Cultivating Hope, Part 6: Art and the Museum as Instruments of Hope

Episode Topic: Art and the Museum as Instruments of Hope

As part of the Sesquicentennial Celebration of the University of Notre Dame Art Museum, join us for an inspiring conversation exploring the intersections of the arts, faith, history, and education, and the role of the museum in contemporary life.

Featured Speakers:

• Heather Hyde Minor, University of Notre Dame
• President Rev. Robert A. Dowd, C.S.C., University of Notre Dame
• Barbara Jatta, Vatican Museums

Read this episode's recap over on the University of Notre Dame's open online learning community platform, ThinkND: https://go.nd.edu/ccc4f1.

This podcast is a part of the ThinkND Series titled Cultivating Hope.

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Transcript

Welcome

Speaker 0:06

Well, thank you everybody. Uh, it's great to see you all. I hope you're having a great afternoon. Uh, it's a great pleasure to be with you and to, uh, to be a part of this conversation with Barbara Jatta, who we welcome back. Barbara Jatta, who's g- we welcome back to the University of Notre Dame. We're so grateful. You know, um, the theme of this year's Notre Dame Forum is cultivating hope. Each year we have a theme, and we, what we try to do is spark a campus-wide conversation around that theme, and this year's theme is cultivating hope. And today, we explore how the arts, and in particular museums, serve as those sources, as powerful instruments of hope and of connection and of faith. In fact, during her 2021 Keeley lecture on behalf of the Nanovic Institute here on campus at Notre Dame, Dr. Jatta spoke about the beauty that leads to faith, and I might add hope to that as well. Today's conversation is especially important because it's part of our sesquicentennial celebration of the art museum here at Notre Dame. You might know that the connection between the Vatican and our art museum goes back quite a ways, 150 years. That connection began when Notre Dame founder, Father Edward Sorin, invited Vatican artist Luigi Gregori to campus to serve as artist in residence and also director of our art department. And that single invitation really has shaped, Notre Dame's visual identity. If you've been through our main building, you've seen some of Gregori's work. If you've been in the Basilica, you've seen some of Gregori's work. So given this long history of connection, it's a really a distinct honor to welcome Barbara Jatta back to Notre Dame. As you know, Barbara is director of the Vatican Museums, and she's no stranger to our community. She has visited our campus several times in the past, and we count her as one wonderful member of our Notre Dame family because we were able to bestow on her, honored to bestow on her an honorary degree back in 2024. So thank you, Barbara, for joining us here, for coming back to Notre Dame. We're so grateful to count you as a member of our family, our Notre Dame family. And the moderator of today's discussion is Heather Hyde Miner, and Heather is R. L. Kanalu Professor of Art History here at Notre Dame. Heather specializes in the artistic and intellectual culture of early modern Italy From 2017 to 2020, she served as academic director of Notre Dame Rome. Her deep scholarship and passion for the intersection of art and history really make her the perfect person, to lead us in today's exploration together with Barbara. So with no further ado, please join me in welcoming Heather Hyde Mina and Barbara Jatta to the stage.

Speaker 2 3:29

Thank

Speaker 3 3:43

you so much, Father Dowd, and thanks to all of you for being here today on this very beautiful day when it might be much more tempting, to be outdoors or elsewhere, uh, than here. And I also want to s- give a special welcome to the students who are here today at this very, very busy time, time of the year to join us in this wonderful, wonderful, conversation. So I'm going to introduce, Barbara very briefly, and then we're going to start a conversation, the two of us together. But because we want it to be a dynamic conversation, and we want to hear from you and your questions as well, you'll see that on the screens... Yes? No. Yes, the screens around the room, there will be QR codes, and so you can scan those and type in a question, and we'll, we'll try to ask as many of those as possible at the end, uh, at the end of our time, at the end of our time together. so thanks again to all of you for being here, and thanks to, to Father, Father Dowd. I can think of no better topic today, for a conversation at this, uh, at this particular time and on this particular day here together with Barbara than to think about hope, the topic of this year's Notre Dame Forum. the Epistle of the Hebrews, tells us that hope is the anchor of the soul. It's the thing that keeps us tethered. It's the thing that allows us to make it through the waves and the storms, that for us to not go off, off course. and so I can, again, I can think of no better theme or topic for us to think about together, with, with, Barbara. it's my enormous delight, very, very special pleasure to introduce Barbara Jatta to you here today She is the director of the Vatican Museums, a position to which she was appointed in 2017 by, Pope Francis. That is a job, and, you know, I'm a humble, uh, historian, so facts and figures, you know, numbers are not always in my wheelhouse, but I, I, I jotted down a couple of them this morning thinking about this. That job entails, overseeing approximately 70,000 works of art, among them the Sistine Chapel, a painting by Leonardo da Vinci, a number of Raphaels, and the list goes on and on. This is, not that we're keeping count, but this is twice the size of the collection at the Louvre Museum, so truly an enormous, enormous, and very rich collection. Together with 800 colleagues who Barbara supervises, everything from restorers to museum guards to curators, they welcome about seven million visitors per year to, to the, the museum. So I think this gives you a sense of the enormous scope of, of the responsibilities that Barbara, Barbara has. You can read much more about her, and I'm sure you have, everywhere from The Wall Street Journal to Vogue Magazine. Uh, so I, I will not spend time recounting, uh, her, her many spectacular, uh, accomplishments, although I, I could do that. Instead, today is just a, a brief introduction. I thought instead that I would talk about one of the first times I remember meeting Barbara. I'm not gonna say how many years ago the, this, this was. We were talking about this with Father Dowd before we came in here. She, she said a number, and I said,"No, we're not, we're not gonna talk about that number." I remember as a student, as a graduate student, in the Vatican Library, this kind of holiest of holies for, for scholars, this collection created by the popes, not for their personal collection, but to encourage scholarship already, uh, already in the Renaissance, working in the Vatican Library and, uh, having the sense that there was something important for my dissertation research that was in this mysterious place called the Gabinetto delle Grafiche in the Vatican Library. And Barbara was the chief of this collection of graphic arts, so works on, photographs, prints, drawings, things that aren't part of books that are in the library, and that, that was the collection she ran before going to the Vatican Museums. and so Barbara generously invited me to come, come, come look at this thing I needed to, to, to see for my, my research. Not only did she do that, but after I had seen it, she invited me to come to her office and talk to her about what I saw and what I thought and what she saw and what she, she thought. I don't

Speaker 4 8:26

remember.

Speaker 3 8:26

It, it w- a, a huge cop- copper plate for something to put into the center of- Okay. Ah, I see the majority box. And not only that- Yeah, yeah she opened up behind her, this enormous, uh, 17th century book cabinet that has been in that space for a very long time, opened it up, and in it was a coffee m- maker, coffee machine. Right, right. With these little tiny porcelain cups. So this is all to say that Barbara is not only a great friend and a great encourager of scholars, no matter what their age or, or stage of, of scholarship, that they may have b- may be in, but a person with real energy, curiosity, a desire to preserve and protect a collection, but also to make it known and used, and a kind of special warmth and a, and a, a kind of touch, human touch, that we don't often find joined together with someone with such a, a, a rich knowledge, such a true scholar, also such great, warmth, kindness, curiosity, energy, all in one, one human being. And so the idea of that experience stuck with me very much, uh, that, that day as someone first, first starting off, and continues to stick with me to this day as a kind of model of how t- how to encourage the future of, uh, of, of scholarship, of interest in collections and, and museums and many other things. Uh, so please join me in welcoming Barbara back to, uh, back to Notre Dame and give her a

Speaker 5 10:00

round of-

Living Vatican History

Speaker 3 10:00

Oh of applause. So, so as I said, I thought we would start with a couple of, uh, a couple of, of questions and see where our conversation, uh- Goes our convers- We'll see where it goes, see where our conversation, leads us and where it, it, it goes. so this has been an unusual, uh, or distinctive we might say, year for you, and the museums. So today is April 21st, so it was one year ago today that Pope Francis died. So after that time, Pope Leo elected on May 8th, followed by, uh, uh, a Jubilee. Pope Leo elected in the Sistine Chapel, which is many things, also part of the, the tremendous patrimony that Barbara oversees. So, uh, I, I guess my, my first question is, what- Tell us what it's like to live history as you did over the last 365 days of year, from the, the death of Francis, the conclave, the Jubilee, all these things packed into one year.

Conclave Logistics

Speaker 4 11:13

first of all, I, I am honored to be here. And, uh, I think, um, the friendship that links me to Notre Dame and to this place, um, maybe we, we can go later on. I want to answer to your question, before, but really there is a, a very strong link to, mmm, to this place and to this university. it has been a, a very, very, uh, interesting year. Interesting, uh, is, is reductive, uh, uh, as to say. you were talking about hope, and the Jubilee of 2025 was devoted to hope. So the-- Everything, uh, we, we planned for, for this great year, of course, in the museums, but in the entire Vatican City State and the entire Holy See was, was with this. So I, I like that you are following because, uh, it's one of the i-important virtues and, uh, and it is the one of the virtues that you don't see very much because faith, you can show that your faith. is, uh, charity, you can even show charity. Hope is something very intimate. So it's, it was very difficult for us to, to pass the, the, the message of a, of a Jubilee, of the hope in, in terms of, of, um... but hope, uh, helped us very much in, in, in this past year because of course we had, we started the year, uh, of course with the, with the opening of the Jubilee year, with opening all the holy door. We are part, the museum is part of, uh, of, of, the Holy See life i-in a, in a, in, in totally sense because of course, uh the museum, in, in the basilica, and if the basilica, we had to deal with Cardinal Gambetti, which is the archbishop of the basilica, to, to deal with, uh, all the people that wanted pass the holy door and to make the Jubilee and the ones that were coming out from the museum in the square and in the basilica. So we, we really planned i-in a, in a management way how to deal with the thirty, forty million people plus the seven million of our. So it was really a challenge and, and we made in the months before a lot of meetings with the Cardinal Gambetti and his staff and, and Our staff just to deal with, even with the security, so with the, with the guards and, and the Swiss guards and also with the, Gendarmeria, Gendarmerie, of the Vatican. then suddenly very, very, uh, i-in, in February, we have decided to, to have a, a jubilee even devoted to, art historians and artists. Not only artists, but all the people who are involved because, uh, the jubilee, m- you probably know, there are many categories of jubilees. And all over the year, there were almost 300 different categories of, of people, of, um, professions or, or typology that were coming to make the jubilee of category. And so I, I said to myself,"Why don't we do a, a, a jubilee of, um, of artists, but not only of artists, also for people like us, uh, like, uh, professors in university, like curators of, uh, museums?" And so I invited, some, some people, uh, in, in our field in a wide sense. So I invited the director of the National Gallery in London, the director of the National Gallery in Washington, several professors of university and other on, on the date of, um, of, uh, people from the galleries and, and, and different, different people and artists, of course, to f- to be together to think how we can use this hope and our, our work to a better work. To, to... And, and, and we, together with Cardinal De Tolentino, which is the cardinal of, uh, the culture, of the Dicastery of the Culture and Education, you might have contacts of course with him, we have decided to have, um, a, a statement, in which we as, as Catholics, we as artists, as people related with the work of art in a wide sense, artists and art historian, we, confirm the idea that we want to go on and we want to, testify our attention in our work, uh, to, to our faith, to our, our values, our, our spiritual and Christian values. And, uh, we did that on the day, on a special day, which is, uh, the day, of the artist, which is the day, the birthday of Beato Angelico, the 18th of, of February. in fact, for, for several reason we did it before, but it was in, uh- But it was the, the day, in which w- we organized all the symposium in the Vatican Museums in which Pope Francis was, went to the hospital. and so was a very striking day. But in the same day, everything happened, and in the same day from the hospital, he nominated a new, a new president, a new cardinal of the Vatican City State. So directed the, the person to whom I refer as director of the Vatican Museum in the Governorate of the Vatican City State, not a new cardinal, but a nun, a wonderful person, a wonderful and incredible person, uh, Suor Raffaella Petrini, that he named from the hospital in a very, in a very complex situation. So we were happy, we were sad, we were worried because of course... And this has to be because Cardinal Vélez was finishing, the cardinal president of that moment, that, uh, is a Spanish cardinal, was turning 80, uh, on the 1st of March. So this has to be done on 1st of March. So to lo- uh, cut a long story short, he was in the hospital and he ca- we-- he came back, but we had this passage, crucial passage. It's like changing the president of Notre Dame or e- even more for us because... So it, it was a big change, not, not, because, uh, i- in those days, Pope, Pope Francis seems to, to n- not, not a- able to, to survive. And then, and then March, g- went on, and then, and then, uh, A- April 21st, and, and today there will be, I, I don't know the hour, but probably, now, now, there will be a rosary in St. Mary Major where, where, and, uh, where he's buried. And as, as Vatican Museum, we, we, we deal with all the art, a- architecture and beni culturali, so all the, uh, artistical and architectonical, archaeological issue of the Holy See, not only of the Vatican Museum collection. We are superintendent, the, the director of the Vatican Museum and, is superintendent. So I'll go often in St. John Lateran, St. Mary Major, St. Paul Outside the Walls. So, so St. Mary Major is really dear, dear to me, and it's dear to me since my childhood because it's, it's magnificent church where my family used, used to, to go for, for many reasons, but for the devotion of, uh, specifically of the Salus Populi Romani, the great, the great painting to which, uh, Pope Francis was devoted. So, he-- i- i- it was a terrible time, his illness It was a very, very sad day a year ago for all of us and then started a history time for myself. I will never be again a long life to the present pope because being director of the Vatican Museum in a time of the conclave is a challenge, but it's something that really you feel to be part of history. And of course, it is the directorate of infrastructure of the governorate and Sister Petrini that seven, 10, all of that. But for us that we deal with the Sistine Chapel, we had to take off all the cameras, all the... Because of course, nothing has to be any influence. And we just had a new system a few years, a couple of years ago. So the

Speaker 3 20:26

whole security system has

Speaker 4 20:26

to be taken apart and taken out. All the security system has to be taken off. And then a lot of things have to be constructed because you have to have the level of the altar. So there are seven stairs that you have to make a level, all of that, because all the cardinal has to be close to the altar. And so they have to build it. And so you have to take care of the floor. The floor is a Quattrocento, is a 15th century floor, beautiful floor, cosmatesque. So you really have to care of that. And even, of course, we knew that all the eyes of the entire world would have been there. And so we had to make a little restoration everywhere, of course, because we had to take off the plexiglass that is in them. So a lot of issue. And in a certain moment, I was there inside with a ceremony, a couple master of ceremony with Sister Petrini and myself and with the director of the infrastructure. And they said, do you remember that there is a little window from Nobody knew because in fact, nobody of all of us were at the conclave 14 years ago, 14 years before. So of course, there is a protocol. There is the official protocol. But then you need And so really one of the last workers was the only one who was witness of the previous conclave. So he was a master of ceremony himself. But I focused that there was a little window From a staircase a- arriving to, that, mmm, that was in, in a little door. So nobody thought... And so we, we closed th- this door. We closed, we closed the window. So it was really, it was really And then, and then it started, uh, the conclave.

Speaker 3 22:39

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4 22:39

And of course we, we couldn't, we, we were, we were working, but we couldn't, uh, use, uh, cell phones because every- Of course all the line were, were, were so for, for few days we were of course, uh, so we had to go, two miles from, from the Vatican to, to make a phone call, uh, with the, with the cell phones. So it was w- it was nice because we were really feeling to be part and all the, all the, m- uh, the different preview o- of the, of the cardinals and, and of course I, it happens for me for the first time to know so many cardinals that could be could become pope. So i- because of course I, i- in my role since, uh, almost 10 years I, I had, I got to know a lot of the Curia, almost all of cardinals of the Curia. Uh, but also some cardinals coming from, from abroad because they often come and, and, and come to the Vatican Museum. So, and, uh, and, and so it, it was, uh, it was, uh, interesting that, uh, of course we were, we were there, we were there i- in all the smokes, uh, the time, the smokes in time, and we w- we were all going like it's a habit of Romans to be there, to, to want to be part. I, I remember the, the, the election of Benedictus XVI. I was working in the Vatican Library, and I heard a rang bell, and we all run. And it happens the same thing this time because, uh, because, uh, the, the, it was, uh, on the third, uh, uh, on the th- third elections, and so it was at the second day. And I heard the bells and, re- um, uh, singing. And so we all run. I, I run. I, in fact I was in, uh, in, in, in the car, uh, in the car of the museum and, and they, they I was going to, to, to a conference, uh, in, uh, in Rome, but I said,"I don't like these bells. I, I, I, I think there is something." Right. And so I, I, I went back and I, it happens to me to arrive the, uh, because of course the guards knew me. And in the meantime all Romans, all people are arriving, and all people running from the smoke is something so, so beautiful that you really Roman, mmm, people, not only Roman people, but all, all the people that, uh, are in Rome at, at this moment run, run and goes because, uh, it takes a while. It takes less than an hour in general. You never know. You never know. And, and you, I was there and you little by little you see, you see, you see arriving, arriving the, the people and, and it was, it was wonderful. It was wonderful. It's something that you, you never forget. And then in, in the next days there were, there were, there were other ceremony with the cardinals and, and when, when the name arrived, it was really, Pope Leo was really one of the popes or the cardinals that I really didn't know before because he arrived only two years, two years before and he really never came or officially came to the Vatican museums. And so of course I knew one of the major candidates was Cardinal Tagle, the Philippine cardinal of propaganda fide, and I knew him very well. But I saw from Sister Raffaella when, when, when, when he was announced, the smiling of Sister Raffaella because, because he was American, because he knew him. They were part of several committees together. So in that moment I realized that it was, it was a good thing in a wide sense because I trust her. I trust her. And so it was really very, very emotional. We were all there all together, all next, one next to the other. And, and it's really feeling to be part of the history. And even the funeral was, was something very, very touching. So it was really two or three months of really emotional and, and then, and then of course things can be changed because of Pope. A Pope is, is an absolute king if you want. It's the, I mean, I cannot say that in, but this gives you the idea that he, his will is, is exactly what we, we, we do. And so he could, he could change people. He could change all the charges of Curia when Pope dies are, are freezed and he have to renovate or to confirm all the charges. And so it's a, it's a But from the smile of Sister Raffaella, as I didn't know him, but I, I understood that it would have been-- and afterwards speaking with the previous cardinal president of the governorate that with, with whom I worked several years, I realized that it was one of two or three cardinals that really hold the congregations of cardinals would have, would have chosen for the fact that he's a person that know, know the Curia, know, knows the Curia, knows how, how it's run the Curia. So all the, all the dicasteries, all the different aspect of the organization of, of, of the Holy See, but also knows the dioceses from then the world. He was, he was in, in Peru, but he was in other parts. And so-- and then he was called by Pope Francis to be at the head of the dicasteries of the bishops. That meant that for two years and more, he knew, he knew all the, the new bishops. He knew all the, the problems and, and the good things of the different dioceses. So Pope Leo really, I mean, I'm an artist. I am not a, a Vatican politics, but he really knows his work, knows the place where he, he knows the task and, and he, and he knows the Curia because he was there since, since a few years. And so he get to, he get to know it. And having a young pope, because he's a young pope, he was so, so different when we, we met him and when I met him. It is so funny because he, he was so different from the last pope I had the chance to, to because I served three popes in my-- and this is the fourth pope because I served John Paul II while I was in the library, then Pope Benedictus, then Pope Francis. And, and the three before were, were people in the age and even not, not Pope Benedictus, but John Paul II was quite ill when I presented him several projects during the time I was a curator of prints in the Vatican Library. But Pope Benedictus, of course, he was, he was-- and I presented several exhibitions and he, he wanted to be a librar- the cardinal librarian, not to be pope. That he-- what he said to even to me when, when we met And then Pope Francis, of course, he was, uh, he was tr- strong, but he, he was weak, uh, in the last years. So, so having a young pope, with whom you, you, you can, you could see that he's, uh, he's, uh, he's young, he's bright, is, is, is in-- and in-- e- even if it's a very different, uh, personality from Pope Francis, is something that makes every- everybody happy, everybody happy. And, and the loss of Pope Francis was, was immediately, uh, passing, to, to the joy of having him. So really, really the, the, the, the, the feelings that we had, uh... And it was not only me. We, we, we shared that with, uh, with other colleagues and w- other people that I know. It's really, it's really a passage, and it is an, a nonsense passage. Of course, um, for me, today is a, is a special day because a year ago, and... But in the meantime, Pope Leo is a, is a present and the future and, and is a such a good choice that we-- the joy arrived. I don't know how to explain. Ah,

Speaker 3 32:19

okay. I like,"The joy arrived." I like this. Sí. I also like the smile, uh, of Sister Raffaella. That has to, that has to be a chapter in your memoir or- Sí or something. I want to ask you a question about art more broadly. and that is the question about-- So we, we have this category of objects that we call art, and that all of us would, would walk into the Raclin Murphy or another museum and say,"We're here to see art," and we recognize these things we're looking at as, as art. But this is a relatively new category. so for, for Christians, for more than a thousand years, there was no art. There were, objects that I like to think of as pathways to divine, and so what-- or, or ambassadors somehow of, of faith. So you were, you were working with or using a painting, a sculpture, uh, uh, whatever, whatever it was, as part of a, a practice of devotion and of faith. Can you, can you say something about how that fits into this work at the, at the museum?

Speaker 4 33:28

Allora, no doubt that, the Vatican Museums are-- I was, with, with Joe, this morning, going around the museum. I realized that in, in little, the museum wants to have the same mission of the Vatican Museum because it is, is a museum in a humanistic museum in a wide sense. Uh, and it's important for a university to, to have Such a, such a wide range of collections. Uh, but I, I want to point out that the humanistic, knowledge and the humanistic, um, f- different fields, or humanities of our collection, of Vatican collections, are part of, of the mission itself of the, of the Vatican Museum. No doubt that the, uh, important aspect of religious art because we-- our mission is to, to preserve a patrimony that is, of course, a patrimony of, um, of history, of art, but specific of devotion and faith. So this is a very, very important aspect, the devotion and the faith. And even if we have, like here in the museum that I, I was impressed this morning, we have, uh, the-- probably the most important, uh, collection of Greek and Roman antiquities. These are not- Yes are not- Yes religious Right Christian religious. For sure. But popes in Renaissance time collected them to take the legacy of those values, to, to bring from what they represent in, in, uh, heritage, in history, in devotion, in collecting even those to-- not to lose the knowledge, the legacy, and the history of the pre-predecessor of Roman Church, and they turn it to Julius II, Sixtus IV, and even the popes in Renaissance, i-in medieval time and of course in Renaissance time, they collected Greek and Roman and then later on Egyptian art, uh, Etruscan art, ethnographical from all over the world just to make bridges with different cultures, just to testify the open-minded that popes where cardinals, bishops, and, and laypeople around them wanted to build the church of. And this is beautiful because it gives you the idea of what is our faith. Even a Greek and Roman statue, even a, an Egyptian sculpture or an Egyptian object, even, uh, an ethnographical object coming from Mexico or from, uh, South America and from Asia. Now we open, uh, in, uh, twenty twenty-five, we, we s- we have celebrated hundred year from the missionary, uh, exhibition, hundred thousand pieces put together in 1925 thanks to Pius XI, a incredible pope that opened also to the wide public The Vatican Museum. So no doubt that, uh, in, in the past, Christian art was part of the life, but from the Renaissance time, but even, and even before I can say art was a vehicle to o-of course represent the invisible that presents spiritual values, but also to testify legacy knowledge and wanted to, to be part of values of different culture and bring them together to testify the truth in, in Christian and in, in Catholic church, Roman Church.

Speaker 3 37:24

I like

Speaker 4 37:24

it. I don't know, I don't know if I explained

Speaker 3 37:26

that. No, I like

Speaker 4 37:27

this very much because it's not my language yet, so I, I don't

Rome and Collecting

Speaker 3 37:29

know. I like this very much because it also fits into today is another important anniversary, I think for both of us. Uh-huh. I speak for both of us. April 21st is the, the- In born it's legendary, but-

Speaker 4 37:41

Exactly

Speaker 3 37:41

today is the birthday of Rome. She turns 2,779 years old- Exactly I think. Even though that's not correct, but that's what Livy tells us, so that's what we celebrate. Exactly. And so what you're saying makes me think of this all... There's something about Rome, yes. Say something about that, that makes all of these different things come together- See and make sense somehow.

Speaker 4 38:01

I'm Roman. I was born in Rome. I'm Roman. But Rome for me, even if, of course, I'm Italian and I'm part of it, but Rome for me is Vatican. Rome for centuries

Speaker 3 38:15

from, from Constantino, from when Constantino t- brought, brought the, to Constantinopoli, to Istanbul, uh, the present Istanbul, the,

Speaker 4 38:23

the kingdom of Rome. Rome stayed in, in popes. So, so speaking about Rome and speaking about the, the birth of Rome and popes were so, so open-minded to understand this important link with the Roman tradition, with Rome, and turn them into, into Christian art. Uh-

Speaker 3 38:47

Not to cancel, but to collect.

Speaker 4 38:49

Exactly. To keep

Speaker 3 38:49

making

Speaker 4 38:49

it bigger

Speaker 3 38:50

and bigger.

Audience Q and A

Speaker 4 38:50

Julius II w-wanted the, the... We, we pretend to have, uh, 500 years of museums, even th- even though the real museums in terms of institutional museums, uh, were born in, in... not in 1506, uh, thanks to Julius Se-Second, thanks to the discovery of the Laocoon, these great statues, that, uh, um, the pope, um, bought, uh, after sending Michelangelo Buonarroti to, to see what was the sculpture found, uh, on an excavation in, um, in one of the seven hills of Rome, and the rumors of this discovery, was that. But, but really, Julius II collected them But the institution, the institutionalized museum is only, Benedict XIV, uh, in 1756,'56 and then'62 was, uh, thanks to, to, uh, Clement XIII. So it was really only in the 18th century that the institution as museum. But popes collected and, and col- collection and it is a similar issue that probably arrives in so many different, uh, uh, aspects. So before establishing a museum, the idea of collecting things, collecting i- in the name of values, in the name of, of taking, and promoting the faith, in the name of sharing values, thanks to images that can tell you, tells you much more because they are much more direct than reading books, and they're much more, easily, uh, reachable- Mm an image. Of course, we are art historians and, and we, we deal with i- images. But in the past, the role played by images was so strong, much strong and powerful. So that is still today, I, I must say, even... And, and today with our devices, I, I, I don't have my cell phone but our devices that can reach you with i- with images, and we, we must learn how to use the devices in, in a, in a good way. And we, we tried because, uh, we have to take the good way of these devices that we, we, we see as devil sometimes. But in, in another way, they can help us very much. This morning at mass, I was, uh, one of the, the three priests that were celebrating was following the Gospels i- in, in the cell phone. I know, I know many, many priests that are using for, for pray or for, for... So, so we, uh, what I've learned in 20 years in Vatican Library, thanks to popes like Sixtus IV, uh, Sixtus V, uh, Pius XI in, in, in, in 20th century, is that they always look over, always look, uh- Nice in, in the future, always look to what, uh And always in a very high level. So I, I, I'm, I'm always say that I'm a, I'm a very privileged and blessed person because of the work that, that, uh, God decided for me, but also because, uh, it gave me the, the wisdom to, to understand all of that and to, to be part for a portion of my life And, and, and it's not really-- I, I, I don't know if you, you understand that it's really not, not something that I say because I'm here, because I feel that. I feel the privilege of having, having had the possibility to, to know so many things and so many, m- good people that worked for building a, a better world and, and, and, and, and the common good.

Speaker 3 42:51

Excellent. We have ti- we have time for questions. Yes. Do we-- And, and I do something magical with this? Yes. Okay. I'm looking at this.

Speaker 5 43:02

Oh, okay. Oh, and the font is very big.

Speaker 3 43:04

Okay. so we like this. what, we don't even need the glasses, Barbara. What, what encouragement would you give to Catholic universities in the US, in the United States, especially Notre Dame, to help them continue a strong commitment to undergraduate and graduate studies in visual art?

Speaker 4 43:23

Hello. Not only visual art. I am convinced that, in any university, I even-- In the, in the years I was, uh, I was, um, working in the Vatican Library, I was, um... And when I graduate, uh, and then I had my master in, uh, in Sapienza in Rome, University of Rome, one of the ancient, uh, university, uh, of, of Italy. it was found by, um, Boniface, uh, VIII- VIII so in 1302. So it's really an old, an old university. I'm convinced that any kind of a university, even if you are doing technology, even if you're doing, chemistry or, or chemistry or, or s- uh, science or, uh, medicine, you need to have a, a, a, a very important, uh, humanistic, background. of that I'm convinced. So what I can tell you to the students, never forget the humanistic side of your, your life, even if you will be a businessman, a banker, or whatever, because that will help you to know history, to know who preceded you, to know, the heritage of where you come from or where your ancestor come from, or where your country come from, is so, so important, to be a better person, to be a better person in any field you would like to express your, your, your energies. But for that, I'm convinced. And, uh, I think that, um, I think that this is, um, a I, I was in, uh, for the last four years in the, in the, uh, Consiglio Amministrazione. It's, um, the board of, uh, the Catholic University, i-of Italy in Milan, uh, which has a, a great tradition of humanistic studies. And I think even now is, is in business, is in medicine, of course, is a huge, a huge medicine. And I was in-- my apport to, to this, uh, board was to not forget the humanistic side, not forget and invest in, uh, in humanistic side, in even, uh, uh, in, in, in y-your kind of study in the building where we are, who conceive it and why was conceived, why is that building has that shape, and why, and what the meaning that this building can, can tell you with that shape or, or... So really the, uh, the humanistic knowledge as a, as a first step to, to, to then go wherever you want, in my opinion. I don't know if I answered to the question and I don't know who, who posed the question, if you want, to say if I answered to it, but, uh, I hope you understand what I was-- wanted to say.

Speaker 3 46:29

Yes. Next question. In your opinion, this is, this is gonna be a- Okay, tough this is a serious question. Okay. Is the chapel in the Raclin Murphy a work of art or a sacred space?

Speaker 4 46:41

I think it's both.

Speaker 3 46:42

Yes.

Speaker 4 46:43

I think it's both, of course, like any church.

Speaker 3 46:46

Great.

Speaker 4 46:46

but, uh, of course, any church I, I don't like when in Italy now there are some churches that, you have to pay a ticket to enter in. Ah.

Speaker 3 46:55

Okay, yes.

Speaker 4 46:56

I'm against that. I'm against, I mean, uh, it's not depending on me. Sometimes it depending, uh, unfortunately, from the Minister of Culture because of, uh, of the, this, uh, incredible, situation, political situation that the, after 1870, all the possession of the church passes- Went to the state through the seven tendons of, of the Italian government. But of course, the Italian government does many, many things to preserve them. But in the meantime, um, the-- But, but, uh, no doubt that, uh, a church for me, uh, uh, as person, uh, is first of all a sacred, place. But in the meantime, of course, I, I look about art, and I think that art can help even, uh, lay people, lay, m-m-m non, non, non-Catholic, non-Christian people to be closer, to be close to, to God, to be c- to, to inspire values, uh, spiritual values. And so it is very, very important that we still, take care of the churches. I tell you a story now, uh, I, I think about that. the prefect of the Apostolic Archive, mm, is a new, mm, Augustinian

Speaker 2 48:18

Yes. Yes

Speaker 4 48:19

wonderful man. Yes. He was appointed before Pope Leo's, three years ago, I think. And, uh, and he's a younger Augustinian man, a priest. very, very, bright and intelligent and, and, and very in his, his, uh, his work as, uh, I know from, um, from, um, the, the cardinal, uh, lib- uh, archbishop, uh, the, the cardinal librarian and archivist that, Monsignor Zanni that was, uh, it was his choice. And, uh, and we were talking because he was in the, in the board of, Cattolica. So on, uh, on the train we were speaking of the fact that he was looking for a person, uh, a right person to substitute the, the, the previous one. And he, he choo- he choose really the, m- a very, very good man, for running the secret archives, the Apostolic Archive, which, which held all the, uh, Holy See archives. So s- it's, it's very, it's a very important position. And, and he's also a very cultivated man. Uh, a very artistically because he, he, he, he, he lives in, in Santa Prisca, which is one of the churches of, uh, Aventine Hill. And, uh, and he, mm, he came to me once and he said to me,"I would like in, in Gennazzano," because Pope Leo went to Gennazzano, uh, uh, as one of the first, uh-

Speaker 3 49:47

Soon, early

Speaker 4 49:48

s- early, uh, when he was elected because he was very young, Augustinian, priest in Gennazzano. So he showed me a picture when he w- Pope Leo was very young there. And i- in Gennazzano, in the altar of the Virgin of Buonconsiglio, there are several popes that were important for, for the, the Virgin Mary of Buonconsiglio. And, uh, a- and in the, i- in the century, they depict, uh, Urban VIII. Then they depicted also, I don't remember which other pope, and then John Paul II. But there is a space left. So he asked me,"Barbara, could you find me a painter that could complete-

Speaker 2 50:29

This

Speaker 4 50:29

the church with a fresco?" And I immediately had it because, uh, we, we, in the, in the restoration lab, the, the, we have some restorer that are also decorative, and they teach our interns and our, uh, s- See interns how to make a, a fresco because we don't want to lose these additions. And so we-- he was there when I, I gave to Sister Raffaella. It was a... I, I don't remember when a Virgin Mary, made by the, by the students, by, by the interns. So he said to me, uh, he said, he-- this, this teacher could be the right person." So we, we, we made a project. we, uh, we went to Popolio and, and presented to him. He, he approved the project, but then we had to pass to Italy because- Ah the church belonged to Italy, so to the Sovrintendenza- Ah di Lazio.

Speaker 3 51:22

Okay.

Speaker 4 51:23

So we... Of Lazio region, which is a region of Rome. So he, he, he said to me, even if I, I'm part of the project, but n- he was the promoter and the Augustinians are the promoter because they, they are-- the church are depending on them. And, and so he said to me,"Oh please, Barbara, can you accompany me to, to the Sovrintendente?" Yeah. And of course, I knew the Sovrintendente, so she, she was-- she's a li- she's a she, so she was very nice, and she approve. And, and, uh, when I was in New York, she-- he sended to me, um, Padre Rocco Ronzani, the prefect of the archive, sent me a message w-with a letter, uh, of approval. Yeah.

Speaker 3 52:03

Ah, okay.

Speaker 4 52:03

So it will be done soon.

Speaker 3 52:04

Fantastic.

Speaker 4 52:05

hopefully because, uh, uh, on the 8th of, um, May, the Pope will go to Pompeii because, uh, the 8th of May i-is, uh, is the Madonna of Pompeii. Pompeii. And, uh, even with Pompeii, we have a lot of, uh, uh, of, relations because we found a painting by Mantegna, in, in the Pinacoteca in Pompeii, and we have restored it, and we have established that is a real Mantegna, and it was a lost Mantegna from Naples. And the archbishop, uh, in charge of the sanctuary of Pompeii, we become very, very close and, and he, he, uh, and finally, we decided-- he decided to have a, a painting gallery in the sanctuary devoted to, Virgin Mary. And this is a pick. Of course, the Mantegna is a pick, but, uh, we helped him to choose, uh, the other paintings, and we helped, uh, as Vatican Museum to, to make the, the painting gallery- Yeah uh, to, to build, with a climate system, with the lighting, with everything. And, uh, and, uh, he, he's so happy that the Pope decided to go there for the first, uh, anniversary. So it, it, it's, uh, it, uh... I don't know if you answered to the question. Yes. Sorry. I'm, I'm going somewhere.

Speaker 3 53:21

Yes. I ha- I have one last question. Okay. And it's, uh, it's, it's, uh, it's a very short question. Is-- I think the an- I, I, I think I have an idea of the answer, but I'm not sure. This i- this will never happen There's some kind of terrible, terrible event that takes place, a natural disaster. You can save one thing from the museum. Oh. What would you, what would it be? What would you pick?

Speaker 4 53:47

I would pick a person.

Speaker 3 53:49

Ah, okay. Okay.

Speaker 4 53:51

A staff, a staff person.

Speaker 3 53:52

You would pick a staff. Okay, fantastic.

Speaker 4 53:54

I will, I will pick up people because really what, what I- Wonderful. Thank you I learn in, um, in, um, that the people are most important than any, any work of art. Oh,

Speaker 5 54:08

fantastic.

Speaker 4 54:09

Sorry.

Speaker 5 54:10

Fantastic. Sorry

Speaker 4 54:10

to answer that.

Thanks and Gift

Speaker 5 54:11

Please join me in thanking one more time Barbara. And then Father Bob Dowd will

Speaker 54:23

return

Speaker 5 54:23

to- Yes,

Speaker 54:24

I'm back on stage. And, uh, Barbara, we are so grateful that you would visit us again. What we are so grateful for your friendship and, uh, all that you do at Vatican Museums. And, uh, just as a token of our appreciation- Can

Speaker 4 54:38

I, can I stand? Yes,

Speaker 54:39

you, you might.

Speaker 4 54:40

I don't want

Speaker 54:41

you to stand and I... Sorry. Our, a token of our appreciation in a special way, the appreciation of the Raclin Murphy Museum Advisory Council, I want to present to you this bronze by Father Anthony Lauck, who was a Holy Cross priest and artist here at Notre Dame. I think he directed the museum between 1960 and 1967, this bronze of Cardinal Newman.

Speaker 4 55:06

Ooh. And

Speaker 55:06

so-

Speaker 4 55:06

I'm very-

Speaker 55:07

Thank you very much. And, uh-

Speaker 4 55:10

Grazie.

Speaker 55:10

Grazie we're so grateful. Thank you. Thank you very much. It's a bit heavy.

Speaker 4 55:16

Bellissimo.

Speaker 55:17

Yeah. Thank

Speaker 4 55:17

you. I'm very close to Cardinal Newman for many, many reasons, so, uh- Beautiful thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 55:22

Beautiful.

Speaker 4 55:23

And he is the same artist of the, of the seminary, uh, stained glasses.

Speaker 55:28

Yes. Okay. That's the same artist. Of this one. Father, Father Lauck,

Speaker 4 55:31

yes. Okay. Beautiful.

Speaker 55:33

Thank you.

Speaker 4 55:34

Very, very dear to me. Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 55:39

Thank you. And thank you all for joining us this afternoon. Truly grateful. Heather, thank you for the wonderful conversation with Barbara, and I hope you all have a great, great afternoon and great evening. Thank you.