Revolutions of Hope, Part 10: Hope in the Headlines?

Episode Topic: Hope in the Headlines? 

In an era of state-sponsored disinformation, media serves as both a kinetic weapon and a vessel for national healing. Join us for a high-level dialogue on Ukraine’s struggle to decolonize its information space, offering a critical case study in neutralizing transnational authoritarian narratives and building systemic democratic resilience in a post-truth world.

Featured Speakers:

• Svitlana Khyliuk, Ukrainian Catholic University
• Katerina Sirinyok-Dolgaryova, University of Michigan
• Urszula Soler, John Paul II Catholic University of Lublin
• Olha Tkachenko, Institute of Slavic Studies, PAS

Read this episode's recap over on the University of Notre Dame's open online learning community platform, ThinkND: https://go.nd.edu/afd2cc.

This podcast is a part of the ThinkND Series titled Revolutions of Hope.

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Transcript

1 0:01

Dear colleagues, thank you to all of you for being here and for being engaged. It's not that easy task to stay tuned for the set day, so we are appreciate your presence and your attention and to your time to be here with us. And as you may see, this is a proper gender balance for International Women's Day

Welcome

Speaker 2 0:31

But we don't have a s- special prowess. Goźdź.

1 0:36

Uh, nothing is perfect. So, um, today, uh, we will continue our discussion about hope, and we will focus on hope and media, hope in headlines. And, um, reading recent news, you may see that, um, prohibition by official authority of use of certain words in official communications is a clear sign how powerful those words could be And we have already discussed that Russia uses, uh, arts, science, historical memory, literature, and also media as a weapon in this world. So media could be used to destroy a person, a dignity of a person, and also to destroy a dignity of the whole nation. On the other hand, hope, uh, m- media can be used to build a hope and to heal. And today's, uh, our wonderful panelists will present us several topical issue on this regard. We will start from the overview of how tradition of civic and political journalism of 20th century, and also dissidents and emigrant press of the 20th century became a foundation of, uh, for rising hope in the Ukrainian people for independence. And also we will discuss how this experience contributed to build value-based journalist, uh, journalism in Ukraine. Then we will proceed with analysis of, uh, how Russia use disinformation in this war against Ukraine, and how much this is rooted in the historical doctrine of said Rome. And to sum up, we will look into, uh, content of the Ukrainian Youku- YouTube blogs to analyze, uh, decolonization narratives there. And let me invite to the f- uh, and give the floor to our first presenter, uh, Dr. Kateryna Sireniuk-Dolhaliova. Uh, Dr. Kateryna, Sireniuk-Dolhaliova holds a, a PhD in social communication. Her expertise includes media and information literacy, global journalism, social media, and media edu- education. Dr. Sireniuk-Dolhaliova has participated in numerous international programs, including UGRAD, Fulbright visiting researcher. Today, to be a Fulbright researcher requires special courage. Uh, IREX, EULEAD, and Erasmus Plus fellowship in the UK, Sweden, and Poland. Please, floors is yours.

Speaker 3 3:43

Thank you very much. Uh, good morning, dear friends, and first of all, let me, uh, express my deep, uh, and best words of gratitude to Nanovic Institute of European Studies and all, all the co-sponsor of this fabulous event, this conference on Ukraine. Uh, my country right now, uh, is an epicenter of the tectonic geopolitical changes in the time that we call post-truth era. Uh, for of... We often refer, uh, to post-truth as something that is, um, uncertain, polarizing, disinformation and propaganda, uh, fueled by disinformation and propaganda, and everything we witness right now in, uh, our everyday reality. So but today I want to talk about values-based journalism and hope, um, in this world of post-truth, uh, and, uh, especially discussing Ukrainian case, uh, and Ukrainian media and journalism. okay So, um, as you may mention, um, through-- there was no easy path for Ukrainian intellectuals to develop Ukrainian media system. Uh, and as my colleagues, uh, in previous days, uh, talked about this a lot, uh, that Ukrainian culture, it's a culture of suppression and revival. Uh, the same with media. For several centuries, Ukrainian lands, uh, were colonized by neighboring, uh, empires. Western Ukraine obviously colonized by Poland and Austria-Hungary, Eastern Ukraine and Southern Ukraine by Russia. Uh, and, um, the first... I'm sorry. The first, um, attempts to publish, uh, print press occurred not in Ukrainian language on Ukrainian land, uh, and it was in the 18th century. Uh, the languages that, uh, were used back then were German, Polish, uh, French, and Russian, and the first-ever print press appeared on Ukrainian land was in French language, uh, Gazette de Léopold, Lviv's newspaper. Um, in Kharkiv, that was, uh, Kharkivskyi Yezhenidelnyk, Kharkiv's weekly, that was first published in Russian language, and the-- only in 1848 was the first ever published Ukrainian language print newspaper called Galicia Star, uh, Zorya Halychska. Uh, other newspapers and literally almanacs, uh, were established in Odesa, Kharkiv, Lviv, and Kyiv. Um, actually, literally, almanacs became the most popular format in which poets, uh, historians, scholars could publish their works in Ukrainian language. Um, in 19th century, uh, culture and independent media, uh, were suppressed, uh, by Russian Empire, um, most of all by Russian Empire. And, uh, you see that, um, the Lviv Circular, Ems Ukase, uh, were the political censorship acts, um, that banned basically everything Ukrainian: literature, theater, education, and of course, media, of course, press But when something is suppressed, it will always find the way to, uh, revive. Hope is something imminent to Ukraine, uh, to Ukrainian human nature and just human nature. Uh, Ukrainian intellectuals were looking for, uh, keeping their culture alive, uh, in any possible manifestation. Uh, so such way was found, uh, in publishing literally, uh, scholarly almanacs in Russian language but about Ukraine. Uh, one of them, Berdyansk Starina, uh, published in Kyiv in, uh, 1880s and 1890s. Uh, and of course, outside of Ukraine, uh, mainly European countries, uh, there were a lot of attempts to publish, uh, Ukrainian press, Ukrainian language press. One of the very impo- uh, important and famous examples, Rusalka Dnistrova. Uh, 20th century, um, was the most dramatic, uh, for Ukraine in its fight for independence. Uh, short periods of time when Ukraine got its independence between, uh, 1917 and 1921 were the time of Ukraine's People Republic, but unfortunately, uh, the following decades, uh, were the time of Soviet suppression. Uh, Ukrainian independent press, uh, had to move abroad, uh, had to move in exile, and, um, those that left, uh, of course, that Renibur media, 100% media of propaganda, uh, and controlled by communism, Communist Party. Uh, but revival of Ukrainian media happened, uh, in the form of, uh, dissident, uh, dissident activities, um, uh, and, uh, Samvadav Press. 60 years, uh, well-known Shizdesyatniki were the, um, the m- the movement that, uh, helped to keep it alive, to kept-- keep the Ukrainian word, Ukrainian published, uh, print word alive. Um, and, uh, of course, um, some of the magazines that published, um, in Soviet Union like Zhovtan Vichizna, Ranok, Dnipro, uh, also hold their, um, uh, publications. No doubts that legacy of Ukrainian dissidents and their values of, uh, freedom, human rights, uh, and cultural pluralism became a fertile soil for, uh, new Ukrainian media that, uh, appeared in late, uh, 1980s and beginning of the 1990s. Uh, glasnost and perestroika, the policies of freedom of speech and rebuilding in late days of USSR, um, they brought back the attempts to publish Ukrainian press in Lviv, uh, mainly in Lviv and Kyiv, but, uh, all over, uh, Ukraine. Uh, since 1991, new media outlets were organized, uh, and based on the principles of professional journalism, not propaganda. Among them are well-known publications, Zerkalo Tyzhnia, Day, uh, daily newspaper Day, and, uh, very, very well-known right now, Ukrayinska Pravda, the first online paper in Ukraine. However, uh, 1990s and early 2000s were the time when the challenges and problems occurred. Um, newly appeared oligarchs often associated with Russia, uh, attempted to control media market for serving their political and economic interests. Um, this, um, this time, uh, was the time of the rise of, um, gensa and temniki. Gensa, bribes for coverage in favor of certain politicians during the electoral seasons, and temniki, unofficial, uh, instructions from media owners and, uh, presidential administration back then, um, uh, how to frame, the stories. This was the time of kidnapping, torture, and high-profile murders of journalists. Um, and of course, the wo- the, the most tragic and well-known case was the case of Georgi Gongadze, uh, who was beheaded, uh, for criticizing, uh, political establishment back then in Kuchma's office, um, for corruption and suppression of media freedom. Uh, this murder, uh, shook the society and, um, caused the civic massive protest action, Uk- Ukraine Without Kuchma. Uh, and of course, the following Orange

New Media After 2014

Speaker 3 11:14

Revolution and Revolution of Dignity were also, uh, very much, uh, the continuation of these protests. Um, nine- uh, 2014 and Revolution of Dignity, the following years, um, in the following years emerged, um, the important players of Ukrainian media market. Um, first broadcasting, uh, broadcasting, um, public broadcaster, uh, UA Suspilne. Uh, very important investigation, investigative projects like Bihus.Info, Schemy, and others. Uh, independent media, Hromadske.TV, Hromadske.Radio, uh, numerous other journalistic and fact-checking projects. However, uh, full-scale Russian war against Ukraine caused a new spin of suppression of Ukrainian culture and media. Russian disinformation and propaganda machine c- concentrated on spreading among different audiences, including Western and, uh, the audiences of Global South, the narratives of great Russia, great victory, Ukraine as a failed state, and numerous others. Uh, Russians physically destroy Ukraine's cultural objects, burn history books. Um, after occupying the territories of Ukraine, they immediately banned, um, Ukrainian cell signals, radio and TV broadcasting, uh, and internet, uh, and switched to Russian networks. They occupied newsrooms, um, editorial offices with Russians, uh, propagandists, uh, and recruit local people to work for so-called new media So how can we counteract, how we can, um, work towards countering this disinformation and propaganda? Uh, and this is telling the truth, telling the truth in the way, and this is the, the way to fight back it. Uh, Ukrainian, uh, watchdog Institute of Mass Information, uh, published the list, a regular published list of white media. You see some of them on the slide. Uh, and, uh, this media are, uh, being selected on the basis of being professional standards, uh, and being reliable sources of news for Ukrainian society. A lot of quality journalism projects, uh, appeared recently in Ukrainian and English languages about Ukrainian history, uh, about these gaps and wide pages of Ukrainian history that, uh, were created during the Soviet regime, such as Holodomor, Stalin's terror, massive deportations, Chernobyl catastrophe, and others. Uh, some of them are Ukra- Ukraїner, uh, Istorychna Pravda, Ukraina Incognita, and others Um, Ukrainians journalists s- are striving to do their job professionally, and sustain democratics values. They search for different ways to approach their audiences during the war. Among such approaches are solution journalism and peace journalism, uh, that are seen as a conflict sensitive opposition to the violence of war reporting. Uh, American, uh, scholar Steven Youngblood provided such definition of the term peace journalism, and I quote, "When editors and reporters make choices, uh, that improve the prospects of peace, how to frame stories, and carefully choosing which words to use, um, without compromising the basic principle of good journalism." End of the quote. Uh, so, uh, in my work, I try to answer the question, uh, is peace journalism possible during the wartime? Uh, and the spoiler is yes, I think it's possible. I tend to refer to peace journalism as an umbrella term based around its key role, uh, searching for solutions of problems. Uh, there are two leading concepts, uh, constructive journalism and solution journalism, and both, uh, are m- about avoiding negativity bias, protect, provide contextual thematic reporting, uh, and aim to increase trust and empowering audience Um, so this empowering angle of solution-based reporting became critical for Ukrainians, um, during the full-scale Russian invasion. Keeping up public morale, um, is one of the objectives of government-led United News Marathon, also heavily criticized right now by professional community and, um, different other actors. Uh, but in this mediascape, analytical, investigative, and solutions media, uh, found a unique niche, to provide Ukrainians with, uh, diverse information. Uh, in order to examine the ways, uh, how media practice peace and solution journalism in Ukraine, I investigated, uh, the case of major Ukraine solution media, uh, called Rubryka, uh, founded into, uh, 2018 and with a, a readership over three million, um, subscribers daily. Uh, its editorial policy says, and I quote, "We collect stories, explain how and why they work or fail, what the people implementing them encountered, the results, and how the solution can be scaled." so after analyzing the content of online media Rubryka, I found, uh, it's a- after the full scale invasion, uh, tw- 2022 content, um, I found that it is a sos- social- s- uh, socially responsible media that orients on mobilizing the ru- the public for action through volunteering, charity, participating in different charities, eco initiatives, startups, and entrepreneurship. Uh, they utilize proactive people-centered and solution-based principles, uh, of reporting. They publish success stories, uh, stories about mentoring, leadership, international cooperation. Uh, of course, the grand theme is the war and post-war recovery, and they represent this theme, uh, throughout all the rubrics of Rubryka, um, and target such dominant issues, uh, in war-torn Ukraine, like mental and physical health of citizens, problems of the military, destroyed infrastructure, uh, recovery, and energy efficiency during the wartime. Solutions are proposed through, uh, realization of volunteering and state, uh, initiatives through, uh, for example, grants, subsidies, policymaking, uh, continuum of decommunization and democratization initiatives, uh, growing of the volunteer network Um, so in conclusion, I want to note that centuries of the oppression and revival of Ukrainian media proved that values-based journalism, uh, is a core for strengthening civil society and democratic values in Ukraine. Uh, Ukrainian ca- case suggests that independent media, values-based media, uh, become, becoming vital for country in the state of the war. Uh, they help heavily traumatized society, unfortunately, Ukraine belongs to this, uh, to recognize work and potential- and w- to recognize work and potentially overcome traumas. Uh, this is important aspect of building Ukraine's resilience and sustaining hope, uh, as a positive factor of the post-war recovery. Thank you.

1 19:09

Thank you so much for your presentation. And one, one more example. In order to understand what does it mean for Ukraine media, I would like to, uh, recall one fact from our recent history. Revolution of Dignity started with one post made by a journa-- at that time, journalist of, uh, Ukra- Ukrainska Pravda, Ukrainian Truth, Mustafa Nayyem. And he, in his post, he, uh, which was published in social media, he invited his friends to take a hot tea and warm clothes and good mood at, to come to Maidan Nezalezhnosti to protest against government decision to stop EU integration for Ukraine. So we can move forward, and our next presenter is Dr. Urszula Solar, uh, associate professor of John Paul II Catholic University of Lublin. By the way, our former rector graduated from that university. Uh, and, uh, currently, uh, Dr. Solar is a visiting scholar at Nanovic Institute for European Studies. And, uh, she specialized in the study of new technologies in the context of social interactions and security. And also her research interests include technology assessment, cybersecurity, disinformation, and information warfare. And, um, we will, uh, we are privileged to listen to the presentation on Russian disinformation and the war in Ukraine, a legacy of propaganda.

Speaker 4 20:47

So she's here. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you to this wonderful audience. I, I wanted to say that I feel almost like home here already. Thank you, Nanovic Institute, for this invitation. Uh, today, uh, I wanted to talk about something different. Uh, this is already third day that we're talking about Ukraine, what is going on there, how is going the, the war in different, uh, ways. But I would like to brought your attention today for something different. I would like to talk about Russia.

Why Russians Support War

Speaker 4 21:26

Because already three years have passed, uh, from, uh, full-scale invasion, Russians invasion in Ukraine, and already more than 11 years of, uh, Crimea occupation. And for sure many of you, uh, Ukrainian citizens for sure, but, uh, many people in Western countries, in United States, three years ago were asking those questions, "Why this, this is happening? How it's possible that the war which, which is sim- really similar to the war which happened w- almost 100 year ago is going to happen again?" We, all of us, we remember Bucha, we remember, uh, Mariupol, we remember other cities in Ra- in Ukraine that was completely destroyed in the way like, uh, Second World War was. We were expecting that this war will be different. Uh, I'm talking mostly from a Polish soci- sociological, uh, perspective because I'm sociologist. We were expecting this war. We knew that it will happen, but we were expecting something different. So we're expecting cybersecurity threats, we're expecting some kind of, uh, uh, destroying infrastructure in Ukraine, and so on and so forth. But what Ukraine is living in, it's something completely different that we were thinking about. So my question was, why? Why it happened? How it's possible that, uh, also Russian citizens are allowed to do that? Why they're allowed to do that? Why they don't protest? Why they didn't went out to the streets? They tried, some of them at the beginning, but it finished so early and so fast. So... And why they support it? They are... When, uh, they were doing some, uh, questions on Russian streets, Russians people were saying, "Yeah, yeah, we support Putin. We trust him. He was our leader, so for sure he's doing right thing." Why it happened? And this today I would like to think about that, why it happened, why they are living in this kind of world, and why they believe it. It's not, not only a fear, but they... some of them really trust to the situation, and they trust they, that they had to do that. Why? So this is my, uh, the most important questions. As you can see already on the first slide, that's supposed to be a bit later. Here you can see, uh, one of a very famous book in Russia, which is talking about, uh, how the situation in, uh, the end of s- 20 century was involved. As you can see here, I wanted to propose two kind of Russian obsessions, that we call it obsessions. So it was a historical invasion of Tatar Mongol on Russia, Tatar Mongol troops in Russia in 13th century and after occupation of Russia. And the second biggest one, as we think that is the biggest for Russia, is collapsed of, of the Soviet Union. Soviet Union, which was completely... which was, was so important for Russia because they created again, wonderful, huge country. So in this book, uh, you can, uh, by Egon, Igor Panarin, you could read that, uh, USSR collapsed only because of Western propaganda. So United States was, uh, fault of that, and Western countries was, uh, had fault for that, but not internal Russians problems. They're never guilty, yeah? So this is important part of the way of thinking that they present. At the beginning of, uh, my, um, m- my, my tr- my try to explain why it's going on like that, I would like to show you some, uh, definitions. I know that definitions are boring, but these, these definitions are a bit different because I would like to show you how Russians understand the most important for this war words. So I would like to start with, uh, peace. What is peace for us? Peace is a lack of war. Yeah, it's something that we feel good in, we can rest, we don't have to worry about. What is peace according to Russian dictionary of, uh, peace and war and, uh, security? So one of the sentence that we can find in the definition of peace is: Peace prior to the war contains overt and covert elements of preparation for the future military confrontation So we are never in peace. We're preparing for war. This is time of peace. Is this the way of thinking that we have? I didn't have that. I don't know about you. So, peaceful coi- coexistence does not exclude the id- ideological and informational confrontation, economical, very military technology, technological competition. So in the peacetime, we are doing different kind of war at the end. Yeah? We are never in a peacetime. Then national security, the state of protection of vital national, national interests in the economic, political, military environment and so on, uh, things. And but, uh, to, to protect, protect us of potential threats, so we're always ready. We should be ready. With this one you can agree. In national security, we have to be prepared for everything because we know that it can happen.

1 27:45

Yeah?

Speaker 4 27:46

But what is the most important for this national security? The most important is the unity of the nation and the preservation of its tradition and spiritual and moral way of life. So Russians need to be united and have to think in the same way, also as a security. They need to be prefer, prepared in the same way. And the important part of the, of the security is spiritual sec- s- spiritual security, which is a component of national security expressed in the quality of national identity, reflecting the tradition of living arrangement of society, its culture and history, as well as a level of moral and political unity of society. The most important part of spiritual sec, uh, uh, security is ideology, literature, information security, and so on. So this is really important part of Russian way of thinking. Finally... sorry, I didn't move it. Finally, we have war. What is war? I just want to remind that I'm reading definitions from Russian dictionary. Uh, war is a social political phenomenon associated with a radical shift in the nature of relations between states and nation marked by the tr- transition of opposing sides from no war, nonviolent form, and methods of struggle to the direct use of weapons and other violent means of armed conflict. So war, it's not the, just the beginning of our attack. It's just changing methods from the peacetime. Yeah, so we were in war before, but a peaceful war, and now we just start to combat in the regular way as we saw in Bucha So form of struggles, as you see, there are armed, diplomatic, ideological, but it's also information and psychological form of struggle.

Information War Doctrine

Speaker 4 30:00

And then we have information war. Information war is an intense confrontation in the information space, uh, which its goal is achieving information, psychological, a- and ideological superiority, damaging information system processes and resources, as well as critical structures and communications, undermining political and social systems along with the large-scale psychological manipulation of military personnel and the general public. So this is the information war. And as a military political category, m- uh, information war includes set of activities aimed, uh, at undermining the morale of the population and the personnel of the armed forces of the enemy. So we need to put them down morally, yeah? As well as protection from the same actions of the part of the enemy, so they know how they want to attack, and they know that it would be really tough for the enemy, so they are prepared for the same. Yeah? And then we have information war in a peacetime. I just want to remind you, we're always in war in Russia. Information war in peacetime is held in the form of information confrontation in all spheres of public life, economics, politics, social relations, and spiritual sphere, and especially in ideology. I know that we are talking here mostly about Ukraine and disinformation Ukraine and, uh, propaganda, but what we could observe in Europe for, I s- suppose it's the same United States, for many, many years that this Russian disinformation was present in many different fields, not only about Russia. Russia is only a few years ago. Uh, two, three years before in, uh, Russian invasion in Ukraine, Poland needed to survive huge disinformation about, uh, Volhyn, what happened in, uh, Ukraine 100 years ago. It was mass scale disinformation in Poland. At the beginning, we were thinking why it's going on, why it's happening, and after that we understood why. What do you think why? Because Russians knew that Poland will be the first country for Ukrainians to escape to, so they wanted to make us enemies, to close our borders. Didn't work, of course, as we know, but it was the, the idea. Yeah, so they were preparing the situation. And also we could observe a lot of different disinformation about 5G technology, which is so important, and it was mass scale, the disinformation, because Russia didn't develop it, uh, so quickly, so they wanted to stop other countries and other very important economical developing of, uh, Western Europe mostly. Yeah. Okay. Two minutes already. How? I just start. Okay. So, uh, I will leave this presentation, so I'm not able to show everything what I want, but I want to tell you about one important things. Uh, so I will switch it to this immediately. I wanted to talk about, uh, Fort Rom, this con- concept of Fort Rom, which is really important for Russian way of thinking, how they need to be prepared and fight all the time. Uh, but I will not talk about this because we don't have time, but Russia, Russia thinks it- itself like a country that need to be the last important preservation of the church or of the- of the Orthodox Church, so they need, uh, to use ideology to be the special, uh, country like, uh, Israel used to be in our history. So now Russia is and must combat for that, and they use it, uh, they use different methods for that of propaganda. They w- were talking about a lot during this conference, but there is one thing that I want to show you at the end, if I may.

Speaker 2 34:27

you should.

Speaker 4 34:28

They use a lot of literature, and there is a special kind of literature that w-- sorry, we discovered, uh, recently, which is called Popadanstvo. I don't know if you have heard about that. It was pretty surprising for me when I discovered this term. Popadanstvo is a, a new kind of literature that was created more or less, uh, uh, 20 years ago, uh, and it's continuously published. It is the way of fiction story where Popadantes, which is like ordinary person, is going back in the past to change what happened in the past, so to improve it, to make it better in the way that they could change a history and make it better for Russia today It's so popular. As you can see... Sorry, I just didn't, uh... No. Oh yeah, there is here. There is m- at, at the moment we were able to, uh, discovered 167 authors of such books which are publishing all the time. Mo- most of them are men. We're in Women's Day today, so more of them than men. And they continuously publish to go there in the past to change the past to have better Russia today. I will give you, uh, I gave you some examples of those books today, but I will read you titles in English. So for example, Uk- the first one, Ukraine Is Covered In Blood. This is the first book. Second, Brezhnev: The Best Manager of the 20th Century. Third one, To Be Proud, Not To Repent: The Truth About the Stalin Era. So they, they change the Stalin era. Fourth one, Popadantes On The Throne. Fifth one, Corporation Russian America: Outpost of the Mississippi. And the last one, my favorite, Comrade Hitler, book two, Hang Churchill! They are books which are continuously published in Russia, and you can buy it very cheaply, like for $1. They, they are donated by the state to, for people to read them. Why? To brainwash, to show that it's so important, that Russia is so important that they need to combat, they need to fight because the past was so important and the, the present is so important. I didn't tell you everything what I wanted, but this, what, what I want to tell you today, they believe in that because they have this huge brainwash for at least five centuries in Russia, and it continues all the time And sometimes, uh, I c- I feel sorry also for them. Of course, they are, uh, against U- Ukraine, they are k- uh, against the Western world because they have to. We had the same propaganda in Poland for 20 year- 30 years during the communist time. We had to, we had to. It was only 30 years, so we remember how it was before. They don't. So this is the Russia today.

Art as Counterforce

Speaker 4 37:51

But the, my last slide can be a bit controversial, but I want to show you that Ukraine fight back, and it will fight back, and I suppose it will win with us, with our help. But this is the situation which one of Ukrainians', uh, artists see today. Ukraine, Ukraine is a mu- Me Too concept, so, uh, in the context of what is going on, uh, right now in United States as well, a lot of people are thinking that Ukraine is a bit, uh, earn this, this situation, that this Ukraine war, that they have a problem. It's not problem of the world. So she wanted it. That's why she, you have it. The artist of this draw is Matilda, known online as a girl. The girl who fell on Earth is an artist and social media personality who shares her creative works and personal insights through platforms like Instagram and Facebook, and it is one of many examples of how art and independent media, uh, can, uh, counterforce the Russian propaganda. They can do that outside Russia. They would never do that in Russia according to me. Thank you.

1 39:14

Thank you. And, uh, we have our set, uh, presenter, uh, Olga Tkachenko. Olga Tkachenko is researcher at the Institute of Slavic Studies, Polish Academy-- in the Polish Academy of Science. Uh, uh, Olga Tkachenko holds a PhD in social science with a focus on media studies, uh, from Warsaw University. Also, she has a MA in journalism from Ivan Franko Lviv National University. And, um, uh, Olga is a principal investigator of the project, uh, Decolonization Processes in Ukraine's YouTube segment after, uh, February 24th, 2022. And, uh, we will h-- In a few minutes, we will, or even seconds, we will hear the presentation, Decolonization Processes in Ukraine, Ukrainian YouTube, New Hope to Deconstruct Imperial Myths. Uh, floor is yours.

Speaker 5 40:16

Thank you very much. Uh, thank you, thank you for opportunity to present, and, uh, uh, I apologize for my voice. I do not speak normally like that because just as the American fresh air doesn't serve good to my throat, uh, uh, but I, I'm trying to do my best and not to lose this voice entirely. So today I'm gonna talk, uh, about, uh, uh, Ukrainian YouTube as a specific platform which is still in between, uh, traditional media and social media. And, uh, as it was saying, in wartime Ukraine, there is very, uh, important to know the role of mass media, the role of social media. According to, uh, research of OPORA, it's Ukrainian think tank, uh, YouTube, uh, is, uh, the second, uh, social medium after Telegram, uh, of when Ukrainians-- where Ukrainians learn new information. So it become one of the most important opinion-forming platforms in Ukraine, particularly among the youth. As for my research, I'm interested in YouTube as a site for pa-participatory culture, uh, and I, uh, analyze, uh, bottom-up initiatives, so I do not include the YouTube channels of traditional state, uh, or private media So, um, a few words about Ukrainian segment, uh, of, in Ukrainian YouTube. The year 2021 recorded at this turning point when Ukrainian YouTube began to, uh, confidently substitute, uh, the pro-Russian channels because, uh, up to that, uh, that was very, um... The Ukrainian YouTube was dominated by, uh, Russian content or Russian-speaking content.

Decolonization and Imperial Myths

Speaker 5 41:54

And, uh, uh, in my presentation, there is a word decolonization. Uh, of course, uh, y- this word is not new for Ukrainian studies, but, uh, it's, uh, uh, relatively new for media studies. And, uh, to be clear, uh, what I understand, uh, under the word decolonization in my YouTube research. So for me, uh, uh, I see it as, uh, mm, decolonization in the sense of, I quote, "Revealing and dismantling colonialist power in all its forms." This is very applic- applicable, uh, to mass media and, uh, popular culture because this colonialist power, which remained in independent Ukraine as well, in the sphere of media and pop culture, was very, very often invisible and, or very well camouflaged Uh, another concept which is in my title of my presentation is imperial myth. Uh, so, um, uh, here I refer to the article of Taras Kuzio, uh, where he, uh, talks about three imperial myth about Ukraine as Ukraine as an artificial state, Ukraine and Russia as brothers, and finally, Ukraine and Russia is one nation, edin narod myth, so-called. Uh, so in my media, uh, in my research of YouTube, uh, this, um, I will refer mostly, uh, to this edin narod myth, uh, one people, because, uh, well, being a fail, artificial failed state and, m-m, Ukraine and Russia as brothers, it kind of unites to this, uh, one nation, edin narod myth. uh, indeed, in popul- uh, so, um, mm, this is, uh, t-to, to help to, uh, to, to research my YouTube content, I created, uh, such code of decolonization, and I wish I could comment on each of them, but you can see they're, uh, here. Uh, but because of the timing, I will co- uh, focus myself on this, revealing Little Russianism and blurring cultural boundaries, because to my mind, it reflec-reflect the most, uh, this deconstruction of, uh, edin narod, m-one, uh, one people, uh, myth, uh, in Ukrainian, uh, YouTube. Uh, and this code is present in 22 channels of, out of my, uh, almost 50 channels corpus. Mm, uh, so, um, uh, this is, uh, the sli- uh, the, the, the, there will be a couple of slides which, uh, I, I, I want to show you, uh, the number of subscribers and the real number of views of Ukrainian decolonial content on YouTube, because I divided it, uh, to four categories, uh, and, uh, I want to show it because, uh, you-- the number of subscribers is really low because, uh, the subscribers even, uh, m-more than half a million, and you can see here that the, it's 4 million, the, the biggest number, but the number of views is much more higher. So this is a hope that people, uh, m-m, uh, s- watch this decolonial content, and there is a hope that they, uh, perceive this information about, uh, refuting the myth, imperial myth. But here for, to, for comparison, you can see the total statistic of the most popular YouTube channels with the Ukraine as a location of production, and you can see the r- language of this channel. Um, uh, pay attention to the second position. This is Masha and the Bear. It's, uh, in Ukrainian, and it is on the second position among Ukrainian speak-- uh, the first position among Ukrainian-speaking YouTube, and the second among all Ukrainian, uh, YouTube with location Ukraine as a pr- l-location of production. So, but this, there is another question which we can discuss, uh, i-in later. Uh, uh, here is my, uh, YouTube channels of, uh, where I analyze, uh, the deconstruction of this, uh, mm the, the Odin Narod myth. And you can see here that the, they, they are, they do not compete with this Russian-speaking, uh, Ukrainian segment in Ukrainian YouTube. But still, uh, the positive moment is that the number of subscribers increase, uh, because you can see here the data from, uh, 2024, 2025, uh, except of these two channels. It's Serhiy Prytula's Ukrainian volunteer channel. He unfortunately lost, uh, the subscribers and Na Poshyku Hramoty, In Search of the Letter, very well, very interesting content, uh, uh, YouTube channel Uh, here is the thematic scope of these channels, and you can see that the three, mm, first places are, uh, goes, uh, go to culture, society, and show business. As for the construction of, uh, uh, imperial myths, imperial myths about edin narod, uh, they, uh, this, uh, narratives was mostly present on Ukrainian YouTube in content about show business and pop culture, movies and TV series, and comedy shows. And next, uh, I will present couple of examples how Ukrainian YouTubers deconstruct this, uh, imperial myth. This, as you can see, the channel of Tetyana Mykhaylenko called Rahulivna, uh, where she talks about the harmful impact of the Ukrainian show business completely dominated by Russian money and Russian language almost in every her video. However, among others, Tetyana Mykhaylenko produced, uh, a cycle of videos called Star Wars, of course, with the references to pop-popular s-saga about the fight between empire and, uh, the dominated one. So Mykhaylenko calls, uh, even her first video as in the classic, uh, uh, Star Wars series, the Episode IV: New Hope, um, where she shows that, uh, right after gaining independence in 1990s, Ukrainian show business and popular culture was noticeable, were noticeable, Ukrainian speaking and really making new hope for development. But then she shows in the next episode, uh, that, um, that was noticed by Russian media bosses, but firstly probably by ideologists and propagandists of Russian world, and Ukrainian pop stars started to be bought and tempted, uh, by bigger money and wider audience. So not only symbolically Ukrainian, um, media, Ukrainian pop stage put on kokoshnik, it's, you can see here, the Russian, uh, women headwear. Uh, however, singing in Russian, uh, and earning Russian m-m-money was not the worst which happened to Ukrainian show business. Uh, the greatest invisible harm, mm, was made in effect by this popular culture and imperial narration step by step in post-common cultural space. Uh, mental boundaries were blurred and cultural, and the myth of one nation and brotherhood was cultivated and transmitted through the blue screen. And here you can see then an example from Slavic Bazaar Festival, which take place in Vitebsk. It is an example from 2009. It's like, you know, almost recently, where three singers, uh, Russian, Uk- from Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus sang a song. You can see the lyrics here, it's a kind of non-professional translation, about three sisters which are, uh, so close and live together in the one home. What home? We can just imagine, yeah, because that was o-o-of course sang in Russian Uh, mm, so but sa- by such content, uh, Tetiana Mykytenko shows, uh, makes contemporary viewers to understand how they, we are, we were manipulated Ukrainians, and make us think critically now.

Nostalgia and Soviet Memory

Speaker 5 48:53

Um, apart from blurring cultural boundaries, uh, the myth about one nation in, in pop culture was cultivated also by creation common memories and nostalgia about the Soviet past as a warm bath, uh, for all of the nation. And here you can see also one of the episodes of Tetiana Mykytenko's blogs when she shows that common historical memory was, uh, uh, kind of imposed even it was, it, it's 2000, uh, 2019. This is, uh, here on the right, uh, by the reanimation of Soviet mass culture and Soviet songs and ad- adaptation to the present. I wish I could also show you this, the old clip of it. It's a cover on Ukrainian p- on, uh, uh, cover in Ukrainian on popular Soviet song, Klon Zeliony, where this total, mm, uh, like, uh, nostalgia and, uh, mm, uh, you know, showing the Russian ar- the, the great Russian army, Soviet army, the, the, it... And creation this common memories that's referenced to, uh, Anthony Smith's, uh, uh, mm, theory of common identity even, uh, of a national identity. The second example, it's, uh, uh, about, uh, um, nostalgia and emotion elements as instruments of Odin narod myth when, uh, almost all families in Ukraine, Russia, and Belarus, uh, used to watch, uh, Soviet movies during family meetings and public holi- public holidays. This is a, a shot from, uh, Irony of Fate, uh, on New Year's Eve, uh, which, uh, uh, was kind of transmitted by Ukrainian TV channels as, you know, Home Alone Um, the next, uh, is, uh, um, mm, mm, the ne- the second agency where this imperial myths were created and popular T- uh, uh, very popular TV series and, films. Uh, so, um, mm, and here I would like to quote, uh, I would like to, to refer to the, uh, YouTube channel Zahin Kinomaniv by Vitaly Gordienko when he said that the same TV series and films where the same pl- TV stars were played mostly Russian, the same language was spoken, of course Russian. And he said, "It seems to us that all these people are ours, that this is our national product, and we understood the context of every joke about Basko because we know everyth- we knew everything about Basko." Basko is a Russian kind of star of 2000s, and that was transmitted to Ukrainian, uh, TVs, and now it's been deconstructed by Ukrainian YouTubers. And also, of course, Ukrainians were showed as, uh, uh, wi- with this sharovary culture, uh, uh, uh, m- with this kitsch of, uh, um, being stupid and uncivilized and wanting to join, uh, the civilized, uh, center. Yes, civilized, uh, Russian world. Here is an example of, uh, the third place where this imperial myths are being deconstructed by Ukrainian YouTube is the comedy show. But I will not stop, uh, in detail and go to the, uh, uh, final, uh, remarks. I want to recommend you the, mm, a film by... It's not the, the, the, m- my research, but the m- example of decolonial content, the film Kakaya Raznitsa, produced by Suspilne. Uh, and, uh, um, here i- the journalist Myroslava Barchuk says how this, uh, uh, how, how this U- Russian content created the Russian world, the one nation myth on Ukrainian, uh, on Ukrainians. So, mm, thank you very much, and, uh, yeah, this is a positive moment as this, uh, decolonial processes take place.

1 52:20

Thank you so much. We have a lot of, uh, questions too, and maybe, uh, more to come. Um, please, can you give a mic? here

Speaker 6 52:33

Thank you. For context, after four years of studying here, I started in CBS in Syracuse, New York, and the r- and the newspaper read, "Station hires second woman." Um, I thought for credibility I h- I u- needed to use every big word I knew, and six months into my career, my news director called me in and said, "Kathleen, half the people out there don't understand a word you're saying." So when you go to cover a story, ask yourself two questions: what does this mean to our audience, and why should they care? Those two questions have driven my communications ever since. I then, after leaving media, started a media training program. And just to share, we have launched this week on YouTube, You Know: Bridging Worlds, Sharing Cultures, By Kids for Kids, and it is a video podcast with Ukrainian students and American student teens. So please follow it under Kids Connect Ukraine. I will say if any of you can help, we ha- are amassing student journalists in Ukraine and in the United States to contribute to it, and we've just finished seven mobile journalism workshops in Ukraine in the last month. So we could use all of your help, both watching, following, sharing, and helping to cultivate young independent student journalists in Ukraine. Thank you.

1 54:05

Thank

Speaker 7 54:05

you We are still waiting for question Yeah, thank you so much for this just enormously, uh, informative and inspiring presentations.

Countering Propaganda

Speaker 7 54:15

My question, uh, for each, for all of the panelists is if you have ideas about how we can counter, uh, maybe this isn't a fair question, how we can counter transnational authoritarianism and propaganda, um, and especially on social media and being created and spread on social media. So it's especially, um, interesting to hear this like the decolonization on you. Like, that is very inspiring, like the taking, taking things apart. Um, but also just the history of Ukrainian media and how it's worked. So what I'm, I'm asking maybe unfairly, is what your ideas are countering that transnational authoritarian propaganda that matters around the world. It matters in the United States right now when we have an American president who's just parroting propaganda back, um, that's enormously damaging. What do we do is my question to you. I know it's not a fair question. Um, uh, and, uh, sort of the role of social media too, 'cause like we're talking about responsible journalism, that's a very important start, but people can have an unprecedented ability to make up news who aren't even journalists and spread it. Um, yeah. Thank you. Please.

Speaker 3 55:22

Uh, I may start? Yeah. Yes. Um, so very easy and very hard kind of, uh, question. Uh, but, uh, I, I would start from media literacy. This is the most important, and Ukraine is progressing very much in this sphere, for recent, uh, I guess, decade. Uh, right now, media literacy is being incorporated in Ukrainian's school curriculum, uh, starting from middle school, I think. But the, the, um, plan is to incorporate, uh, different kinds of media literacy s- concepts, uh, throughout all the school, uh, from, uh, kindergarten to the, uh, university. This is very important. This is really important in America, uh, where society is highly politicized and polar- polariza- pol... I'm sorry. Polarized, yes. Um, especially with this access to social media and, um, this, um, fight, from government against, uh, media, uh, and, uh, journalism in, in general. So, uh, educating public, educating people, uh, from a very young age is crucial, uh, 'cause they don't have that knowledge, uh, otherwise. So this is my, my comment.

Speaker 4 56:51

I can only add the same education, education, education we're talking about for many, many years in not only in disinformation a- against Ukraine, but generally speaking, our societies, uh, don't learn. They don't want to learn. They, they think that internet is a reality. Internet is everything. We have everyone there. Everyone can s- talk, everyone can be authority, authority in, uh... which is not real, uh, authority as we really know. So education, how to use new technologies, how to use media, how to protect, um, protect ourself from them because they are useful. They are for us, but we need to know how to use them in many, many different ways. And also teach, uh, about that, that it's important our, our, our vote is important, that we have to also go to elections, that we have to participate in our reality, so education in this kind of, uh, ways as well. Yeah, this is my comment.

Speaker 5 57:56

I may also add that, uh, the education and critical thinking, uh, probably by counteracting of if it's state policy, the media, the propaganda is for state policy. I mean, there's some NGOs, uh, initiative, some bottom-up initiatives to create and to educate people, uh, to show the alternative views. Yeah.

1 58:15

Okay. Uh, thank you. And to continue the question, um, I'm a lawyer and, uh, my professional background is criminal law. So, uh, as a lawyer, we always used to solve problem with criminal law, which quite often lead to more problem s- than, uh... But still, uh, I would like to, like to add some provocative component to the questions. Whether censorship or criminal prohibition for dissemination of certain kind of information could be solution, especially during emergency time. With trolls,

Speaker 4 58:55

you can't combat in this way. How? They're anonymous

Speaker 3 59:00

But with state propaganda, it's absolutely possible I would say. So

Speaker 4 59:07

depends in,

Speaker 3 59:08

with what? Yeah It depends really on the content. Yeah. Uh, I mean, European Union is trying to combat that, uh, and one of the laws they estab- they adopted pre, uh, recently is a digital, service act, uh, which controls different levels of, um, technology, technological corporations, accountability, transparency. So I think America should learn, uh, in a way from European Union how to combat disinformation, especially Russian propaganda. Uh, Ukraine has also example of banning Russian television, Russian, propagandistic channels. Uh, one of very interesting examples is the volunteering, um, um, v- volunteers and government, uh, cooperation in, uh, banning, uh, hostile content through Telegram, through social media, uh, which is real unprecedented, I think. Uh, one of the channels called Brama right now, it's, uh, very, uh, popular on Telegram, and, uh, another one, uh, is called Internet Vyska Ukraine, Internet Army of Ukraine, co- uh, coordinated by Ministry of, um, uh, d- digital... What is it? Digital transformation. So I think this is really important to, um, uh, regulate that legally.

1 1:00:34

So how to find the proper balance?

Speaker 3 1:00:38

This is a question to civil society too. I agree here that civil society organizations need to be, uh, a balance, uh, like those, uh, third, uh, media, government, and civic civil society, uh, to counterbalance, tri- triangulate the situation

Speaker 2 1:00:56

Olga And

Speaker 5 1:00:57

maybe I will add another example, this, uh, the, the, the, the language law also in Ukraine, and it's, uh, increasing... it increased Ukrainian content, uh, on YouTube, social media, and in, uh, mass media because I was always, uh, like of the opinion that if every single, I don't know, sa- fashion, um, journal will be in Ukrainian, this decolonial process, uh, goes, uh, properly. Yeah. Uh, for example, if nowadays I read in Ukrainian Vogue, uh, articles about Act Zhluky, about, uh, you know, Ukrainian national symbols, history, and so on and so forth, I couldn't imagine it couple of years ago. Yeah, because in the colonial glossary, there is a term of abrogation, also the trans- uh, refusing from the language of colonizer, and that's also the, the, the... this language is a, a tool for propaganda and manipulation.

Speaker 3 1:01:51

If, if I may add to that, that you just said, um, and Russians see that as a censorship of Russian language in Ukraine and add to this Russophobia myth, right? But I think that we as Ukrainians need to educate a global community that this is our reality, and we fight that, uh, colonial, um, history, and this is very important to us. It's... for, for other countries, that may seem as a censorship that we censor Russian language. But having all that, that I talked in my presentation and many other speakers talked in this conference, this is, um, must-have kind of, uh- This is our way to survive legislation. Yes, this is the way to survive. This is not a censorship.

Speaker 2 1:02:32

Exactly.

1 1:02:34

Yeah. And do we have any more question, please?

Speaker 2 1:02:39

About, um,

Speaker 4 1:02:40

uh, the notion of post-truth. Uh, we live for--

Speaker 2 1:02:45

nah, I'm sorry. Uh, um, we live, uh, in the period when, um, y-we know that a wo-- uh, the worldview develops, uh, in a sinusoidal way, and we live, uh, in the period when emotions, empathy, and, um, human, um, very human attitudes are, uh, estimated, maybe overestimated. And, um, this is actually, uh, how our society, um, looks at, uh, the world and social processes. So, uh, the problem of, uh, post-truth is that this is very timely now. So what are the ways how to distinguish this emotional part from, uh, the truth itself? What, uh, what is acceptable now?

1 1:03:37

I would like to take that question.

Speaker 3 1:03:39

If I, if I may start. Um- Please I think that I'm a media scholar with journalistic background, and I think that professional media is the way, uh, to calm, you know, to counter these emotions. Uh, we were talking today, uh, in the previous presentation of the panel, uh, about social media as one of the primary source of, uh, information and news right now for people, and not just news, just the, uh, view to the world through social media. Um, and professional media, they should use social media to deliver their, uh, professional information through social media. Unfortunately, um, not all the professional media know how to do that, use that, especially local media, especially very, uh, you know, uh, not that with bi-big budgets. And we know that the crisis in, uh, professional media, a huge crisis on a lo-local level with layouts of journalists. Like, in Ukraine, we have media outlets with three, five people working, uh, on the local level. That's very dangerous. So, um, yeah, I see that only like, uh, using that, um, for the good of, um, professionalism.

1 1:04:59

Okay, uh, we had one more question, please. Oh, always please. No problem. I'm sorry.

Speaker 8 1:05:06

Okay. Uh, thank you. First of all, great panel and a lot of provocative, thinking here. Um, I think one of the things that we struggle with here in the diaspora is the fact that, um, most Americans have very limited bandwidth when it comes to thinking about foreign policy of any kind. And so Putin understands this, and so he pounds only two messages: Ukrainians are all Nazis, and they're all corrupt. Boom. If I can convince most Americans... And now he has all these additional mouthpieces, Tucker Carlson, Moscow Marge, Rand Paul, you know, a whole slew o- of people that repeat this nonsense constantly. The question is, like, what can we do as a diaspora to counter that narrative, or do we develop our own narrative? For a long time, um, we made a choice in the diaspora to focus on the Holodomor as kind of our, um, strongest case for why, uh, colonization and imperial- Russian imperialism are a matter of life and death for Ukraine. The problem is that's in the '30s. There's genocide going on right now, and, um, the question is: how do we, uh, promote that understanding of genocide? One thing that, you know, Tim Snyder's talked about a lot is that, uh, the Russians have actually self-owned the fact that they were planning to commit genocide against Ukrainians. All of these people, Solovyov, you know, Simonyan, Peskov, I mean, just right down the line, there are all of these quotations for people saying, basically, "We're gonna destroy this country." We have not done a good job in, in the diaspora, and I think to some degree, Ukraine also has sort of lost its focus in, in pounding this idea that genocide is happening right now. The Russians have admitted that they're, that that's their plan, and here's how we define it. It, it kinda goes to the question of the definitions that, that you raised earlier. How do we define what constitutes genocide, and how do we pound that into the heads of, of people that, that really need to be making, making sounder decisions?

1 1:07:06

Okay, thank you. Just what could be done? Do you have any solution?

Speaker 5 1:07:12

I don't know, maybe I'm s- But that's, that's very interesting question, and I don't know if there is one answer on it. I think that that should be the complex of events, the complex of initiatives, uh, uh, mm, undertaken by, uh, by, by diaspora being, for instance, 'cause example, uh, if we are talking about media, being an expert in media, uh, like informing about it what's, uh, genocide or... 'cause I'm not a specialist of this issue. But, uh, it's expertise and education, what, uh, my colleague said, uh, media literacy and education. Yeah.

1 1:07:48

Thank you, and we have the last question, please. Please.

Speaker 9 1:07:55

It's the churches are a mechanism for mass communication

Speaker 4 1:08:00

Of course.

Speaker 9 1:08:01

And that's an issue that is missing from this panel. The problem-

Speaker 4 1:08:07

I had it in my presentation. I didn't reach that. The,

Speaker 9 1:08:10

the problem, the problem with Russia is that the Russian Orthodox Church has always been-

Speaker 4 1:08:14

Yeah

Speaker 9 1:08:14

ever since-

Speaker 4 1:08:16

Yeah. That's right

Speaker 9 1:08:16

a direct instrument-

Speaker 4 1:08:17

Yeah

Speaker 9 1:08:18

of the central state, and that is exceptionally unusual

Speaker 2 1:08:23

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 5 1:08:25

May I, uh, because, well, in my district, colonial research of YouTube, uh, the decolonization narration about the role of Orthodox, uh, Russian Orthodox Church also has, uh, uh... Well, I also research it, but because of the lack of time, I didn't present it. And yeah, totally, it is in Ukrainian media, this is a huge campaign on, uh, uh, explaining and, uh, sh- m- like, you know, mmm, showing the mechanism behind this whole propaganda. Yeah.

Speaker 4 1:08:52

It, this is unbelievable also in Russia that Orthodox Church is, is used not only as, like a way of communication, but, uh, the way to spread propaganda in a very strong way. That's why, uh, one of the, uh, messages that, uh, that it's important for Orthodox Church alliance with the state is that Russian have to protect, uh, Orthodox Russian outside Russia, so they need to protect their people. That's why, for example, Baltic country are, uh, so much afraid right now because they have, uh, m- pretty big percentage of, uh, citizens Orthodox Russians, and this is one of the ways that, that, that they use it. The church is so important. Maybe this is also the answer for the question- So- Your question, yeah. So maybe w- we could also use church here, I mean, in States to, to teach because we are always talking about, uh, education, to teach that the propaganda is that, and we can combat it in a certain way. And it's not true that it's only... Show examples that it's propaganda, and it's pr- the propaganda is, uh, last for many, many years. It's not only last three years. Yeah.

Speaker 5 1:10:07

And may I refer also to your, uh, question, uh, about how counteract this, uh, Russian propaganda that in Ukraine it's only corruption and so on. I, I think that demo- by demonstrating the, the good practices of realization of the project in Ukraine and of development of civil society because there are many, many initiatives, you know.

Speaker 3 1:10:28

And we have a minute. And if I may to add to the question about diaspora, I think it's really important to have, like, a dual, uh, view cooperating with the Americans here and having, uh, very fresh relations with Ukrainians there 'cause lots of cases then, uh, diaspora w- like just, uh, live in a bubble with, uh, within America, yeah? So this is really important to have both directions, uh, working

Speaker 4 1:10:55

together. But all of us, we are living in a bubble. Yes. This is the, the biggest problem also in, in our media sphere. All of us, we are living in a bubble, and we need to go outside. This is the most important part. This is very true.

1 1:11:08

Okay. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Closing Remarks

1 1:11:11

So we have, uh, discussed a lot of challenges, and as you know, to be aware of problem is a half of a solution, so the second part still coming Uh, and, as far as, uh, Nanovic, uh, folks are very serious about timing, I have to close our panel. Uh, and, uh, j- please join me, uh, in thanking our panelists today