The ThinkND Podcast
The ThinkND Podcast
Letras Latinas, Part 25: A Conversation with Emma Trelles
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Episode Topic: A Conversation with Emma Trelles
From Miami’s neon car culture to Santa Barbara’s mountain dreams, Poet Laureate Emma Trelles explores the “bones-deep” honesty of her work, Courage and the Clock. Discover her transition from journalist to literary activist, the strategic necessity of paying artists, and her powerful rejection of perfectionism in this essential interview.
Featured Speakers:
- Cloud Cardona, Letras Latinas
- Emma Trelles, poet
Read this episode's recap over on the University of Notre Dame's open online learning community platform, ThinkND: https://go.nd.edu/f2b708.
This podcast is a part of the ThinkND Series titled Letras Latinas.
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Setup and the Craft of Writing
1Hello, my name is Cloud Delfina Cardona, and I'm here with Emma Trelles in McKenna Hall. Um, the date is October 16th, and we are here at the University of Notre Dame. Um, this is our second interview for the oral history project, um, and I'm excited to dig into your new collection and talk about your, um, literary activism and community work. Um-
Speaker 2Thanks for having me, Cloud.
1Yeah, of course.
Speaker 2And nice to meet you.
1Yes, nice to meet you too.
Speaker 2Yeah.
1Um, so I wanna start with your newest collection, um, and kind of backtrack from there. Um, so your newest collection, The Courage and the Clock, um, could you talk about what the process was like for you writing this collection and kind of the build-up to its release?
Speaker 2Sure. Um, Courage and the Clock, um, I wrote the title poem of the collection. It was, uh, the first poem I wrote after Tropicalia was published. Uh, so I've been working on that book for a very long time because, as you know, Tropicalia was published, you know, 13 years ago. Um, which was, you know, in itself a transformative experience for me as a poet and just as a human, um, because of just, uh, the community and the communities that I, um, was able to, uh, meet and be a part of and learn from and, uh, lift. So, uh, you know, and of course, as an artist, having your book published is just, you know, kind of an amazing experience. Uh, um, it's kind of difficult to describe. It's not anything that I had imagined for myself. So I wrote that title poem, um, called Courage and the Clock, and, uh- Since then, I was writing for years and publishing, um, pretty widely, um, for years as well. But I kind of likened myself to a little, uh, sparrow, um, because I was just kind of, uh, building it one tiny twig at a time. And I think also because, um, I'm older now, and I'm not thinking so much about, uh, book, book, book, book, book. I mean, I, I won't lie, I'm def- th- there is the undercurrent of that. But, uh, superseding that-
1Mm
Speaker 2is this idea of trying to be authentic, write the best and hon- most honest poems to my ability in that moment, you know, in that moment of completion. And, um, that's really was the driving force. A- although, you know, it's misleading to say that I did not agonize at times about, my gosh, why is this taking me so long? But, you know, I do a lot of work, uh, literary activism, as, as you, uh, mentioned, and I also... You know, I, I work full time. Mm-hmm. And, um, the people in my life take precedence over my writing practice. Mm-hmm. You know, people first, always. Um, and I think a lot of people can even do those things and still, you know, write and complete books, but I'm just not one of them. Mm-hmm. Um, so I just have to kind of learn to do things at my own, uh, pace, no matter how, uh, uh, bitter that herb tastes- at times. Um, but yeah, that was just kind of the, uh, the inner journey, I would say-
1Yeah
Speaker 2of that collection. Yeah.
1I like that, um, people first over poems because I think so often, I mean, in your poetry, the people play into the poems, and it's part of what you're writing about. Um, and kind of speaking to that authenticity, like, how do you feel like you access that authentic self or write into that authenticity in your poetry?
Speaker 2I think that it's only something that's become, uh, visible that I co- that I've become, like, really conscious of, um, over the last, uh, five years or so. Um, you know, to the point that I'd go back and sort of revise poems that I had already written, that were published, that were finished, and I was like, "No, I... That's not what I'm trying to say. I'm, I'm, uh, I'm skimming the sur- Estoy por arribita on that, and I'm just trying to dig a little deeper." Um, that's become the most important part of my writing practice, I would say. Uh, that's currently what I'm focused on. Um, that could change. Uh, but I feel like that's r- that, that idea of honesty is really, like, sunk into my bones now as a poet in a way that maybe it had not existed before. Mm. Not that I was walking around pretending or lying or anything, but it's really at the forefront of my mind when I'm writing. And I think that also I, I, that doesn't mean I feel like I have to be 100% confessional- Mm-hmm about my life, because I'm a very private person, and I, you know, I'm very careful, uh, what I share. Um, but I'm still trying to go there and share it in my own way.
1Yeah. I love that.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Themes: Music, Nature, and Mortality
1Um, so kind of looking at, um, your last collection, Tropicalia, and this new collection, um, it seems like music is a constant theme, right? Um, and I think in your last interview, you kind of talked about, um, being a musician and having a relationship to music. Um, and that seems apparent in your poetry through references to Stevie Nicks, to Jane's Addiction, um, Billy Bragg. So do you f- how do you feel like your relationship to music has changed through your poetry since Tropicalia? Is it still, like, a major part of your writing? Um, do you feel like it shifted any- in any way? Or, um, if you could kind of just speak to the importance of, like, musical references in your poetry.
Speaker 2Yeah. Um, well, music was a really big part of my life as a child. Mm-hmm. I mean, I would, um, and, um, obviously I'm a lot older, so I had like a little tape recorder that I would literally just, like, tape songs- Oh, yeah and hold them up to the radio so I could hear them later. Uh, and I always loved to sing, and I think it's very generous of you to call me a musician. I would say I was more of a dilettante. Uh, but I did write, you know, songs for our little band, and I did sing, and I, I loved that. I played a very bad bass guitar. Uh, I just didn't wanna stand up there without anything in front of me- Right between me and the audience. So I think that's why I said, "Okay, I'll, I'll, I'll play the bass. I don't know what I'm doing, but that's all right." Um, and then, uh, I married a musician.
1Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2And so, I mean, we have instruments all over our house. Yeah. Six or seven guitars. Mark bought a theremin last year. Wow. You know, Claravox. She s- she stands in the living room, you know, at attention. She's like a, a roommate, you know? And, um, you know, his drum kit is at his office at work because it was just, you know, at that point, I was like, "Okay, we don't have any room anymore." But, um, but it's wonderful to be with another artist like that because he really brings music into my life all the time. You know, he's always practicing or writing songs or, you know, we're playing music and, uh, so it's huge for me. I, I think what's a little different now, um, in Tropicalia was referring more to bands, and I do write, um uh, about, uh, a little bit about Stevie Nicks- Mm-hmm and this new collection, but now it's more about the sounds- Mm-hmm of the music, you know? Yeah. Guitars and notes and chords, and just kind of the soundscapes have entered, uh, the work. Um, I've I don't know if it's a conscious decision, but I realize that I've been making choices about not including specific pop cultural elements- Yeah in my work.
1Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2Because I want it to be more accessible across any time.
1Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2Um, but that doesn't mean if the poem asked for that- Yeah I wouldn't give it to-
1For
Speaker 2sure her. Um, but I, I, I think that the, it's e- evolved in that way. One thing I will say, though, is that writing songs was a lot easier than writing poems- Mm um, because I had no ambition whatsoever- Mm attached to that.
1Yeah.
Speaker 2So it was just purely for fun and creativity, and so that was a real liberating experience. Yes. And I, I, and I do try to remember that when I'm writing, uh, too. Uh, afterwards is when, you know, sort of the ambit- you know, puts on its, like, black top hat, you know, and shows up and says, "What are you gonna do with it? You know, where are you gonna publish it?" Um, all of that. Um, but when I'm actually in, in the midst of making it, I, I'm really not thinking about anything.
1Yeah.
Speaker 2I'm just kind of thinking about my own likes and what I'm trying to do and craft and all the things that we think about- Yeah when we write. Right.
1Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I've definitely noticed in your newest collection there's more of a shift towards the natural world- Yeah which was, you know, also in Tropicalia, but I think is more apparent in this collection. Could you kind of talk about what your major influences were, um, any, like, poets or just, like, experiences that you're kind of writing about in this new collection?
Speaker 2Yeah. Yeah. I've, um... That's great. I'm so, I'm so pleased that you noticed that because it's, it's such a big part of who I am. Mm. Um, ecologies and, you know, being outside among the trees and looking at the sky, and it's something that has been a part of, uh, my humanity since I was a little girl growing up in Miami. You know, sitting in the backyard. We grew up in a really small house and had a small backyard, but had a lot of, you know, fruit trees, like l- uh, lime trees, banana trees, uh, mango trees, a lot of birds. Mm-hmm. And, uh, you know, go to the beach a lot. We had a little boat and, uh, we would go out on the bay. So, uh, the, the outer world, you know, that natural world was always such a, a formative, uh, experience for me. Um, and, and certainly one that I carried into Tropicalia, and now I would say yes, even more so in Courage on the Clock, and I think it's because I moved to Santa Barbara-
1Mm
Speaker 2in California, which is, um, technically a city, but really a town. Mm. And, uh, you know, it's a lot slower And there's a lot less people and a lot less traffic, and I walk around outside a lot more, um, than I did in South Florida, which is very much a car culture in a lot of ways. Like, if you wanna get to nature, you have to drive to it.
1Yeah.
Speaker 2But in Santa Barbara, if you wanna get to nature, you can just walk.
1Yeah.
Speaker 2So it's kind of, you know, it, it's really been making its way into my work. One of the things I remember is the first time I wrote about the mountains. Uh, like I, I started dreaming. They started appearing in my dreams, which had never happened before 'cause I'd never lived by the mountains. Um, so that was really exciting. And then of course, once it enters your subconscious, then it starts going into your poems.
1Yeah.
Speaker 2You know, there's a funnel between the two.
1Yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah.
1That's awesome. Yeah, I'm sure the walkability makes that huge difference.
Speaker 2It really does. Yeah. It really does. And also for, I would say for my anxiety levels too- Oh, yeah is just, uh, not being in the car, that crunch of, you know, I-95 traffic, which it felt like, you know, the highway of death.
1Yeah.
Speaker 2But you had to take it to go everywhere in South Florida, and now I don't even get on the highway, like, hardly ever.
1Wow.
Speaker 2You know, I just, I joke around that all I do is just drive in a circle around this little town. I go to work. I go to the grocery store. I go home, you know?
1Yeah.
Speaker 2Um,
1but- Awesome
Speaker 2you know, it, it really suits me at the point that I'm at in my life right now. Yeah. Definitely.
1That's awesome. Yeah. Um, so kind of talking about other themes in your newest collection, it seems like time and, uh, the past plays a huge part. Uh, you know, referenced in the title from, like, clocks, um, but also in p- in poems like, um, uh, Sparrow-
Speaker 2Mm
1um, that mention just the relationship that you have to the past. Um, so could you kinda talk about, um- your book's relationship to time, or what it's, you know, how it feels about the m- the, the movement of time, just, like, the, the past and looking at the past now in this new collection.
Speaker 2I, you know, Claude, I really appreciate your, uh, careful reading on that. I, I really do because, you know, you're just writing the book on your own. I d- I've hardly showed it to anyone. I mean, I've been s- I started sending it out finally this year. Um, but I haven't really shared it a lot or talked to anybody about, you know- Yeah so the fact that you picked that up is so exciting to me because I really was- Yeah trying to write a lot about the passage of time, mortality- Mm uh, very much through the perspective of gender as I- Mm experience it. Um, and, uh, yeah, I, I think there was a lot of looking back at the past, um, which I didn't really write much about in my first book because I think I was still too close to it, and it was still too painful-
1Mm
Speaker 2for me. Um, but, you know, with age comes distance-
1Mm
Speaker 2and also kind of a sense of safety, um, for me at least. Um, I know so many people don't have that as they age. Mm. But I am very fortunate, and at this point in my life, I do have, you know, a very, uh, nurturing, uh, relationship with my partner. Um, I finally have more of a stable job- Mm and, uh, you know, all the things that come with that. Um, so I'm able to now kind of look back and write about those things. Um, i- interestingly enough, I think I've said it to my husband a couple of times, I'm like, "Ugh, I'm done writing about the past. I don't wanna think about it anymore. This next book is gonna be all about gardens and trees." And, you know, that's it. Um, but yeah, I think I really needed to write about those things-
1Yeah
Speaker 2uh, with the clarity that's offered only by time.
1Okay.
Speaker 2Um, and so I was able to do that. But sometimes when I'm, you know, before I send the book out, I always read, I always read through it, and there are still, even at this point, there are still certain poems where I get, um, em- a little emotional-
1Mm
Speaker 2reading them because I think about, um, that young woman and, or that girl, um, and I just wanna go back there. I just wanna reach back and s- you know, say, you know, "Don't worry, I'm, I'm coming," you know? I, I'm, I'm coming to help you. And she didn't know that, and those poems didn't, like, the, the world that those poems inhabit did not know that things would turn out, um, as, uh- As lucky-
1Mm
Speaker 2as they did for me, uh, because it could have very much gone the other way too, and did for a while.
1Mm.
Speaker 2You know, and very much did for a while.
1Yeah. I, I love how you articulated that. I think, you know, that kinda gratitude towards survival and, you know, I think that's apparent in, in, um, Sparrow in particular, just like the, how things could have turned out differently, but they didn't. And it- Yeah it feels like this new collection is very grateful. Um, and just, you know, with its eye towards the exterior to the natural, it seems like there's a slowness to it, um, just taking everything in, um, which, you know, it was beautiful to read.
Politics, Form, and Poetic Community
1And- Right um, and so tied to that, um, I kinda wanna talk about the political poems.
Speaker 2Mm-hmm.
1Um, both in Tropicalia and in, um, your new collection. Um, there's Uterus Heaven.
Speaker 2Mm.
1Um, and then, you know, in your past collection, there is references to protests. There's, um, Letter to the Right, um, kinda speaking from this place of, um, anger with the system. Um, and in Uterus Heaven, it's, you know, kind of following that same vein of, um, but also looking towards, like, hopeful futures and this kind of, you know, literal uter- uterus heaven of, like, all these people in conversation. And, um, could you just talk about, like, how your relationship to writing about the political has shifted, if at all, or, um, kind of y- how you approached that poem in particular in this new collection?
Speaker 2Yeah. You know, it's funny because, uh, Letter to the Right in Tropicalia, that was, um, the first time I had ever taken my rage towards, uh, the systems, as you me- as you called it, um, and put it into a poem. Like, it had never consciously occurred to me to do that. Maybe I was doing it, you know, in other kinds of way, like the Billy Bragg poem wh- while I was covering that protest. I was a journalist for many years in South Florida. And, um, so it, it was the first time. It, it was during, um... I think it was during the Obama administration, and they were trying to push through the Affordable Healthcare Act and, um, uh, the conservative, uh, right was You know, m- m- uh, advertising. Like, making these advertisements about, like, people pushing grandmothers off the cliff- Mm-hmm uh, and taking away their Medicare. I don't know what, but I was just, like, literally enraged. Mm. And I really didn't know what else to do. And so I just got up at, like, 3:00 in the morning thinking about it, and I just went to my desk, and I just wrote it. Mm-hmm. Like, and it just, that was it. It came out- Mm fully formed. Um, but then when Courage the Clock came around, I had learned that lesson, so I started, you know, channeling more of that anger, uh, into my work. Mm-hmm. And so "Uterus Heaven" came from, uh, a workshop. Um, I was, uh, awarded a fellowship from the Academy of American Poets for, uh, being a poet laureate. And, uh, one of the things that I did was, uh, create these community workshops where I would bring in poets that had read at the Mission Poetry Series, which I curated- Yeah for 10 years, and, uh, and teach these community workshops. And of course, I would take the workshop as well.
1Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2And so this one was taught by Crystal A.C. Salas, who is a wonderful poet, uh, in Los Angeles, a big-hearted human. And, uh, she gave us these poems, and she gave us this prompt. And she, in turn, had been inspired by a poem that Sara Borjas-
1Mm-hmm
Speaker 2had written, uh, "Pocha Heaven." And then so Crystal's poem in her collection, Grief Logic, is called, uh, "Nieta Heaven."
1Mm.
Speaker 2And so when we sat down to, uh, you know, when she sat down and told us, you know, gave us the prompt and I started writing, it was "Uterus Heaven"- Yeah because of everything that's been going on w- uh- Right you know, the total attack on our reproductive rights and, uh, you know, all of the, uh, violences that are being, uh, thrust upon us at home and abroad.
1Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think, you know, the prosaic form in that poem, too, really kind of hits home, just, um, the ideas that you bring up in that poem and the kind of repetition of the lines. Um, I really enjoyed reading that one.
Speaker 2Thank you.
1Um, I'm also curious to kind of hear about your relationship to form, like the prosaic form in particular. You also have "Ode to Stevie"-
Speaker 2Mm-hmm
1um, that uses, like, the little tilde in between, like, the line breaks. Yes. Um-
Speaker 2I love that tilde.
1Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Could you kinda talk about that, that move towards, um, working in that form?
Speaker 2Another insightful question because I l-- the last, uh, I realized that there were so many lyric poems in the book- Mm-hmm that I needed more narrative poems. And when I started writing the narrative, more narrative poems, I have some, but I felt like I needed more just to balance that, uh, exploration out, that exploration of time, gender, mortality, nature, love, the past. Um, I wanna, I, I want pe- I wanna ground people too. I, I don't wanna be so up in the clouds all the time. Um, so when I wrote "Uterus Heaven," it was a draft. Um, but then when I started, like, taking it out of my notebook and putting into my laptop, um, I decided it needed to be a prose poem. And then I did the same thing with- Mm "Ode to Stevie" and, uh, "Dear Sister."
1Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2And I'm sure there's another one I forget. "Brujitas."
1Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2Um, but the tilde, I, I utilized-- I had been thinking about the tilde for a while. First of all, I love the way that word sounds. Mm. It, when you're talking about music, uh, it has such- Mm a real music to it. Yeah. Almost like a cross between, to me, a bell and a horn.
1Mm.
Speaker 2Um, so I love saying tilde. And, uh, and also I love the movement- Yeah the shape of it, you know. It's, there's a real continuity and, uh, forward and, and backward motion to it. Um, you know, it's like, sort of like water, uh- Mm sort of migrating between the past and the present. Um, so I think that's why I put that in Stevie, "Ode to Stevie," um, also to emulate, um- You know, uh, sort of the twirling-
1Yeah
Speaker 2of, of Stevie Nicks, you know, her performance, uh, aesthetic. Um, so all of those things. But it's funny because some of those things I think about and I can explain now in retrospect, but a lot of those things just happen intuitively for me. And, um, that is primarily how I work, is on instinct.
1Mm.
Speaker 2Um, and I don't really think about why it's happening. And more that time has gone by and the longer I've been writing, the more I trust that instinct. Mm. And I don't even question it- Yeah uh, sometimes. Uh, when I go back to revise, then I might be a little more scrupulous. Mm. Um, but while I'm drafting, I just... This is what... You know, because there's so many choices in writing a- and you c- you can just freeze up, and I have frozen up, you know. And, uh, that's actually what happened to me with this manuscript- Mm is I kept on trying to make it more and better and, and I-- And even now I think, "Oh, I should have put these, you know, extra poems in here as anchors." And-
1Mm.
Speaker 2But I remember my friend Alex, uh, Litton, uh- Yeah Regalado, um, she's like, "What's going on with your book, dude?" And like, I'm like, "Oh, you know, I've been writing, I've been publishing." And she's like, "I think it's done" You know, in the way, like, only an old- Yeah friend can tell you. Yeah. You know? And she said it, and the way she said it was so Miami Gen X-y. Like, come on, you know? And, uh, she said it, and I just heard the gong of truth. Oh. Bong. I was like, "She is right."
1Yeah.
Speaker 2You know, I have to stop with this already and being so, like, precious. I, I was just trying to make it perfect, you know? So I think my new frontier, um, you know, I, I've, I've been, uh, acquiring, uh, the aesthetic of authenticity, trying to at least. Mm. And, uh, my new frontier is, um- To sort of push back against perfectionism-
1Yeah
Speaker 2you know? And, uh, just realize that I'm a flawed being, and everything I make is gonna be flawed- Mm and it doesn't have to be perfect. And once I started thinking that way, I was able to really finish that book and just start sending it out. And, and now I talk to Alex, she's like, "Well, what about if you add this poem or that poem?" I'm like, "No. I don't wanna look at that book anymore. It's complete- Mm-hmm it's done- Yeah and I'm working on something else."
1Yeah. That's awesome. It's, those friends are so important in- Yeah you know, moments like that. Yeah.
Speaker 2And
1kind of speaking to community at large, that last piece that you have on poetry and community- Mm in the manuscript- Mm um, you kind of talk about your journey and just, like, the communities you're
Speaker 2in. Mm.
1I'm kind of curious to hear, like, who are those, like, people in your life, or what were those, like, first experiences of being in a poetry community? And, like, how did they shift your own literary activism and community work?
Speaker 2It's funny, I was just talking about this, um- I feel like, uh, the friendships that I made in my MFA program, um, not all of them were intact. Not everybody, uh, I stayed in touch with. And then some people, you know, just didn't make it- Mm-hmm you know, and, and passed away, uh, during the AIDS epidemic-
1Mm
Speaker 2or, you know, addiction or just, uh, you know, not everybody is lucky enough to make it.
1Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2And, um, but the people that did make it that I remained friends with are still my friends. Mm. And, you know, Alex and I text each other on WhatsApp all the time, and, uh, she's in, you know, El Salvador. Um, but and it's funny the way we text each other. There's like no preamble. It'll be like, "Which word do you like better, this one or this one?" And it won't-- there won't even be a context, you know? Yeah. And then we'll just, like, talk to each other about our work very- Mm in a very fragmented but, but ul- uh, way, but also a way that we really understand what the other one needs from us, you know? Um, and we room together at AWP whenever we go- Awesome which is really special. Yeah, 'cause I get to spend this, like, quality time with her, and she gets to be with me when I'm, like, surly and like I don't wanna talk to anybody.
1I'm like, "Come on, Alex, stop talking to people. Let's go," you know? Afterwards, like, "I'm sorry. I didn't mean to
Speaker 2be so cranky." Um, she's awesome. And you know, Rick is another person that I've been friends with. You know, I wrote, uh, his introduction for the event tonight.
1Yeah.
Speaker 2And we've been friends for more than 25 years. I mean, it's been a lifetime. Mm-hmm. You know? So it's just kind of amazing to still be able to connect with them as friends, as, as family, you know, as, as humans- Mm-hmm and also, um, as poets, you
1know- Yeah
Speaker 2and collaborate on all kinds of projects together, teachings and readings. Rick is judging the Alta California Prize. Saw
1that, yeah.
Speaker 2So this just, it, you know, that's amazing to me that I get to work with him and, um, because that's the most important thing to me when I, when I, I try at least when I'm working with someone to work with somebody that I care about or that I, uh, or that I wanna get to know-
1Mm
Speaker 2you know, because I like them. Um, that is way more important to me than how prestigious that person is- Right you know, in terms of prizes and publications and-
1Mm-hmm
Speaker 2and all of that. Um- And, and that's not because I'm such a like, "Oh, I'm so earthy," and you know. It's just because it makes my life easier.
1For sure.
Speaker 2And it also deepens the caring that I have about a project that I'm working on- Yeah if the people involved in it are people that I love. Right. You know? Yeah.
Publishing and the Poetry Scene
1Right. Yeah, and kind of speaking to the, uh, Alta California Prize, um, you started that during your poet laureateship, right? Mm-hmm. Um, Santa Barbara.
Speaker 2Yeah.
1Um, what was like the decision that you had internally to kind of like, "This was my project. I wanna focus on publishing. I want there to be bilingual editions." Why was that, uh, I guess, your project of choice?
Speaker 2I think it's something I ha- I have a lot of ideas, I just don't have the stamina to execute them all. But it's something that I had been thinking about for a long time, and I wanted to do something for the Latina community of poetry. And I also, um, been watching Alex and all the work she's been doing as a translator- Mm and how passionate she is about it, and how important it is- Mm because it really just kind of opens up access between communities. And, uh, Crystal's book, for example- Mm-hmm Grief Logic, um, her grandmother had not read her poems-
1Right
Speaker 2at all because her grandmother didn't speak Spanish.
1Mm.
Speaker 2Now, her grandmother was able to read all her poems.
1Mm.
Speaker 2And her grandmother was a huge influence on her work. She, you know, she was also a poet. Mm. So, you know, it was, it was so rewarding to see that and, and be able to meet them and talk to them about that. Um, so part of it is trying to, you know, amplify the voices of Latina artists. Mm. And the other part is just selfishly me, you know, wanting to put some good into the world and, and feel good about doing that, you know? Yeah. And so I think it's a combination of those things. And I was really lucky too, because I went, uh, with that idea to Gunpowder Press- Mm which is a local press, and they were just like, "Sure, we'll do it." So they could have said no. I mean, it's a lot of work and I, uh, you know, obviously no one is in poetry publishing for the money.
1Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2Um, but, you know, they did it and they've been making these beautiful books and, uh- Mm we'll see. We've published six books, and this will be the seventh, and I don't know what's gonna happen after that. Yeah. But just take it as it comes, I guess. Yeah. Yeah.
1That's awesome.
Speaker 2Yeah.
1Um, what's, what was it kind of like for you to get involved in the Santa Barbara, like, poetry community, um, the literary scene? Um, yeah, I'm just curious to hear, like, what that experience was like for you.
Speaker 2Well, uh- My husband, we had been talking about leaving South Florida, and I was applying, uh, I didn't apply, I didn't apply at a lot, but I applied to a few teaching jobs, and it was duly ignored. Um, and then he got a job in Santa Barbara, and we said, "Let's go." And so I was so caught up in all the logistics of moving our lives that I didn't even think about what it would be like to move to a state that I had never been to-
1Mm
Speaker 2to a city I'd never, you know, I knew no one.
1Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2And so after I got there, and after the initial like, oh, I'm on vacation feeling went away, I was like, "I don't know anyone here." Mm. And so I started reaching out to people, and one of the people I re- I reached out to, uh, is Melinda Palacio- Mm who is currently the poet laureate-
1Wow
Speaker 2of Santa- the first Chicana poet laureate- Wow of the city, and, uh, doing an amazing job. She's an amazing person, um, a real light. Uh, and, uh, she, uh, I just, I reached out to her because I had met her at AWP, and I was like- Mm "Hey, I'm living in town." And she met me, and then she sort o- sort of kind of like pointed the way, uh, to readings and events- Mm some of which I went with her, and then I just started going regularly. It's a small community, and everyone goes to each other's readings- Mm all the time. And, um, you know, but it's also been growing, um, with, uh, different kinds of poets as well. Uh, Julian Talamantes Brolaski.
1Mm.
Speaker 2Um, they have a, they have some books out on Wave, and they're also a musician. And so they've, um, moved back or into town. I can't remember if they lived there before or not, but, um, they're bringing like a whole other element. I just went to, uh, the park that's right across the street from my house, and Julian brought in C.A. Conrad.
1Wow.
Speaker 2And it was like eight people. I, I, I have their b- I have C.A.'s book in my purse right now somewhere. Um, uh, it was just like eight people sitting around on the grass, and then C.A.- Wow reading their work in the dusk, you know- Yeah it was just, like, amazing. So, you know, there's all these, there's, like, the long-standing community, and then there's, like, you know, these spinoffs and people bringing, uh, different kinds of poets in. Mm. And, um, yeah, it's just been a real experience. And because the town is small enough and I don't feel so ground down all the time from city living-
1Mm
Speaker 2I can go to a lot of this. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And, uh, yeah, i- i- it's, it's-- I feel like I became I feel like in South Florida, I became a writer when I became a journalist.
1Mm.
Speaker 2Uh, and then the MFA, that was more like learning about community. And then as a journalist, I became as a wr- a writer. And then, uh, I became a poet long after my MFA. I thought-- I started thinking of myself as a poet more. And then in Santa Barbara, it was the poet and an artist.
1Mm.
Speaker 2So it, it's been interesting to see that evolution for me and, and the way that I perceive myself.
1Yeah. And like, and compare-- in contrast to, uh, Florida, would you say there's-- you've noticed similarities in the poetry community? Or like, I guess, what are, like, the differences? What are the similarities in, like, both of these poetry communities that you've noticed?
Speaker 2Well, I think when I was in grad school, like, we created our own communities- Mm you know, our own publications and readings and black box theaters on Miami Beach, um, before it was South Beach. Um, w- but that's where I lived actually- Mm during grad school. It was really cheap, and it was, it was a cool place to live, you know? Yeah. Um, so you know, we did that, but there wasn't really, like... I- if it, if it existed, it was really fragmented, and I wasn't aware of- Mm things that were going on outside of our little circle. Um- But now, you know, there's O, Miami, you know. Mm-hmm. There's the book fair. There's, you know, the Miami International Book Fair. I mean, there's all these cultural organizations that are not only bringing, you know, poets in for other poets, but going out into the communities, and the schools, and the centers and, like, engaging with everyone, um, through poems. I think that's one of O, Miami's mission statements is, you know, to have every person in Miami-Dade County encounter a poem. Wow. You know, and when I left 11 years ago, that was, like, 2.6 million people, so I'm sure it's more than that, and they do amazing work. Um, we don't have anything of that scale-
1Mm-hmm
Speaker 2in, uh, Santa Barbara. But, uh, we do have a lot of people that have relationships with poets and publishers all over the country. Mm-hmm. And so that's how we get people to come, and people coming in from LA, people coming in from Fresno, from DC, from El Salvador, you know, just different places. Um- Yeah and, and it's really through friendship, you know?
1Yeah.
Speaker 2It's a, it's a lot more organic and, uh, not as structured, and that, that is, that's really a beautiful thing. Um, sometimes, you know, it's, it, you're kind of hustling around for some funding. Right. Um, so, you know, it's got its challenges.
1For sure.
Speaker 2But it- it's, uh, it's very much a people-driven-
1Mm-hmm
Speaker 2Experience
1Yeah
Speaker 2Yeah Um,
Building a Literary Community
1you referenced earlier the Mission Poetry Series. Mm-hmm. I was, um, curious if you could just talk about the origins of that and what your experience has been being a curator.
Speaker 2Yeah. Um, so that, uh, was founded by two people, uh, Paul Fericano, um, who lives in the Bay Area and is an activist and a poet, and Sister Susan Blomstad, um, who I believe was a nun in, um, the order-
1Hmm
Speaker 2uh, whatever the name of the, uh, order is, uh, that's connected to the mission there. Um, and it was, uh, founded in a way that, uh, they wanted to create a place for, um, self-expression that felt safe and healthy and a way to connect with community members. Mm-hmm. Um, so they, uh... I'm trying to think of how many years this has been around now. 13 years, 15 years. I, I, I can't even tell you anymore. I think it was 2009.
1Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2So they did it for, like, four or five years, and then in 2014, I had just moved there the year before, Paul came to me, and we were friends at that point. I had read at the series right- Mm when I moved there. He's like, "I'm moving back to the Bay Area. Uh, I wanna give this series to you." And I was like, "No, no, no. I don't know anything. I don't know how to do this. I don't know anything about this. I don't know anyone here, and you should probably give it to someone else." And he's very, uh, gently persuasive and, uh, he just said, "Okay," but he just, like, kept on trying to do it, and finally I said, "Okay, I'll do it." So I did. And one of the things that I told myself was that I wasn't going to have any readings at all unless I could pay the poets. Mm. Because there was plenty of readings going on around town that were free for everyone, and also that poets were just donating their time and their work, but I wanted them to be compensated in some way. So for a while, Paul was fundraising, and then I started applying for little mini grants from Poets Writers. Mm. And then eventually, the last three or four years, I would apply for a city grant-
1Mm
Speaker 2which are small grants up to $6,000 that the, the city of Santa Barbara gives out to cultural entities. Mm. And, uh, I was able to, you know, secure some of that.
1That's awesome.
Speaker 2Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I was able to pay poets and, uh, and also make free broadsides. And s- you know, in the early years, we had, like, you know, a buffet table and, uh, you know, all, all kinds of little accoutrements that, you know, you know, flowers and plants and all of that. We sold books. You know, my husband is a- Mm bookseller for many, many years, so he sold, you know, the books for us. Awesome. And, uh, yeah, it was a real family affair. Yeah.
1That's so cool. I mean, so much of the, of the literary kind of citizenship is, like, either no pay or very little pay- Mm-hmm um, especially, you know, in poetry. Um, so that's awesome-
Speaker 2Yeah
1that you prioritize that because-
Speaker 2Because people need to get paid. Yeah. You know? We all need to, uh, have money in our pockets. That's why we work. Right. And, uh, you know, it's just... Uh, that's not to say that I haven't been involved in other readings- Mm that, you know, there was no compensation. Right. Um, and that's fine too- Mm but it can't all be like that.
1Right.
Speaker 2You know? And so I decided, well, I, I'm gonna be... this is gonna be something that is not like that, and this is gonna be something that actually, uh, uh, places additional values-
1Oh
Speaker 2on the art that we're all making.
1Right.
Speaker 2And so, you know, I mean, it wasn't, like, a ton of money or anything like that, but it was usually anywhere between 3 to $500 in that range. That's
1awesome. Yeah. So
Speaker 2I, I tried.
1Yeah. I mean, that's... Yeah, that's incredible. Same for, you know, publications. A lot of times- Yes no pay. It's, um, a lot of unpaid labor, so I mean, that $300- It really is is, yeah, major-
Speaker 2Yeah
1poetry money.
Speaker 2Yeah.
1Um, I was curious if you could talk a little bit about, um, your experience being a poet laureate fellow at the Academy of American Poets and what that kind of experience was like for you.
Speaker 2That was amazing.
1Yeah.
Speaker 2I mean, that was like winning a lotto.
1Yeah.
Speaker 2And I almost didn't apply to that. Like, I was so, uh, burnt out from work, and the deadline just kept on like, you know, rushing towards me like a train, and I was just like, "Ugh, I can't do it. I'm just too tired." It was the, it was the day of the deadline. It's like, "I'm just too tired. I can't do it." And as I was saying that, I was walking to my desk, and I was sitting down and opening up my laptop. "I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it." And I just kind of ignored that voice and like- Yeah this other drive, you know? Maybe it was ambition put on its top hat. Yeah. You know? And, uh, I'm like, "I, I'm just gonna do it anyway." And so I just sat there for like six or eight hours or something and- Wow did it, and, uh Really, you know, and I had asked some questions about it. I'd contacted them earlier. You know, I'd gotten all the information that I needed, and I knew what I wanted to do. Like, it was all in my head.
1Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2But it was just a matter of sitting down and really, you know, meticulously, um, stitching it all together.
1Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2And, um, and those, those applications are really cumbersome, I'm sure you know. Um, they take time and a lot of reflection, but I did it, and then I just closed my laptop, and I didn't think about it anymore. And then I got a message from Jen Benka, who was the, uh, president of the academy at the time, and, uh, she's like, "Oh, I wanted to know we," uh, um, I think it was an email. "I wanna know if you have time to talk tomorrow," and da, da, da. I was like, "Sure, you can-- I, I'm at work, but you can call me at this time." I remember turning to my husband, uh, Mark, and going, "Maybe she's just, like, emailing just to say like, 'Oh, thank you for your application, and you weren't selected.'" Because I just couldn't believe it, you know? And he was like, "Maybe, but maybe not." You know? Yeah. So when, uh, I talked to her on the phone, she confirmed that, yeah, that I had been one of the laureates selected. And, um, I was just thrilled. You know? I was thrilled for so many reasons. You know, I was thrilled that these� I could continue funding the Mission Poetry Series. I could create these poetry walks, uh, in collaboration with the library, which was, um, the community classes that I could create when every- everybody would write a poem. Uh, I collaborated with the library, and they created these poster-sized poems, and then we bought these frames for them with that fellowship, and we would display them at all these different public events in town. So at the farmers market or at the park or, you know. It was just really, like, amazing. And then, like, the poets would come and photograph themselves with it. And it was just so exciting to see people's faces light up when they saw their poems published and, and on display like artwork, you know. And then the, the Alta California Prize, you know, was just incredible, uh, working with our inaugural winners, uh, Nick Reiner and Crystal, who were the most wonderful partners to work with. They were just so, uh, brilliant and so filled with goodwill. And, um, we brought them in for the Mission Poetry Series, and they brought all their families from, like, different parts of California. There were, like, 70 people there. It was the most we had ever had anybody attend that reading. But it was just, it was so exciting to see how excited all their family and friends were for them And then for me personally as a poet, um, to have my biography and my poems at the Academy site, which is, you know, I've been a member, uh, you know, not every year, but almost every year since I was in grad school. Wow. That was, that was a dream-
1Yeah
Speaker 2you know, come true. Um, so it's really actually nice to talk about it a little bit- Yeah because I don't really think a lot about, like, the, uh, you know, wh- when something good happens to me in poetry land, yeah, it feels great, and then, you know, you're with that happy feeling for a little while, and then you just kinda, like, let it go and keep going-
1Mm-hmm
Speaker 2down the road. So it's really nice to, like, uh, reconnect with that sense of joy. Yeah. I remember walking around the neighborhood, nobody knew yet, and I was taking, like, a walk at dusk, and I was almost like, "Oh my God.
1I can't believe this is happening to me." Yeah. Um- That's awesome.
Speaker 2Yeah, especially, uh, you know, as somebody in middle age or late middle age at this point, and, uh, you know, everything in my life has always happened to me- Mm later than everybody else.
1Right.
Speaker 2Um, so I think this was just another instance of that. Yeah. And I, I also think that's why I'm so grateful all the time because, you know, I'm, I'm just older, and I've seen how, um, how badly things can go for people sometimes. Um, so any little en- bit of encouragement just feels like a gift to me.
1Right.
Speaker 2Yeah.
1Well, that's awesome. I think so true with so many marginalized artists and-
Speaker 2Yeah
1um, you know, overlap with mental illness or disability or addiction. There's just so many ways that, I guess, complicate our life, and so the celebrations are very important.
Speaker 2I have to remember that. Yeah. I don't do enough of that.
1Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I'm kind of curious what, um, you'd like to see out of, like, the literary world or community at large. Like, what kind of direction do you think that we need to go-- we need to move into? Um, what should we do differently? What kind of, like, worlds do you envision for, um, literary communities, either across, you know, the country or specific to Santa Barbara?
Speaker 2That's a good question. Um, I think I have two different parts to that question. The first part is I would like to see more partnerships between communities. Um, I feel that's something that Letras actually has done, um, many years ago, partnering with Cave Canem and, um, and you know, all the work that they do.
1Yeah.
Speaker 2It's a long list, and I, you know, I, I don't have it all at my fingertips, but I've, I've been witness to a lot of it. But I would like to see a lot more of that and not see our communities so, uh, segregated.
1Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2Um, so, uh, that, that's something that I would welcome. Um, I think for me personally, I'm becoming repulsed with the, uh, more poisonous sides of social media, you know, and the attacks and the glomming on and, you know, the letters and it's just... It, it, it's just all feeling like a bunch of white noise- Mm-hmm that are distracting us from the work-
1Mm-hmm
Speaker 2you know, that we do as artists and the work that we should be doing to sort of lift each other up. And I don't mean we should all just, you know, sit around holding hands and chanting all the time. Um, but I, I do feel that a lot of it just feels like mean girls to me, and I just don't care about any of that anymore. There's much larger tragedies unfolding, uh, locally, nationally, globally. Right. And I think we should really keep our eyes on who the real enemies are, you know, the military industrial complex. Um- Not just ours, you know- Right but all over the world. But ours, you know, we're, we're the ones that are funding so much of it- Right you know, and supplying so much of it. And, uh, yeah, I would just like to see, you know, more activism-
1Mm-hmm
Speaker 2and less pettiness. Mm. But, you know, even as I say that, I know I've been petty, you know? I, I know I have. It is just ridiculous to say I haven't. I mean, I think at this point I have the good sense to keep it to myself. Um, but those are my aspirations.
1Yeah. That's great. I love, you know, two solid things.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Advice and Closing
1Um, what advice would you have for someone, you know, especially in the Latine community, trying to get involved in, like, their own poetry community or kind of just trying to create their own kind of community or, uh, break into that space?
Speaker 2Yeah, I think that, that the number one thing would be just to go to other people's events.
1Mm.
Speaker 2You know, support other people. Um, not everyone is gonna write poems that, that are your cup of tea, and maybe you don't have to go to those, but you can go to some other ones. Or you can go to those too and not necessarily, you know, be, "I love your poems, but I love what you're doing." You know? Right. You're, you're a maker.
1Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2We need more makers. We need more of that, uh, energy in the world. And so I think there's a way to support everyone, even if they're, you know, they're not making work that you wanna read even.
1Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2Um, that doesn't mean you can't support that person, uh, in that act. Um, so I would say go to readings, you know, go to events. Um, most of those readings are free. Um, and start talking to people and, and telling them why you're there.
1Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2You know?
1Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, that's so important, especially I think now we li- we live in a age that feels so isolated, I think, at times because of what you were mentioning, just, you know, internet, social media. I think the pandemic kind of has accelerated that. And so-
Speaker 2Yeah
1making those connections and just showing up, yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah.
1That's very important.
Speaker 2And then, you know, I also feel like, um, differently abled folks maybe aren't able to do that.
1Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2But then they do have some options, um, in terms of Zoom, right?
1Right.
Speaker 2And so, you know, just try to find a way that works for you where you can, uh, connect with other poets and other people that are working in those communities, but always so it works for you 'cause everything doesn't work for everyone, you know? Yeah. And I think it's, uh, really important to take care of yourself. That's the other thing I would say is just really take care of yourself. You know, protect yourself. Um- Sleep, rest Mm-hmm don't feel like you always have to be doing and accomplishing
1Mm.
Speaker 2And, um, yeah, those two things.
1Yeah.
Speaker 2Community and community with yourself.
1Mm.
Speaker 2You know, solitude is, is, is a beautiful thing. I, uh, I love it. Yeah. I love being alone. I- before I got on the plane, uh, the night before, I told my husband, "You know, the thing that I'm looking forward to the most tomorrow is that for, like, eight or 10 hours, I'm gonna be traveling, and I don't have to talk to anyone." "I can just read my book, and I can watch Rings of Power on my laptop" And,
1you know.
Speaker 2Yeah. Like, it'll be really nice. But I, I, I think cultivating solitude is huge, um, for making art.
1Yeah.
Speaker 2I think it's really important to have stillness, and I don't think it's possible to make it without it. But again, not everybody has that luxury. Mm-hmm. You know? And it is a luxury. Yeah,
1definitely. Yeah. Thank you so much, Emma. This was great talking to you- Yeah about everything, and community work, and your books, and, um, I'm just very happy I had the opportunity to talk to you.
Speaker 2Thank you so much for all of your questions, Cloud. They're so thoughtful, and it's, it's been a real pleasure. This really felt like a real conversation.
1Yeah.
Speaker 2Thank you.
1Yeah. Thank you.