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Letras Latinas, Part 24: A Conversation with Carmen Giménez

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Episode Topic: A Conversation with Emma Trelles

Join poet and Graywolf Press Executive Director Carmen Giménez for a profound exploration of modern “folklore”—from digital fandoms to the absurdity of conspiracy theories. Giménez reflects on her transition from founding Noemi Press to leading a major nonprofit, offering rare strategic insights into our fragile literary ecosystem’s future.

Featured Speakers:

  • Laura Villareal, University of Notre Dame
  • Carmen Giménez, Graywolf Press

Read this episode's recap over on the University of Notre Dame's open online learning community platform, ThinkND: https://go.nd.edu/38bd9a.

This podcast is a part of the ThinkND Series titled Letras Latinas.

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Setup and the Writer's Craft

Speaker 2

My name is Laura Villarreal. Today is April 10th, 2024, and this recording is taking place in McKenna Hall at the University of Notre Dame. This interview is for the Letras Latinas Oral History Project. I'm here with Carmen Giménez. Carmen, your last oral history project was in 2015, where you talked to Susie F. Garcia about your life and poetry. I was asked to focus on your work as a publisher for this follow-up. I do wanna take some time to talk about the two poetry collections you published since then, Cruel Futures in 2018 and Be Reporter in 2019. There are many things I admire about your work, but I find myself most drawn to how deftly your work probes gender roles through lenses of archetypes, like in Milk and Filth, Mythmaking and Goodbye Flicker, and even in your memoir, Bring Down the Little Birds, motherhood becomes a mirror, a mirror, microscope, and window to examine expectations. In your most recent books, there seems to be a departure from traditional folklore and a focus on a sort of absurdity, stranger-than-fiction reality we've been living in, which in itself is a, is folklore. I wonder, how do you see your work evolving and what's influencing you recently?

1

Um, yeah. I, I, I like how you Situate the reality that we live in as folklore, and part of what I imagined or what I see as an evolution when I was thinking about this question is, uh, being expansive of, like, what folklore is in the moment and that it evolves, um, over time and i- in medium. And what we live in-- I watched this video last night, and it was... I, I couldn't tell if it was a satire, and it was this woman talking about that the Earth was like a snow globe and that, um, we didn't go to the moon and, you know, that it, it's interesting also how mythologies and conspiracies and folklore are truths like people live it. Like, that I lo- in a way, I loved the idea of imagining that the world was a snow globe. It was, like, this beautiful image. But, um, to imagine that that's a truth and that people are living in that as a truth speaks very much to how story can be distorted to create harm and to create, create discord. And, and living in this political climate, you're aware of that. Um, and folklore, it, you know, when folklore, which is, like, the stories that we're told as oral tradition, became fairy tales, they were also distorted away from their original purpose of being to entertain, and they became these moralistic vehicles. And so what we receive as fairy tales are actually corrupted folk stories and oral traditions. And in the, in the very same way, they're, they're-- you take something like the world is a snow globe, which is a beautiful metaphor and a beautiful image to be distorted as, and it is because we have been lied to. It's something that's per- perpetuated as harm, in many ways has the same kind of evolutionary life as, um, what we receive as a fairy tale. And so to see that become more and more ubiquitous, um, it definitely was affecting to me. Uh, and so I think it was a combination of, of wanting to move into the moment and being aware of how this moment is deploying storytelling and invention and fabrication, uh, to create discord.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Um, I was watching a documentary, and they said that all conspiracy theories are based on some element of truth and then elaborated from there. You have a poem about, um, the flat Earth conspiracy, which is, uh, you, you know, um, you describe it as being pretty, you know, kind of like wholesome, like, at its core. Like, it's just people who believe in the flat Earth. Um, but do you feel like your recent work is gonna still engage with that? I know you've been writing some, some new poems. I think you described them at the panel at AWP as being a little bit more domestic.

1

Yeah, I, I will always, I, I will always be engaging with s- some sense of folklore, some sense of, like, fantasy and illusion. That's, it, it preoccupies me, and I, I, I believe we live so much in illusion. There- one of the tropes that I remember in the novel Far- Fahrenheit 451, which I haven't read in a really long time, so I might be misremembering it- which is also a valid experience- Yeah of it, was that his wife, Mildred, would wa- would watch TV, and TV was basically, like, it was VR w- in her living room.

Speaker 2

Mm.

1

And in a way, that stayed with me. I mean, the, the, the burning of books was really potent, but that stayed with me more than a lot of the other things in the novel because- Yeah it was so much about how we live engrossed in fantasy and fiction, and how that keeps us from connecting with other people, which was part of their estrangement in their marriage. Um, so we can't necessarily escape, um, there are good things about it. Fantasy, it is a gift. It, it- Yeah you know. But when it causes us to be estranged from human connection and from human compassion, that's dangerous, but that's exactly the kind of climate that we live in, and, uh, we can't escape that. It's, it's such a part of our effective experience that I, I'll always be writing about that. The same time, I've not, um, written novels, or novels, I've not written poems that are very much, um, uh, nostalgic and historic and biographical in- Mm-hmm I, I think it's both subject matter, but also in the style of the sentences which are longer and expository and more discursive. And so it's as much an experiment in form and syntax as it is in subject matter.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Oh, I love that answer. Um, I spent some time reading through all of your books, but I also spent some time reading your essays that are online and your book reviews, which I really enjoyed. Um, are you working on any essays at the moment? Do you see yourself as writing more prose in the future, more memoir or more maybe fiction?

1

I'm, so I just wrote an essay, uh, that I presented at Bennington College that was, um, it was called And Suddenly I Realized, and essentially the, the, um, the, um- The subject is that poetry is not therapy, but it's also not not therapy. Mm. So it's about poetry and catharsis. I like actually writing more about poetry than, than other subjects. I, I, I... Those essays are less successful for me. But I've been writing, um, fiction-

Speaker 2

Ooh

1

uh, which has been excited and, and exciting, and in many ways the fiction is a lot, is a place in which I'm engaging a lot with this idea of fantasy and pop culture, and that's actually where a lot of that... Maybe that's where that work is being stored right now. So I'm writing about fandom and-

Speaker 2

Oh, that's cool

1

um, living on the internet.

Speaker 2

Like the fanfic and-

1

Yeah. So-

Speaker 2

Like the forums and things like that.

1

Yeah

Speaker 2

those niche places on the internet.

1

So this novel is about a woman who is, um, recovering from a traumatic brain injury and estranged from her teen daughter, who becomes preoccupied with Larry Stylinson. I don't know if you're familiar.

Speaker 2

I don't. Who's that?

1

It's, um, um, Harry Styles and- Oh Louis Tomlinson. It's their relationship. It's their- Their imagined relationship.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

1

And so there's this whole fandom around it. And so she, like, becomes obsessed with it.

Speaker 2

Oh, that's so interesting. I saw something recently. I think in fanfic they call it, like, shipping.

1

Yes. People- Total shipping. Yeah. It's totally shipping. It's interesting because it's the f- the evidence is based on such fleeting glances and touches. And to me, there's just, even though I'm sure it doesn't feel great to the people that it's happening to, and I- Yeah I sympathize with that. I do think there's something really human about our desire to understand that. Yeah. There's something very l- and, and I think many fans are very loving and protective of them, and this idea of their, their love and their nascent love and their queer- Mm connection. So I, that's what fascinates me about that fandom, is, um, the tenderness and the fact that, that there is nothing that actually happens between them.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

1

Um, and that absence is what gives it potency.

Speaker 2

Oh, I love that. Oh, that's so exciting. I can't wait to read it in the

1

future. I have

Speaker 2

to finish it. I have to finish it, so. You do have to finish it. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Um, I think the fans will definitely love it. I hope so. The fan

1

fiction writers. I mean, it is about a middle-aged lady, so it's not about their concerns.

Speaker 2

I mean-

1

So we'll see. We'll see.

Speaker 2

But fan fic has been around for so long. It has. I mean, since, like, the beginning of the internet.

1

Well, and actually- You know? since the beginning of time. I mean, isn't an e- isn't an epic poem or an ode a, a fan fic, you know? That's

Speaker 2

true. That's true. Yeah. Um, okay.

Founding Noemi Press

Speaker 2

Let's, let's talk a little bit about your life as a publisher. You were one of the founders of Noemi Press, where you served as the publisher for 20 years. Could you tell us about Noemi's origin story? How did it all start for you?

1

Yeah. I just got to tell this story, um, in, uh, Joyelle's class, so it's fresh in my mind. When I, I went to Iowa for graduate school and became very aware of I mean, having come from the Bay Area, I, I, I knew it a little bit, but just the print culture, chapbooks- Mm mimeographs, the, the mimeo revolution, all of the, you know, going back to, you know, the 19th century of the ways in which paper ephemera and, um, magazines and all of that w- all of those elements were so key into expanding the footprint of an aesthetic or of an artistic movement.

Speaker 2

Mm.

1

Um, you know, B- Black Mountain, uh, you know, Grove, a- all of these, uh, um, important, uh, you know, Virginia Woolf, all of these important writers and movements. Modernism was so, like, catalyzed by, um, publication.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

1

And when I went to, um, back to San Francis- I moved, uh, to San Francisco and I went, there was a, I think it was called New College. I think it was called the New College. It closed down. Great poets went there, Juan Buen and, and, um, and Giovanni Singleton, among many others. They had a h- and I mean, in retrospect, I don't, I mean, obviously they couldn't afford it now. This giant chapbook store.

Speaker 2

Oh, wow.

1

It was crazy. It was on Valencia and, like, 17th, and it was just filled with chapbooks and books and handmade books. And I would just go in there and I'd say, like, "People are making these by hand." Like, I just And I would buy tons. I still have so many of them. Uh, and I was so fascinated, and I wanted to do it. And then, you know, it was just always something in the back of my mind. And then a couple of friends of mine bought a Vandercook press, a, a letter press, and I just really wanted to play with it. And so I said, "Oh, I'm starting a chapbook press." And so y- I wasn't. I- You know,

Speaker 2

like, I just wanted I mean, I- Just needed

1

it. But I did. Yeah. I, I was like And so I got a friend. I made a chapbook for his book, and then that, like And I was like, "Oh, that was fun. I like doing that. I wanna do that again." And I did it again and again and again and again. Um, and then it was like, oh, I, I actually have a press now. Like, this is a real thing, and people are like- Yeah "Oh," you know, um, "we've seen your chapbooks." And it, it kind of grew from there. I moved to New Mexico and, um, with Evan Lavender Smith, uh, kind of grew the, the press. Um, and we did the first full-length book in 2009. Uh, and, you know, Susie joined the staff. I- Yeah I mean, Rosa Vidal was early on the staff, J. Michael Martinez. And part of our, I think, our mission really was it was a time in which, you know, it was the late '90s, early aughts in which there were very few BIPOC writers who had major visibility.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

1

And there were even fewer who were doing something that resisted, you know, n- y- y- r- e- experimental, for lack of a better word. I d- you know, I d- I think that that word is kind of It's, it's less interesting as it was when it you know, in, in 2002. And I was w- I wanted to create a space with the people that I was working with in which that work was acknowledged, um, but it didn't silo us as, like, a, you know, the press that publishes people of color. But it was, like, the press that publishes cool, weird-

Speaker 2

Yeah

1

stuff.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

1

And, um, and we published all s- sorts of people. It w- you know, and that's really how it came together, and it was so driven, um, by the passion of all of the folks. Sarah Dzemski b- you know, was our managing editor, is just such a genius at running a press. And doing it by, you know, credit cards at first and, you know, by the skin of our teeth, um, later, and, and, you know, it's a press that is able to sustain itself on the work of volunteers and, um, with, you know, with the sales of the books that we have. Uh, or that they have because I am no longer part of the press. Uh, and it's just been such a joy of being that intimately connected to the life of a book and the trajectory of a book that's been such a, you know, that's been the gift of it, and then also the close collaboration with some really fantastic people, uh, some poets that, you know, we've, we've come to love and admire and who've, you know- Yeah who are part of our community. Like, I think that that's, um, that's really what's been important about Noemi is that it is a home. It's a connection. It's a com- community. And so, um, I'm excited about the fact that I was able to be a part of that.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Um, I think, you know, I've loved so many books published by Noemi. The books risk everything in pursuit of innovation and furthering the bounds of poetic art. Um, I've heard a number of Noemi authors attribute their freedom to innovate and take risks from encouragement you gave them. Um, actually heard that at our last event in Chicago, Jasmine Mendez. Um, risk can be rewarding or it could totally fail. As an editor and publisher, how do you cultivate an environment of successful innovation? How do you constantly draw out the best of your writers?

1

Well, one thing I learned over time as an editor, and I think as a practitioner too, is that we work to a, a limit of our gifts, but not to the limit of our gift.

Speaker 2

Mm.

1

And so part of what an editor does is say, "You are- you're- got here, I know you can get here."

Speaker 2

Mm.

1

And these are Like, I see this bubbling under the surface. Let's- like, let's bring it out, you know?

Speaker 2

Yeah.

1

Uh, and that really, at the end of the day, all you're doing is just calling attention to the things that they're afraid of or that, th- they don't see. And I say they. Me too, as a writer, as an e- like in my own work, I'm always asking, "What are you afraid of? What are you playing with that you could really amplify?" So that's really been the practice, and also just being a really careful listener-

Speaker 2

Mm

1

to people, um, when people are talking about their work. And so one step of our editorial process, and, and really the editorial process I take with any book, is just having, like, a really long conversation about the book, about how it came to be, about what the p- poet or the writer wants the book to be. Um, what are the poems that are meaningful, or what are the sections or the essays that, you know What is the biggest surprise? What do you, what do you wanna learn about yourself as an artist? That's a first step of editing any book, and you just kind of, like, hear things that folks say, and you're like, "That's fantastic. It's not in the book, but let's ma- let's find how it can be in the book." And so the risk is, it- it's what feels like risk, I think, is, like, mining these things that live in the subterranean of any kind of project and, and then challenging people. Like, you, uh, you tried this, and you're, you know, but, like, you're afraid of this. Let's, so let's jump in together too- Yeah because I think when you're editing, it's a collaborative process. You're walking alongside someone as they ask questions of their craft and as they a- ask questions of themselves. I think poetry's such an intimate interior work, and it's, and that's what this paper is about. It's like, it's not therapy, but it's catharsis. Mm. And the, if we feel catharsis when we read a poem, it's because the poet is notating an experience of their own catharsis, and it's very hard to get to that point.

Speaker 2

Mm.

1

So that's also what you do, is you kind of push someone into the deep end of, of, you know, the negative capability- in their poem, and then, you know, b- stand b- stand at the side so they know that you're there to help them out.

Speaker 2

Oh, that's amazing. I feel like that kind of, um, editorship is rare. So, oh, God, you said so many things I'm gonna carry with me.

Small-Press Economics: Distribution and AI

Speaker 2

Um- Y- you know, small presses, they're critical to our literary ecosystem 'cause they expand what's being published. Um, a lot of traditional publishers won't, won't take a risk on some books. But it's, it also leaves presses in a precarious position due to lack of resources. One recent case is the abrupt closure of small press distributor who has left their presses without recourse and placed them in dire financial position. How have you navigated the precarity of maintaining a small press?

1

Well, uh, I mean, I'm I'm standing by and supporting Noemi however I can in, during this time. And, and, um, it's, it's, it's a tragedy that, um, small press distribution, um, essentially collapsed.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

1

It speaks to the precarity of the infrastructure that we build around- Yeah you know, and how we all have to be stewards of it. Um, and that there is the less glamorous work of distribution that people are only beginning to see. Um, uh, I think it, we were so reliant on small press, um, distri- distribution in a way because the distribution model in the last 20 years has gotten more and more, just as there's a big five for commercial publishers, there's also, you know, like a big three or big four for distribution, which was very exploitative in part because of Amazon and other, you know, of, of those huge, um, corporate conglomerations of booksellers. So w- we all have to do the less glamorous part of publishing. Distribution is one of them. But, you know, I, I, I was just talking about this with Ada and Gioia last night, that it's not the sexy aspect of it. You know, we don't n- Yeah you know, artists don't like to be behind the scenes, and there's not a huge financial incentive to distributing micro presses. It really is a kind of labor of love or an investment in, um, in the community. So I, I think it's a combination of, uh, of also holding the community accountable for stepping up and being able to s- you know, to, to participate in solutions-

Speaker 2

Yeah

1

towards the question of, of distribution. And at the same time, I think returning to that idea of like, we have to support small presses by buying books from small presses, that we all, like, that is actually participating in the ecosystem too, um, is buying them directly from the website or, you know, or bookshop.org, or when it was, when SPD, um, did exist, instead of going to Amazon, going to SPD and ordering them from there first is like, it, all of this is driven by money. Yeah. Uh, and presses have to make money in order to, to sustain themselves. And we have money. It might not be very much, but we can participate by injecting our money, by making contributions to nonprofit presses. Um, so there are lots of ways of being agents of change in that. I do think that it's terribly tragic because I suspect that one outcome is that there are certain back lists that are going to Be decimated by this, um, or that books are going to go out of print because the cost of keeping them in print, um, which was manageable through SPD, will be less manageable with the alternatives there are, um, for distribution now. And that's going- we're gonna lose a lot of really important books in that regard.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Um, I don't know much about distribution, but there's- I've been reading online about the, the big three. Do they have certain requirements for how many books you need to sell, or what are, what are some of the things that small presses have to navigate with distribution?

1

It's, it's definitely a scale thing. It's how they deal with returns. Um- Mm and it's also how much they take off, you know, if Because, you know, a c- big commercial press or, can say, "Oh, we're gonna send you 1,500 books- Yeah uh, and there's a lot more money to be made than we're gonna send you 100 books." Um, right? It's the same amount of labor, but it's, the scale is much higher. You're gonna get a lot more as a distributor from 1,500 books. Um, and then if you print 1,500 books, it's ch- it's a cheaper per unit cost than if you print- Yeah 100. Um, and so returns, which are books that a bookstore buys and they don't wanna buy-

Speaker 2

Hmm

1

you know, that back and forth, that costs money. Um, and sometimes they get pulped. Like they say, well, w- you know, some presses, they just destroy them 'cause it's cheaper than keeping them. But small presses can't afford to If th- you're printing 100 and they're $6 a piece, and you pulp, you know, um, 50 of them-

Speaker 2

Yeah

1

that's $300. If your print run is 100, your print run is normally 100, that's half a print run for the next book. So, um, e- economically, it's not actually a very good model for the type of presses that were sustained by SPD.

Speaker 2

Mm. Um, you mentioned some books going out of print. Do you feel like, um, having books put up digitally is a way to preserve them, or do you think that- I

1

think yes

Speaker 2

you know, the life of a book should be as many books as there are?

1

I, I, I think that, uh, presses will find different solutions. I do think e-books are a, a good solution. I think the challenge with e-books is now those are getting fed into E- AI.

Speaker 2

Oh, God, yes.

1

Um, so I think that some people might be loathe to, to, to venture into that world. Um, and it is ex- you know, it's not It's not like an easy thing to make a book digital, and it's also not an easy, um, job to get it into the world, to publicize it that it exists. But I think at the end of the day, all ecosystems c- you know, find, stabilize and find new ways of existing. I just think it's gonna be a very different landscape, and I think we all just have to catalyze as a community to, to support the presses that are really struggling or the p- presses that might not survive in all kinds of different ways, including creating publishing collectives of s- much smaller presses to support the kind of work, um, that they're doing.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Um, you mentioned AI. Are there any concerns that you have as a publisher or an editor surrounding AI or anything that you're worried about for the future?

1

Um, I... Not yet. I, I mean, I've used AI, like, to generate out, out of just curiosity, and it's not sop- it's not super sophisticated. Um, and I know writers who use AI to generate and build off of- Mm and that, that's collage. You know? I mean- Yeah it's, it's not, it's not actually new. Um, what- What's- and I also wonder about work, you know, we published a book, uh, tra- uh, Noemi published a book called Travesty Generator that was- Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2

I love

1

that book you know, that's a book, you know, that's a book that engages with AI. Mm-hmm. It's, you know, so it's not like we can pretend that people aren't using it or say that it's not art. Um, I think we have to adapt to it. I f- outside of publishing, I worry about it, you know, um, how it's going to affect the job market. But as an artist, I, I just see it as, as a tool- Hmm that people can use. Uh, and if people are using it to, you know, like students are using it to write poems and turning in, I, you know-

Speaker 2

Yeah

1

that's on them. Like, really? That's what you're gonna do? Like, okay, well, th- then do that. Like- Yeah that's fine. Um, I, I think it's this new thing. It will be more sophisticated. Maybe there will be robots who rebel and, but I don't think I'm gonna be alive for that, so.

Speaker 2

You won't be around for the robot rebellion. I won't be,

1

I

Speaker 2

won't be around for

1

the robot rebellion.

Speaker 2

Oh. I mean, there's just, like, so many movies and things that warn us about AI. Uh, I've heard that recently some publishers are using AI for their book covers. Um, does Graywolf still use artists and-

1

Yeah, yeah book designers?

Speaker 2

I,

1

I have a friend who tried to, um, contribute a cover made with AI and was turned down-

Speaker 2

Mm

1

because of copyright issues. Yeah. So I don't know how many major presses are doing it. Um- Yeah but we, yeah, we work- at Graywolf works with book designers. So does Noemi. They still work with book designers. Yeah.

Speaker 2

Okay, cool.

Why Graywolf Now

Speaker 2

Um, in, sorry to quote you, but in your press release announcing that you'd be executive director of Grayro- Graywolf, you said, "I hope that we will build a legacy while continuing to evolve, taking risks, engaging directly with the current moment, and serving our local, national, and international community of readers and writers." That statement feels in line with everything that makes Noemi an incredible press. Your second anniversary as the ED at Graywolf is coming up in August. What made you decide to move to Graywolf? How would you characterize your time at Graywolf thus far? And what are your hopes as you lead the press into the future?

1

Yeah, I, I, that's such a, um, complex question because some of it is very, not, not personal that I don't wanna say it- Hmm but it's, you know, it was a moment in which, you know, I was 50 or 51, I guess, and just wondering like, "Am I really gonna do this for the rest of my life?" What, uh, you know, what... Fantasizing like, what if I just try to get an internship doing something I've never done? You know? Yeah. It was just a moment where I was like, I love this. I've been doing this for a long time, and how it's not changed at the rate of my curiosity about being in the world- Hmm and new things that I like to learn about. And so when the opportunity came up, it was just at the right moment in which I thought, "I don't know how to do half of these things in this job description," um, or I know how to do them, but not at that scale. And I also have all of these things that I learned from doing Noemi that I would love to see w- you know, at that scale. Yeah. So that really was a motivating factor, and then also understanding that it was really significant for a queer BIPOC woman to step into that kind of role because-

Speaker 2

Mm-hmm

1

w- there aren't many of us in that type of role. And to be able to be in conversation with really brilliant editors, at the end of the day, my role at Graywolf is gilding the lily, right? Like, you know, like I'm just building off of what's, what was, you know, what Fiona McCrae created before me and what the brilliant editors, you know, who work at N- uh, at Graywolf do. Um, but also aware that Graywolf has a kind of cultural capital that can be really valuable to folks who might not normally have access to because of their legibility and understanding that Graywolf s- the, the folks at Graywolf saw that I had an awareness of authors and, and artists that might not have the legibility that they're aware of. Um, I- that was really important too, to be able to nap- to use that cultural capital to, to widen the field to people who might not normally get, um, published, which is what Noemi also did.

Inside Graywolf: Scaling and Acquiring

Speaker 2

Yeah. Um, so far, what has been, I guess, like the most exciting thing that you've learned or skill that you've honed while at Graywolf?

1

Well, two things. One of them is the sca- the scalability of the, the things that I learned at Noemi, that it was actually like, oh, just add a bunch of zeros or just add- You know what I mean? Like- Yeah a lot of it is stuff like, yeah, that's at a micro level and, and it's not that different when you're doing it on a, on a larger scale. Um- But I, but at the same time, there are all of these pieces of publishing that having that k- that the luxury of a larger budget and a larger staff allow you to bring to bear to how a book goes into the world, how it gets attention, how it gets success. Uh, but additionally, it's Graywolf is a nonprofit, so I, I've learned a great deal about how to tell the story of a nonprofit and how to, to, to raise money and to raise awareness of the work that, um, a significant publisher like Graywolf does. And, uh, there's a, a, you know, there's an evangelical quality to fundraising. It's, it's, um, a, you know, as a friend said, it's a very easy story to tell and get people excited about. But it definitely is a major part of my job, and that was I was aware of it. I didn't- Mm I think just how it informs every aspect of what I do in my role, you know, has is, is still something that I'm wrapping my mind around. I love it. Um, it's not a, it's not an editorial position. Um- Yeah I, I d- do lots of editorial work, but that's a minor thread in my role. And so that was- Mm-hmm definitely something that I was adapting to.

Speaker 2

Oh, I see. Yeah. I could imagine, um, especially since it's such a It's like a larger of the small presses.

1

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

Speaker 2

Um, what, what's the typical process of Graywolf seeking out authors? I know sometimes it's open for submissions, but how do you go about that? Or what's, what's the typical day at Graywolf look like?

1

So we have, uh, you know, a prose team and, um, and poetry. Poetry comes to us, you know, in lots of different ways. Um, folks recommend manuscripts. We meet someone or we read something, we're interested in the work. Um, or people just send the work in. Prose, because of the scale- Hmm of, of reading, you know, reading a novel takes a long time, we get Almost all of the prose that we get, except for the contests or the prizes that we offer, are through agents, are agented.

Speaker 2

Mm.

1

Um, and they're agented. We, you know, we publish a lot of translations, so they're agented from all around the world. We do w- seek out work. I, you know, I definitely when I came to Graywolf, I, there were, I had my list of people that I wanted to ask work from, and, and I immediately did that and, and sought some writers out. Um, so we do try to cast a wide net. We're confined by the work that our staff can do. Yeah. If we could read 5,000 manuscripts- we would read 5,000 manuscripts, but we don't have the time-

Speaker 2

Hmm

1

because we're editing books and we're acquiring and we're, you know, doing all sorts of, like- helping the marketing machine move along. So again, an editorial job is the acquisitions part is a s- s- is a certain percentage, and we just don't have the bandwidth to, to really read beyond that. And I think that's a challenge because when you're trying to be open and inclusive, you are limited by the resources.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

1

And so we're just trying to be innovative about how we are able to open ourselves while also managing workload and- Mm all, you know, respecting the work-life balance of the staff. I mean, if I could say, like, "Let's read a th- 1,000 extra manuscripts," that would be on top of everyone else, e- everything else that folks are doing.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

1

So it is about being strategic. You learn also how to evaluate things pretty quickly. Um, but since I was coming in kind of fresh, and I didn't at, when I started, have a bunch of stuff coming to me, you know, as submissions, now I have a lot more, I was able to have the luxury of, like, seeking stuff out and calling this poet and saying, "I love your work. Will you send me a manuscript?" And- Yeah um, that's now I think my job is big enough where I, I don't have necessarily the time or the luxury, but I, I continue to do it as much as possible. And if I- I'll ask Susie, "Who should I be reading?" I'll ask Anthony- Yeah "Who should I be reading?" All, all the people around me- Mm to kind of be scouting for me as well.

Speaker 2

Oh, that's cool. Um, I guess to get a perspective, how big is the staff at Noemi? How big is the staff at Graywolf?

1

So the staff at Noemi is about five people- Mm and then there are interns who are at Virginia Tech. Mm-hmm. Um, and then the staff at Graywolf is 18 people.

Speaker 2

So they're both tiny.

1

They're both tiny-

Speaker 2

They're both tiny and-

1

in comparison to- a ton

Speaker 2

of work

1

right, right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is a lot of work.

Speaker 2

Oh, wow. Um, oh gosh, only 18 people at Graywolf. It's such- Like thinking how would you manage to split thousands of submissions, it's impossible.

1

It's, yeah, it's challenging It's just impossible Yeah. But we, you know, we manage it. A- again, I think you just W- I thought, "Oh, it's gonna be hard to," you know When I started at Graywolf I, I thought, "Oh, like they're getting amazing work," and But there is, and you know- Yeah there's gonna be an embarrassment of riches. It, in a way it is, but in a way it has to strike so many levels of- Yeah your attention, and it has to tick so many kinds of I mean, I, I say boxes, tick boxes a- as if there's a thing. But like- Mm it's an instinctive set of boxes that the, the, in a way the work itself gives you- Yeah. Mm-hmm and its relation to other things. I think one thing that we talk about at Graywolf is that the book needs Graywolf, right? Like it, it, it's not, like it needs that boost because- Mm it's a weird enough book, or it's asking questions that haven't been asked, or formally it's challenging. That, like that, that kind of the cultural capital of Graywolf will, people will say, "Well, it's a Graywolf book. I want- I'm curious now. I wanna, I wanna spend time with it and understand it and enter it." Uh, and we're also I think huge, like at the language level there has to be a kind of just, um A kind of virtuosity, um, because it's not the story, it's not the subject matter, it's how it, you know, it's how it's told. Like, the great storytellers are also great craftspeople, and that's really what we're looking for too, is just something that's beautifully made or that you can see has the potential of really being refined and be- you know, end up- Yeah in really beautiful shape.

Speaker 2

Oh, that's, that's really interesting. So you're kind of still doing the thing that you were doing at Noemi where you're finding, like, the gold in that person's work and still amplifying it. Um, how many books does Graywolf publish typically in a year?

1

Uh, Graywolf publishes about 30- Wow books a year. 30 to I mean, I think the number is about- Mm-hmm 33, and it's about, um, you know, a third fiction, a third nonfiction, a, you know, and then a third poetry. In that we have, um, translations as well, and we have our returning authors, and so, you know, what ends up be- you know, like, so in one year we might acquire seven new titles of And then we have contests, so we have the Academy of American Poets, we have the Cavafy Conan Prize, we have the fiction pri- the Africa Fiction Prize, and then we have the, the nonfiction prize. So w- you know, we actually only acquire in a year, you know, 15 new titles. We are s- 17- Yeah or 18 new titles with returning authors and all of these other prizes. It's not for, you know, from 2,000 manuscripts that we're reading that year. Um, and so it is a very, very tiny fraction. Mm. So the, the discernment that you have to have in order to acquire books is so fine and so specific. Uh, so that idea of, like, an embarrassment of riches, it's a yes and it's a no because it, it has to hit in this particular way-

Speaker 2

Yeah um,

1

that you can't stop thinking about it, and you're like, "Yes, I, I'm obsessed."

Speaker 2

Yeah.

1

Um, and that, but, you know, that doesn't happen even when, with published books- Mm-hmm like, where you're like, "Oh." You know, you read a book and you're like, "This is good. That was really good." And then you, "Oh, no, that was really good. That was And then you're like, "Oh, my God, I can't stop thinking about this book. I wish I could go back in time-" and not have read it and then read it again with that freshness." Like, that's,

Advice for New Publishers

1

that happens, and you're like, "That's the book I want."

Speaker 2

Yeah. I was, I was actually thinking about that on the plane. I was like, I haven't read a book in a while that made me feel that way.

1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Um- So I guess, you know, we have a, a number of new presses popping up all the time, and we also see them close fairly often as well. What advice would you give those publishers, the editors for running a successful and sustainable press?

1

I, I suggest getting trained in finance. Um, it's a labor of love, but you do have to learn, like it's a business. Yeah. I, I met a photographer once who said, um He asked me what my kids were into, and I said, "My son wants to be an artist." And he said, "Tell him to get a, a business degree, because you can learn a lot about making art, you know, in lots of different ways. You can't learn how to run a business on your own." Uh, and that was very, like wise advice. So I think at the end of the day, you're creating a business and you can't... Like, your passion is one element. I think the great gift that came, um, to Noemi's way is the folks like Crystal Langwell and Sarah Gemski, who are just brilliant at managing this aspect of, again, the part of, the shadowy part of, of publishing that is so, so important- Mm-hmm that doesn't end up like on the front end where people are thinking about it. It's like it's the machine, it's the, the clock element of it where you don't hear it ticking, but it- Yeah it's all of those pieces. That's what sustains a press. The reason presses go under is that, that, that stuff isn't attended to. And I think too, sometimes, um, presses and any bus- any business really scales up too quickly- Mm.

Speaker 2

Mm-hmm

1

and isn't able to sustain that momentum, and so scaling backwards, it's, it's actually very easy to scale up. Mm-hmm. It's much harder to scale down. Um, and when in publishing you are always living a year or two in the future. Like I c- I'm not thinking about the... I, I'm, of course, I'm aware of the books that are out today. I'm living the books that are coming out next year and the year after that. That's actually where I, I live. And so if you grow too big, um, that means you're doing a lot of- Mm-hmm this ahead work and you're leaving a lot of this, the front work, like the books that are out now behind. Um, and so I think like that's being really deliberate about how you scale up and, um, having good business acumen or getting someone who has good bus- business acumen is really key.

Speaker 2

Oh, for sure. Um, it sounds like you have to be kind of a time traveler in publishing.

1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Um- What, I guess, you mentioned that your son wants to be an artist. What kind of art is he interested in?

1

He, um, is Well, he's, he's so good at everything that he does. He can draw. He's a musician. He's just like a polymath at art. But, um, he works He's a, a sophomore at Virginia Tech, and he works in creative technology. So it's like CGI and- Mm uh, I don't even know what, drafting with computer. I mean- this is so like beyond my, um He was over the other day, and he was tracing a video, like s- um, shot by shot to do, I think it was called a radiograph, like the A-ha video. And it was just like scr- you know- Yeah it's super like fine detail. So it's like that kind of stuff for, for film and, and, um, and art. So I, it's just so like interesting to me.

Speaker 2

You mentioned that, and I thought about your poem Raver- Ravers Having Babies. Yes. And I was like, "You kind of got your wish."

1

I did. I did get my wish. I did. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's true. Like, yeah, they don't speak French, but- they're creative.

Speaker 2

But they're creative, yeah. They're

1

creative, yeah.

Work, Family, and Closing

Speaker 2

Um, I guess like one final question. How do you balance your personal life with the business of writing and also being a writer yourself? You're so prolific, so.

1

Yeah, I don't think suc- I mean, I, I think not successfully. I, I- No? It would be a myth to say that you can be as busy and over-committed and You know what I mean? Like-

Speaker 2

Mm

1

you, one, I, you make sacrifices. I think you make choices. There was this movie that I saw when I was very young. It was called, oh- It was Judy Davis, and it was set in, like, the 19th century or maybe the early 20th century. I can't remember. But what I remember about that film, what stayed with me, and, uh, and I think it also reminds me of, of e- you know, a book that we've all read, Little Women, which ended in a way that I s- was surprised, is that if you are a woman, you make a choice.

Speaker 2

Mm.

1

And in many ways, the choice that was made in, like, the Judy Davis was, like, either I have a family or I'm an artist. And it's not like that binary... It's not like magically that binary went away. It's just that women have had to say, "I'm gonna do both, and it's going to have a cost." Um, and so I think that that's really the difficult part, is I can't imagine not having had this path at the same time, and I think that's what Ravers Having Babies in a way is about. It's like I've had to really rely on my community and, um, and also on my children's resilience-

Speaker 2

Mm

1

you know, to, to be able to... I mean, they have catalyzed their ability to believe in me, um, and believe what I'm doing is important, has been, you know, has been liberatory. But I definitely, um, don't have the kind of, like, le- leisure life or, you know, social life that I, that I wish that I could have. Sometimes I wish that I could have, but other times I'm like, "This is... I chose this path- Mm and I got, have had to do-- I've gotten to do... I'm talking to you. I've been able to do all of these amazing things.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

1

And I'm here, and I love where I am in this moment. And even I think when you look back and you, with regret, whatever you change changes everything.

Speaker 2

Mm.

1

And so I think, like, I love my present and my past with all of its challenges and all of the sacrifices. It's still how I got here, so I wouldn't change anything at the same time that I, you know, I think this isn't ideal. Uh, you know? This isn't the most ideal, healthy life, um, because it is very challenging, and you do have to make sacrifices, and you, and you make mistakes. Um, and but it is what it is, you know?

Speaker 2

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for having this conversation with me.

1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Really enjoyed it. My pleasure.

1

Yeah. Thank you.