that my domain is kept to save from incursions, from from below. my, my sense, uh, though, and, and, uh, you know, I, maybe there's some, uh, subconscious, uh, motivations of this, of this sort, but my sense is when I, when I, uh, observe the situation is the people who suffer most. Are actually the people who, are closer to what we normally considered, as, uh, as a kind of bottom. It's very hard to move oneself up. striving for, for superiority and the competition is equally fierce. And resources are relatively, relatively meager often. And so it seems to me that. This is a good news From where I sit, I, I'd be happy to be corrected, from where I sit. This is, uh, alternative to striving for superiority is good news. For those on the top, as it is, good news. From those closer to the, to the bo, what we call bottom, but I wanna call into question these categories. I've just. it, it isn't a, that that affirmation of, sheer humanity of every individual is clearly cramps to four in what I'm after, because that's really at, at the bottom of, of my own, interest in this book and in this project.

1 52:38

Wonderful. as we wrap up, I wanna ask sort of two, hopefully quick questions. One, what is it you're working on now? And if you were to recommend something you're reading, what would it be?

Closing and Next Webinar

Speaker 2 52:51

Oh, that's, that's really Okay. So what am I? so, right now I have, uh, I have, uh, delivered lectures, uh, in, uh, Aberdeen and I'm on am Mundi on Love for the World. And, uh, right now I, I'm teaching, so I, I'm not, not working on much, uh, in terms of writing, but come summer, I, I hope that I'll be revising this, uh, this, this book. And, uh, it really matters to me for us to find ways in which to love the broken world. Not its brokenness, but the world in its broken state. And I think the Christian faith has a great deal of resources to open this possibility up, for us and we really desperately need it.

1 53:46

Wonderful. and with that, I just wanna thank you so much for this lovely conversation. It's been a delight to spend this hour with you, so I appreciate

Speaker 2 53:53

it. Thank you. The, the pleasure is mutual. Thank you so much for making this conversation possible.

1 53:59

I invite everybody to join us on February 23rd with Michael Norton from the Harvard Business School, who will be talking about habits, ritual, and wellbeing. Thank.